(Topic ID: 189841)

Help needed - Ball drain then nothing

By RonSS

6 years ago


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  • 21 posts
  • 6 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 6 years ago by frunch
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#1 6 years ago

Hello seasoned veterans, I'm new to pinball ownership but am learning quickly (I think ).

I've got a 1979 Game Plan Sharpshooter that has a few issues, the most annoying of which is a sporadic ball drain that doesn't register.

Seems to happen in conjunction with the drop targets, specifically the first "O" and another letter.

Here are some other likely related issues:

Extra Ball When Lit near horseshoe doesn't light. Bulb is good.

"O" target light works but does not light with target drop like others have. Also no shot sound when dropped as others do.

Sometimes score will register painfully slow, pausing, stopping. Flipper activation sometimes advances score.

MPU boots with sound and 6 flashes. Diagnosis shows switch 090 (10 pt switch - horseshoe? )

Also solenoid 160 - flipper relay enable makes no sound/movement.

Game did not have the drain issue until I tried working on drop targets that weren't dropping correctly - springs were adjusted, result is better but not perfect.

I've checked diodes so far, all looks good there.

Any suggestions where to begin?
Speak to me like an idiot, because right now I know very little.

Thanks for any help.

#2 6 years ago
Quoted from RonSS:

Extra Ball When Lit near horseshoe doesn't light. Bulb is good.

check the bulb socket and wires to it, with targets make sure the switch's are making contact

#3 6 years ago

I know the switch to the drop target is touching when dropped, but haven't tested it with a DMM.
I'll check the bulb socket tonight.

Thanks

#4 6 years ago

I know nothing about Gameplan but it sounds like you need to adjust some switches.

#5 6 years ago

When you say "adjust " you mean what? Move them, bend them? I'm still learning the lingo here

#6 6 years ago
Quoted from RonSS:

When you say "adjust " you mean what? Move them, bend them? I'm still learning the lingo here

Adjust (bend slightly) the prong in the middle of the switch between the leafs, the stabilizer / guide prong. It is the most rigid prong. You may also have to adjust each leaf individually. Also check to make sure the contacts are good on each leaf...sometimes they wear down, get chipped or burnt, and don't make good contact. If they are too close, they can get constant contact or arch. Adjust each switch, and then test it out by engaging the mech and checking the spacing / contact. For slings or other stand alone switches, adjust and then put the rubber back, then visually check to make sure the contact is good when engaged. For roll overs near the trough (outlanes, return lanes, ball trough), look under the PF to make sure good contact is being made (with a ball, not your finger due to weight / pressure parameters), and that the switch is releasing once the switch has been depressed. Sometimes switches get sticky over time.

You should check all the switches in the game while you're at it. If a switch gets constant contact, the mech for whatever the switch controls (drop target, slingshot, etc.) can actually burn out the transistor (tip) on the driver board from constant overload. It will usually blow a fuse first, but it can also burn out the transistor.

If you don't have the correct tool, get one of these:

switch adj (resized).jpgswitch adj (resized).jpg

#7 6 years ago

Check the MPU and driver boards for damage also. Sometimes damaged traces or diodes can make a game quirky, with regard to certain scoring features.

#8 6 years ago

Excellent description.

This makes a lot of sense.

Much thanks.

#9 6 years ago

Do you have the manual for the game? I can get the schematics from ipdb.org, but there's some info in the manual that might help us figure this out.

First off: Did these problems only begin after you fixed the drop targets? Do you have a DMM and soldering iron and know how to use them? (There's tons of help here if not)

I'm thinking that switch that came up in diagnostics might be stuck closed (aka making contact) and could possibly be the root of some of the other switch problems you mentioned. Does the manual tell you which switch the diagnostics were indicating? You said "Horseshoe" so I'm guessing it could be one of the 5 star-rollover switches that line the horseshoe loop. With the game off, I'd open the game up and get a close look at those switches--or whichever switch "090" is.

Make sure the wiring is properly secured to the switch terminals as well as the diodes. Wiggle the legs on the diode gently to ensure that it's firmly attached as well.

If you need to clean any of the switches, a business card or folded up piece of paper can be slid between the little contacts (the little round things at the ends of the switches that make contact with each other, carrying the electricity from one switch leaf to the other).

If a switch needs to be adjusted, the tool Colson posted is ideal. Definitely get one when you place an order for parts (I keep 2 because I constantly misplace them). In the meantime, you can use needle-nose pliers or a flat head screwdriver to 'pry' the leaves away from each other--but whatever you use to make adjustments to the switches--you want to bend the switch leaf at their *base*...the part of the switch leaf nearest the stack of brown spacers that the screws go through. Don't bend them at the end where the contact is!

Sounds like there's numerous issues, but I find it best to select one problem and work through it. Then see where you stand and proceed to the next problem. The 6 flashes on the MPU is a good sign, it tells us the game is booting properly.

If you need pics or further clarification for anything I've said, let me know. I remember when I first got started and didn't know squat about these games, so I will try my best to keep my explanations as simple as possible. I'm also jealous, btw...I've wanted a Sharpshooter for years... I will enjoy it vicariously once it's all fixed up! Good luck!

I've attached a diagram and added my laughably questionable ms paint skills to point out some of the jargon I used regarding switches.

vzv (resized).JPGvzv (resized).JPG

EDIT: I read your other thread about an issue with the start button and you said there was a connector that once wiggled got the game working. I'm betting you're gonna need to re-flow the solder to the header pins on the board that connector attaches to. Do you have any experience with circuit board soldering?

#10 6 years ago

frunch:

Firstly, when this game is 100%(ish) you are more than welcomed to make a day trip and play the hell out of this thing. Looks as though you are about 3 hours away.

OK - so I worked on the beast tonight. Removed the plastic over the bands by the drops. Saw a switch bent about 90 degrees! Yikes. I bent it back (by the base thank you), checked out other switches while there, everything else looked OK. Ran the diag and surprisingly no error codes showed. I was excited, and worried at the same time - this seems like a short or lose wire issue to me, so bound to be more issues soon. At any rate, played a few games with no drain issues. Woot!

To answer the other questions:

Yup, I've downloaded a boatload of schematics, plus I have the manual, so I think I'm good there. Learning how to read them, but I'll get there.

Only the drain issue was prevalent after messing around with the drops. The rest of the issues were present from the start.

I do own both a DMM and a soldering gun. Do I know how to use them? Well, , , , kinda.

I have no idea what switch "090" refers to.

I truly appreciate all the help!

This forum seems full of people trying to get things going, and that is a breath of fresh air!

#11 6 years ago

Awesome! Good catch! It seems possible that the switch got bent when you reinstalled the drop target banks. If you need any further assistance, hit me up or post to this thread and I'll see what i can do (I'm sure others will too, this community is great). Enjoy your game, man! If i find myself heading up in your direction, I'll let you know. I'd love to get some games in!

#12 6 years ago
Quoted from RonSS:

Saw a switch bent about 90 degrees! Yikes. I bent it back (by the base thank you),

That's what I figured. Glad that you got it working...and at least a few issues resolved. As Frunch offered, let us know if you need any more help, or feel free to shoot me a PM.

#13 6 years ago

OP, if you have not stumbled across this site yet, I highly recommend it. It helped me immensely on a GP Cocktail pin I had a while back, Vegas.

http://www.pinrepair.com/gp/index.htm

#14 6 years ago

Atari Daze:
Oh yeah, ran into that one. But thanks for the heads up. I saw a cocktail pin on CLIST not too long ago. It sold pretty quickly.

1 week later
#15 6 years ago

Ugh, ball drain issue happening again.

I did find a wire just barely hanging on to the ball kick out so I soldered that up. No difference. The ball will stick kick out just fine, it just doesn't register when drained.

While testing a funny thing happened, my drop targets would actually reset! Of course, it later seemed as though they did this more randomly than purposefully, but somewhat excited nonetheless - any information is good, I think.

I'm going to try and sort through some schematics tomorrow and test some board items. Those "Q" things I think. If anyone knows which item I should be checking don't be shy!

I'll also check the switch for contact, along with transistor/diode related to that line.

Should be a fun night of no pinball, , ,

Still looking for full size schematics for this Sharpshooter. The web versions are tiny and don't line up well.

#16 6 years ago

Definitely take a close look at the outhole switch, make sure it's making contact when the ball is resting on the switch. Also, have you cleaned the switch? If everything looks good at the outhole switch, it's probably not a bad idea to re-flow the solder to the male connectors on the mpu board. Not sure if you have any experience with that type of soldering, though.

Do you have a multimeter?

#17 6 years ago

How do I check for contact with ball resting? If my PF is up the ball will fly out. Do I just hold it in manually?

Is this an apron on or off task?

Recs for cleaning switches - just scuff contacts or use a solvent?

#18 6 years ago

If you need to clean any of the switches, a business card or folded up piece of paper can be slid between the little contacts. Gently squeeze the switch and drag the paper between the contacts once or twice.

I'd see if taking the apron off gives better access to the switch, that may allow you to test the switch with the ball. I say to test it with the ball because pushing the switch by hand might work, but it may still be gapped too wide for the ball to activate it.

#19 6 years ago
Quoted from RonSS:

How do I check for contact with ball resting? If my PF is up the ball will fly out. Do I just hold it in manually?
Is this an apron on or off task?
Recs for cleaning switches - just scuff contacts or use a solvent?

Never use solvent on the switches. If you are doing a total restoration, certain agents can be used once the switches are removed from the circuit. I wouldn't do that while they are wired up or the game is powered up. As frunch said, business card or triple folded paper usually does the trick. Check the contacts as you're doing this to make sure they are good. I would take the apron off, lift the PF, and just manually place the ball in the drain and visualize the switch. Sometimes a slight adjustment is just needed.

If you have the manual or trace the wire, in some games there is a harness with a connector down in the cabinet, and the other end is up in the backbox and they meet right around the pedestal (or slightly under). That connector and the pins can become worn and cause several issues with the ball eject, drain and kickout holes. That was an issue in my Gorgar before. Might not be getting contact, but I'm not sure if Gameplan games have such a connector there. The connector end from the backbox usually runs to the CPU or driver board.

#20 6 years ago

Found it, I'm a dope.

The ball kicker leaves on the switch were bent and touching continuously. I must have inadvertently rubbed (dropped) them against the machine when I removed the play field last time. Bent the leaf back to correct gap and instant Game On!

Hopefully I can close this thread permanently now. Not to worry though, I'm certain I'll have plenty of other posts with the title "Help".

Thanks to all!

#21 6 years ago
Quoted from RonSS:

Found it, I'm a dope.
The ball kicker leaves on the switch were bent and touching continuously. I must have inadvertently rubbed (dropped) them against the machine when I removed the play field last time. Bent the leaf back to correct gap and instant Game On!
Hopefully I can close this thread permanently now. Not to worry though, I'm certain I'll have plenty of other posts with the title "Help".
Thanks to all!

Nice!! Always start with the easy stuff, and post here anything you need help, for sure. Glad you got it back in action!

...and you may feel like a dope, but you learned something. Understanding how switches work is key with pinball machines. Just be glad it was an easy fix!

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