Do you have the schematic? If no, buy one, follow the entire start process thru checking all switches, esp. the score motor.

Did you try shoving a bunch of LEDs in it? (sorry)

I am not an EM expert but two things come to mind.

Make sure the coin switch wire or switch itself it not stuck or closed. It may be stuck in a continuous reset thinking a coin was dropped.

The other has to do with you saying the score reels were reset to zero by hand. What if they are not? Move them to a position with scores on them. Do they reset to zero on thier own? The game may be trying to reset the score to zero and not thinking it has achived this.

I'm sure bigger EM brains with have more for you soon.

Start with the tilt. Without a schematic, I can't say for sure, but my guess would be that with the tilt relay on and the ball in the outhole, the score motor will continue to run. Check all your tilts to make sure that it's not tilting. I think this is the crux of your problem. If I couldn't find a tilt that was causing the problem, I might even go so far as to disconnect one lug from the tilt relay just to see if it helps.

And as mentioned, coin switches are good suspect as well.

I don't think unplugging the back box will help. But you did get me thinking. (First I want to stipulate that I haven't owned a multiplayer Gottlieb for many years, and not since I actually learned the fine art of EM maintenance) Look for the Reset relay. In a single player game (and I'm hoping in a multiplayer as well) there is a two stage relay that does not stay energized, rather one coil sets it, the other resets it. When you start a game, the set coil of the reset relay locks in the mechanism. when the game completes the reset (all scores at 0 etc) it momentarily energizes the reset coil to unlock it. If your Reset relay reset coil is not working (or a switch isn't closing to energize it) it won't reset and the score motor will continue to run.

I apologize if this is not a straight forward explanation. If I had a schematic, I'd probably be a lot more useful.

I still contend however that if the tilt relay is coming on as soon as you power on the game, this is your first concern. Even if you do get the score motor to stop turning, it doesn't do you any good if the tilt is energized. I still think that's the first thing to find. And even if temporarily disabling the tilt relay is what you have to do, it just means that you wouldn't be able to tilt the game. Otherwise, it shouldn't adversely affect the game.

Agreed, tilt relay should not be active. But at the same time if it were active and all switches adjusted properly I wouldn't think the score motor would turn at all.

For most Gottlieb games you can remove the playfield when trouble shooting start up issues. It does allow for easier access to the lower cabinet relays. You do not want to remove the jones plugs from the back box as it needs to see the score reels reset to zero during the start up/reset.

Source;
http://www.pinrepair.com/em/index3.htm#start

1975-1978 Gottlieb Start-Up Sequence.
Multi-player games with Ax/Bx relays.

Inserting a coin or pressing the coin door start button (Gottlieb calls this the "replay" button) activates the "S" (start) relay. The start relay will lock on from its own switch and a score motor switch.
The "S" relay will start the score motor running.
The "S" relay and the score motor increment the total play meter.
On a 4 player game, the coin unit (next to the chime box) will decrement four times to the home (zero) position, and then kick up one position (to the 1 player position). Note if players 1 & 4 are lit on the backglass, the coin unit is not stepping up from the zero to one player position.
The "S" relay energizes the Ax relay through the Bx (Last Ball) relay (sometimes), but always thru a switch on the "S" relay, "U" relay, and score motor switch at 2C. This should energize the Ax relay.
The "R" hold relay pulls in and stays in, this turns off power to the Game Over relay (which stays energized when a game is finished).
*On a 4-player game, the Player Unit in the backbox increments until it reaches the Z1 position. The Player Unit stops and the Z1 relay in the backbox energizes. The score motor resets the player 1&2 score reels through the Z1 relay. When all eight score reels are at "zero", the Z1 relay de-energizes and a normally closed switch on Z1 (very top switch, looks un-natural) allows the player control unit to increment to the Z2 position.
*On a 4-player game, the Player Unit stops and the Z2 relay in the backbox energizes. The score motor resets the player 3&4 score reels through the Z2 relay. When all eight score reels are at "zero", the Z2 relay de-energizes and a normally closed switch on Z2 (very top switch, looks un-natural) allows the player control unit to increment to the "home" position (this is the "player 1, ball 1" position). (On a 4-player game there is a player unit switch stack for each player. This controls which set of score reels will score in the game.)
*On a 2-player game there are no Z1 and Z2 relays. Instead the player unit uses two switch stacks (which would be the player3 and player4 stacks) and the score motor to reset all the score reels, instead of the Z1/Z2 relays and the score motor.
Player unit is now at the "home" position ("player 1, ball 1" position). This is the P5A and P5B switches on the player unit, which is the switch stack closest to the backglass with only 2 switches. This causes the Ax relay to reset and the bonus unit to reset (if the game has a bonus unit). Often the P5A and P5B switches are dirty/mis-adjusted which will not let the score motor stop running.
If the ball is in the outhole, the "O" relay activates kicking the ball to the shooter lane. Note: the "O" relay will not activate unless the bonus unit (if the game has one) is reset to zero (there is a bonus unit zero position switch).
The ball passes over a trough switch as it is kicked from the outhole, which de-energized the "first ball" relay. Now the game will score. If this switch is closed after the "first ball" relay is de-energized, it will advance the player unit.
Otis posted a nice Gottlieb start-up sequence for 1975 and later Gottlieb 4-player games. (This is another look at the same sequence as above.)

Pressing the replay button with replays up will actuate "V" relay (replay button relay).
"V" relay locks in thru a motor 2B switch and will actuate "S" relay.
"S" relay will lock-in through its own switch and a motor 2B switch. "S" relay starts the motor running.
"AX" relay actuates and the "coin" unit subtracts through switches on motor 3C, "S", and "AX" relays and a switch on motor 1A.
"Q" relay de-energizes when "AX" relay operates. When "AX" relay actuates, the reset relays "Z1" and "Z2" are energized in sequence by rivets on the "Player" unit, through switches on "AX" relay.
Motor 1A steps the "Player" unit, through switches on "AX" relay and "P5B", to the 20th position energizing "Z1". When "Z1" is energized the 1st and 2nd player score units reset to zero through switches on motor 1A, motor 4A and "Z1".
When all the score units of the 1st and 2nd player are at zero, the player unit steps to the 21st position through a normally closed switch on "Z2" and normally closed switches on all score units of the 1st and 2nd players, actuating "Z2" relay. The 3rd and 4th player score units now reset through switches on motor 1A, motor 4A and "Z2".
The player unit continues to its zero position through the closed switches on "Z1", "Z2", "P5B" and motor 1A until "P5B" opens. When "P5B" on the player unit closes, "AX" and "BX" relays reset through motor 4C and switches on "U" and "R" relays. The reset cycle is now complete.

Start-Up Sequence 1975 to 1978

Starting in 1975 with Fast Draw/Quick Draw the reset bank was replaced on multi-player games with Ax (reset control), Bx (last ball), and sometimes Cx/Dx relays and a Coin stepper unit. Single players got just an Ax relay.

Almost every Gottlieb EM with a reset bank has an "S" start relay (single and multi-player games.) When this relay gets activated (by pressing the coin door start button), the game goes through its start-up sequence.

Inserting a coin or pressing the coin door start button (Gottlieb calls this the "replay" button) activates the "S" (start) relay. The start relay will lock on from its own switch an

The "S" relay will start the score motor running.

The "S" relay and the score motor increment the total play meter.

On a 4 player game, the coin unit (next to the chime box) will decrement four times to the home (zero) position, and then kick up one position (to the 1 player position). Note if players 1 & 4 are lit on the backglass, the coin unit is not stepping up from the zero to one player position.

The "S" relay energizes the Ax relay through the Bx (Last Ball) relay (sometimes), but always thru a switch on the "S" relay, "U" relay, and score motor switch at 2C. This should energize the Ax relay.

The "R" hold relay pulls in and stays in, this turns off power to the Game Over relay (which stays energized when a game is finished).

*On a 4-player game, the Player Unit in the backbox increments until it reaches the Z1 position. The Player Unit stops and the Z1 relay in the backbox energizes. The score motor resets the player 1&2 score reels through the Z1 relay. When all eight score reels are at "zero", the Z1 relay de-energizes and a normally closed switch on Z1 (very top switch, looks un-natural) allows the player control unit to increment to the Z2 position.

*On a 4-player game, the Player Unit stops and the Z2 relay in the backbox energizes. The score motor resets the player 3&4 score reels through the Z2 relay. When all eight score reels are at "zero", the Z2 relay de-energizes and a normally closed switch on Z2 (very top switch, looks un-natural) allows the player control unit to increment to the "home" position (this is the "player 1, ball 1" position). (On a 4-player game there is a player unit switch stack for each player. This controls which set of score reels will score in the game.)

*On a 2-player game there are no Z1 and Z2 relays. Instead the player unit uses two switch stacks (which would be the player3 and player4 stacks) and the score motor to reset all the score reels, instead of the Z1/Z2 relays and the score motor.

Player unit is now at the "home" position ("player 1, ball 1" position). This is the P5A and P5B switches on the player unit, which is the switch stack closest to the backglass with only 2 switches. This causes the Ax relay to reset and the bonus unit to reset (if the game has a bonus unit).

********Often the P5A and P5B switches are dirty/mis-adjusted which will not let the score motor stop running. <-----Check this *********

If the ball is in the outhole, the "O" relay activates kicking the ball to the shooter lane. Note: the "O" relay will not activate unless the bonus unit (if the game has one) is reset to zero (there is a bonus unit zero position switch).

The ball passes over a trough switch as it is kicked from the outhole, which de-energized the "first ball" relay. Now the game will score. If this switch is closed after the "first ball" relay is de-energized, it will advance the player unit.

^^ via http://www.pinballaustralia.com/startupG.htm

I think that the reason that I assumed the tilt relay would cause the score motor to turn is because once the ball lands in the outhole after a tilt, the score motor should turn to prepare the game for the next player or ball.

I grabbed a schematic siting here at my desk and took a look at the tilt relay though. Assuming that a multiplayer Gottlieb is set up the same way as this Kingpin schematic I'm looking at, the tilt relay doesn't have a keep alive switch like I was assuming it would. If that is different for a multiplayer, then I think my logic could still be sound. If not, the reset relay could be stuck. The start relay could have a misaligned switch. Or it could even be that the motor keep alive switch is not opening.

I'd isolate the tilt to be sure by temporarily disconnecting it, then inspect the reset relay. Inspect the start relay, and then inspect the motor. If none of those find it, I think you've got to have a schematic to go further.

The pinrepair info is good once you've poked the start button, but bitbyte indicated that this is an issue at power up, not at game start, so I'm not sure it's fully relevant yet.

I hope you're able to get it fixed, Solar City looks like a fun game.

Hi Bitbyte..

Solar City is a great game.. ive just overhauled mine and got her running nice and smoothly..

First of all the TILT light in the backbox WILL be illuminated when you first turn the game on.. this is normal. But.... once the game goes into reset this should go off.

The suggestion earlier to set the 1st player ( just work with Player 1 and get the game running.. then we can go to multiplayer issues if any) scores to anything but zero... take out the reels and manually click them over. Turn game off and on again and with credits ( how did you set free play by the way?) press the start button.. TILT should go off and score reels start to turn and set to Zero.. if this doesnt happen then you need to address the issue in the head with the score reels before attempting anything else... if ANY one of the reels does not register its ZERO point then motor wil turn continuously searching for this state.

Retropin, in a single player, the tilt lite is lit when the hold coil is not energized. If the game tilts, the tilt relay opens the circuit to the hold coil, but the tilt relay does not stay on. What your describing sounds the same. Is that the case?

Did it have these symptoms prior to you working on it?

Get a Solar City manual when you get the schematic. It will list specifically the start up sequence which is what you want to walk down one line at a time.

Mike O.

Yes.. its the same.. once Hold relay engages.. TILT light will go off. Its the first thing that should be noticed as the game resests... personally, id be looking at the score reels for this issue.. they may read ZERO on the reels as theyve been put there by hand.. doesnt mean that they register ZERO through the leaf switches

Agreed, but if the tilt relay is on, the hold relay can't/shouldn't be. If the hold relay isn't on, there's a lot of other things that can't happen. Which is why I still say, disable the tilt if you have to.

Bitbyte, are you sure that the tilt relay is on and not just the tilt light? I've just reread your original post again and I see it says "Triggers Tilt Hold Relay" Is it the Tilt, the Hold, or both that are energizing? If it's Tilt, I still say disable it. If it's Hold, then Retropin is right, you need to at least start with the score reel switches, if it's both, you have another issue entirely.

It HAS to be just the TILT light that is on.. stated in original post is that when machine is turned on and BEFORE START button is pressed, TILT is on and motor is turning... If TILT relay is on, it de- energises all else until reset again. I have schematics here.. let me take a look after work tonight. A few things concern me... "FREE PLAY is set".. Like i previously asked - how was this done? as there is no free play as such and if this is done wrong then we can have all sorts of issues depending on the technique employed. The game is obviously stuck in a state of transistion... im also wondering if it ever actually achieved GAME OVER status and motor is turning until this state is found. Did the switches get cleaned because there was a fault or did they get cleaned because it sounded like a nice idea?

Do you have the schematic? If not maybe someone can help.

The schematic will show every relay that can cause the score motor to turn, it's drawn on one line. Look at each one realy. That is the root of the problem at this point.

I don't like the sound of this at all. Permanently triggering credits? In general, the best way to set an EM on free play is to short out the zero position switch on the credit unit so that even when the credit unit is at zero, it doesn't know it is. It thinks it has credits. But if you've got switches "triggering credits" that sounds to me like the same type of situation as a stuck coin door switch. Can you easily identify this modification? If so, can you disable it? It's easy enough to put it back to free play later if this helps resolve the issue.

I don't have the schematic for this game, but looking at the Kingpin schematic that's here on my desk, the tilt relay is only on when a tilt switch is closed. It has no keep alive switch, so it's not meant to stay on much longer than a pulse. If tilted, the tilt relay will cause the hold relay to de-energize and lose it's keep alive status. The score motor should also have a keep alive switch that keeps the motor on until it reaches one of it's correct stopping positions. If this switch is misaligned, that could be the problem. As well as the reset relay that I mentioned earlier in the thread may not be getting reset.

Here's what I'd like to know, in this order.

1) is the tilt relay actually energized at power up or are we just talking about the tilt light on the backglass?
2) What exactly is the status of this free play modification and can it be removed?
3) If you manually reset the Reset Relay, does that improve the situation? (If you don't know what I mean by this, find the relay with the game off and manually trigger it in both directions. It'll become clear. Also, see my post earlier in the thread describing it)

No!!..This switch is momentary only and so it should act as a pulse.. im assuming that the leaf switches behind the START button have been held together?? Game will read the pulse at power up but it never delatches and so it can never reset properly.. undo the switch straight away and see how you go... also yes, you could well have a TILT somewhere.. either TILT plumb is touching or one of the slam switches is open.
To permanantly set for free play i normally just disconnect one side of the Credit decrement coil on credit wheel assembly while it has credits.. tape it up and if you need to go back to standard a quick solder to the coil lug is the go.

Undo that switch my man and see how you go....

Both of those methods of freeplay described here will work, but of the two I prefer the method of bending closed the leaf of the zero position switch. That way you can still see the credits move up and down as you play, lose and hopefully win games. Desoldering the decrement coil will eventually max out the credits and there it stays. zzzzzzzzzzzzzz I agree that closing a switch on the coin door is not going to work. There are a bunch of things that can keep the score motor turning and that is one of them as it will keep trying to add credits.

Even better, in my opinion, is to sacrifice an alligator clip jumper cable. It's just as easy to remove as it is to install. It just means you have one less jumper cable in your tool box. You do have to make sure you get the right leads and you want to make sure you get the insulated clips so you can slide the insulation up over the clip to help keep it on and to protect from shorts, but you don't have to make any modification to the game at all. Everything can still work as it's supposed to.

bitbyte, as you can tell, there's a bit of confusion about what you mean exactly. Any chance you can take a picture and post it here?

You are getting close, check the AX relay that it is tripping correctly. (see pinrepair video link others have posted, or google search). It sounds like most things are working correctly at this point, just the start sequence is messed up (pretty common).

I dont have schematics for solar city, but checking from Surf Champ schematics, following switches should be checked for Start relay: AX NC switch, Motor 1C, Motor 2B, Anti-cheat switch (I guess this one is on coin door).

Additionally check all tilt switches, I had some issues with them. There is 4 totally of which one is in backbox.

What comes to pressing AX by hand, that is needed probably as nothing engages now Start relay.

In Mustang, 2 player 1977 machine as well start-up sequence should be same:

1. Inserting a coin or pushing the replay button actuates 'S' relay (Start relay).

2. This relay will lock-in through its own switch and a motor 2B switch.

3. 'S' relay starts the motor running.

4. 'AX' relay actuates through switches on 'U' and 'S' relays. 'Q' relay de-energize when 'AX' relay operates.

5. When 'AX' is actuated the score units and player unit reset sequence starts. The 1st player score units reset to zero though the P3 switch stack on the player unit and motor switch 1A. When these units reach zero the player unit steps once, the 2nd player score units reset to zero through the P4 switch stack on the player unit and motor switch 1A. When these units reach zero the player unit steps until P5B opens. The score units and player unit are now reset.

6. When 'P5A' on the player unit closes, 'AX' and 'BX' relays reset through motor 1A and motor 4C and switches on 'V', and 'R' relays. The reset cycle is now complete.

7. Inserting additional coins or pushing the replay button will actuate 'CX' relay through switches on 'U' and 'S' relays and a switch on motor 1D. The replay button circuit opens when 'CX' relay actuates.

8. Place the ball in the out hole. The ball return switch closes and completes the circuit to 'O' relay through the normally closed switches on zero position 'Bonus' unit, motor 1C, motor 2B, 'Q', and 'AX' relays. 'O' relay locks-in. Through switches on motor 4C, motor 1A, 'BX' and 'O' the ball return coil actuates kicking the ball onto the runway.

9. The remaining balls that enter the outhole are kicked across the trough switch which pulls in 'P' relay. 'P' relay runs the motor. Switches on 'K', 'U', motor 2C, 'P', 'BX', and motor 1A advances the 'Player' unit the required number of steps determined by the 'Player' unit switches and the 'CX' relay.

10. The 3-5 ball adjustment changes the number of balls played per game. The third or fifth ball leaving the playfield will trip the 'last ball' relay 'BX' through switches on 'K', 'U', rivets on the player unit disc and 'O' relay.

You are in step one, you need to find out why Start relay is not engaging. That might be due how free play is set up. In mine it is setup by credit unit swithes in backbox. Both switches are closed all the time and taken away from unit.

Guys, this thread is great! I jus got my first gottlieb EM and the terminology is just different enough from the Williams and Bally that I am used to. I have a few issues with C37 but have made no repair attempts yet. I have schematic and manual and this thread is helping it all make sense! Thanks a ton!

On the Solar City Startup it is

4. 'AX' relay actuates through switches on 'DX' and 'S' relays. 'Q' relay de-energize when 'AX' relay operates. Note use of DX switch not U as posted above on the Mustang startup. Step 1-3 above are match Solar City startup.

I can probably dig up the schematic if needed