(Topic ID: 215116)

Help! Major recurring problem with Rustoleum 2x


By mrm_4

1 year ago



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  • Latest reply 4 months ago by Zitt
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    There are 97 posts in this topic. You are on page 2 of 2.
    #51 1 year ago

    great thread, I have experienced similar "crows feet" when using the spraymax 2x before also.

    I messed with it and attributed it to how thick I laid down the coat and how long I let it dry combined with I was painting in my garage built spray booth during winter where I used a torpedo to heat up the garage before spraying but it would cool down a bit over night/before next layer.

    I found I got better results if I did a few very light coats to build up a color and then just slightly heavier for the final pass to make sure it was super clean with no flash. Then I made sure to keep the heat up high for at least 2hrs after done spraying for the night and also wait a week or so between coats. I would then apply the next stencil and lightly (grey scuff pad) scuff the next spots to be painted, tack them, and leave the cabinet again for a day or 2 to off gas after opening up from the scuffs. This process seemed to help greatly.

    It is a super PITA and I can commiserate with your issues.

    #52 1 year ago
    Quoted from vid1900:

    Just remember that anything rattle-can has mega solvents.
    Those solvents often violently react with many old paints that are lacquer based.
    They even sometimes violently react with their own paint if it's too thick or the last coat is not completely cured.
    You never have that problem with Createx, or when you have the Hardware store color match in latex.

    This is so very true. Waking up the sleepy lacquer and moisture and other substrate problems.

    #53 1 year ago

    Agree with last post. I would put money on a fix being to use extremely light coats. Barely enough to cover and move on. The cure happens fast so you run a very low risk of the solvent reacting with old paint. With heavier coats the top layer starts to cure and effectively traps the remaining solvent between the old and the top skin of the new (thick) coat. When this happens the trapped solvent has a ton of time to re-activate old paint and that happens unevenly and you get wrinkles.

    Most every problem I have ever had when painting was because I put it down to thick. There are of course other ways to screw this up (I know because I have done it) but I would guess it’s just too thick. You really don’t want any more paint than required to yield a solid color- in fact the factory coats on these games were so thin you could see through them- so it will actually look better (if better is more original) if done very very lightly.

    #54 1 year ago

    Two words: Montana Gold. I have about 1/67th the experience as some of the guys in this thread, but Montana Gold paint has never let me down

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    #55 1 year ago

    Finally...
    Now the 2 week wait to stencil.

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    #56 1 year ago

    Ok so after a side discussion with arcane he pointed out that what I was using wasn't a primer after all... which probably was my problem all along. I looked up the products and gave a few pics to reference. I just hope someone new to painting cabs sees this thread and has better success than me. I'm actually pretty mad at myself and embarrassed that I missed it when I bought 8 cans of the wrong thing. Considering at my day job I preach to my employees to "pay attention to the details" live and learn I guess.

    So I bought Flat White Ultra Cover Paint and Primer which is just the normal paint like all the other colors, instead of buying PRIMER, specific to priming surfaces for paint.

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    Primer (resized).jpg

    #57 1 year ago

    just to make sure I understand, do you think your entire issue with the crows feet was due to your base coat being the combined paint/primer instead of the straight primer?

    anything else you think cause it?

    #58 1 year ago
    Quoted from Whysnow:

    just to make sure I understand, do you think your entire issue with the crows feet was due to your base coat being the combined paint/primer instead of the straight primer?
    anything else you think cause it?

    I think its a few things:

    1.) I laid down a paint and primer combo on the back of a cab that I sanded the paint off of but didn't sand too deep into the wood (which may or may not have had moisture, that's speculation. I feel the wood is fine but Im not dismissing it)
    2.) I painted yellow paint and primer combo over white paint and primer combo that wasn't FULLY CURED (the true issue)
    3.) I waited 3 weeks to paint over the mistake after lightly sanding down the crows feet and still had the problem, which I think means the yellow paint wasn't allowing the white paint to cure (should've sanded it all off after the issue started)

    If I can go back in time, sand this sucker down more than I did at first, buy just straight primer, lay it down, wait a week and then paint the Yellow, I bet this thread wouldn't exist.

    Lessons learned:
    Sand into the wood with old cabinets if you are taking the old paint off, don't do this "lightly sanding" crap, if you are sanding it down then do it right
    Actually use a PRIMER
    wait the appropriate cure time and test to see if its cured like Vid explained with smell, feel, etc.
    Lay down your base color in light coats and at all costs avoid pooling of the paint, light coat wait a few mins light coat wait a few mins and so on
    have patience and wait what the suggested time is on the can
    and finally don't cry on Pinside and blame a company for putting out a faulty product because you make newb mistakes

    #59 1 year ago

    Matt,

    Don't beat yourself up for this. I think you suffered enough already.
    Your experience will serve other pinball enthusiasts, starting with me.
    Let's look at the bright side: your cabinet is almost finished and gorgeous to look at. I can see some plays looming in the horizons....

    Yves

    #60 1 year ago
    Quoted from mrm_4:

    I'm actually pretty mad at myself and embarrassed that I missed it when I bought 8 cans of the wrong thing. Considering at my day job I preach to my employees to "pay attention to the details" live and learn I guess.

    Hey we are all human, it happens!
    It can be fixed right? Then no big deal, like you said, lesson learned.
    Thanks for sharing the oversight!

    #61 1 year ago

    I agree, dont beat yourself up.

    Thanks for sharing and letting us all know/learn from your experiences.

    #62 1 year ago

    As far as Rustoleum primers go, I like this one. It lays down nicely and is sandable.

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    #63 1 year ago

    Double post

    #64 1 year ago

    There are many possible causes for your dilemma but most likely you’ve had a zone 2 experience. Paint dries/cures in three zones. Zone 1: the paint has flashed (not cured) and will still accept more coats of paint. Zone 2: the paint is beginning to cure and will react (reject more costs of paint). Zone 3: the paint has cured and can be sanded and accept new coats of paint. Read and understand the Product Sheets for any refinish materials you use. Also, remember that dry times are at 70 degrees and 50% relative humidity. Every 15 degree increase in temperature will cut the dry time in half. Every 15 degree decrease in temperature will double the dry time. Most paint does not cure below 55 degrees.

    #65 1 year ago
    Quoted from jab:

    There are many possible causes for your dilemma but most likely you’ve had a zone 2 experience. Paint dries/cures in three zones. Zone 1: the paint has flashed (not cured) and will still accept more coats of paint. Zone 2: the paint is beginning to cure and will react (reject more costs of paint). Zone 3: the paint has cured and can be sanded and accept new coats of paint. Read and understand the Product Sheets for any refinish materials you use. Also, remember that dry times are at 70 degrees and 50% relative humidity. Every 15 degree increase in temperature will cut the dry time in half. Every 15 degree decrease in temperature will double the dry time. Most paint does not cure below 55 degrees.

    Great information.

    #66 1 year ago
    Quoted from jab:

    There are many possible causes for your dilemma but most likely you’ve had a zone 2 experience.

    I would also have to think so.
    I had this experience applying spray on metal.
    A Rust-Oleum Rep explained to me that during this stage, the solvents of the 2nd coat
    can eat the solvents of the first coat. Ever since, I've applied thin coats within' a half hour
    of each other. Haven't had a problem since..

    #67 1 year ago

    I'm in Ohio as well. Just finished a NGS using 2X. No problems at all. Not a hint.
    3 days, 3 colors applied.
    Your surface was contaminated, and you didn't realize it.

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    #68 1 year ago
    Quoted from Jjsmooth:

    I'm in Ohio as well. Just finished a NGS using 2X. No problems at all. Not a hint.
    3 days, 3 colors applied.
    Your surface was contaminated, and you didn't realize it.

    #69 1 year ago

    Wow...what timing. Like a dummy, I strayed from the norm on the current project. I normally use Molotow Belton Premium for cab restorations (I have about 20-25 cabs under my belt so far), but this time I tried Rustoleum for that glossy "wet look" on a WMS Pharaoh restoration. For no reason really other than to work with a different product and achieve a glossy look.

    And I got the crow's feet like above. I primed first with my choice of primer which has never let me down, layed down the black and then yellow stencil layer. Only on the final red layer did it crinkle. I was quite mad, to say the least. Out came the paint stripper and I took it all down to start again because any attempt to fix it was fruitless.

    I've got it primed again and it's waiting for the Molotow paint to arrive. (Another wrench in the operation is that the Molotow has been recalled up here in these parts by Environment Canada, so I had to find a new source and have it shipped over.) (And of course it's a holiday here Monday, so delivery will be pushed back to Tuesday.) (It's been quite a frustrating week, as you can see.)

    #70 1 year ago
    Quoted from spiroagnew:

    Wow...what timing. Like a dummy, I strayed from the norm on the current project. I normally use Molotow Belton Premium for cab restorations (I have about 20-25 cabs under my belt so far), but this time I tried Rustoleum for that glossy "wet look" on a WMS Pharaoh restoration. For no reason really other than to work with a different product and achieve a glossy look.
    And I got the crow's feet like above. I primed first with my choice of primer which has never let me down, layed down the black and then yellow stencil layer. Only on the final red layer did it crinkle. I was quite mad, to say the least. Out came the paint stripper and I took it all down to start again because any attempt to fix it was fruitless.
    I've got it primed again and it's waiting for the Molotow paint to arrive. (Another wrench in the operation is that the Molotow has been recalled up here in these parts by Environment Canada, so I had to find a new source and have it shipped over.) (And of course it's a holiday here Monday, so delivery will be pushed back to Tuesday.) (It's been quite a frustrating week, as you can see.)

    This sucks that it happened like this. That’s my fear, I’m going to get to my last stencil and it’s gonna wrinkle up. I’m waiting 2 weeks between colors because I don’t want to take any chances. Good luck with second attempt.

    2 weeks later
    #71 1 year ago

    I experienced "the wrinkle effect" the other day. My base coat was 3 weeks old and definitely cured. It had gotten pretty dusty though so I wiped it with a naptha dampened rag. I wonder if rustoleum reacts with naptha? I let the failed coat cure for a week, sanded it smooth, wiped with a tack cloth (no solvent on a rag this time) and reapplied the paint. I didn't spray the paint any differently but this time it went on great. No more naptha between rust-oleum coats for me.

    #72 1 year ago

    Ughhh such a bummer after waiting 3 weeks. The sides of my cabinet are at 3 weeks. I almost did the stencil for the red today and got side tracked. I’m still nervous about it. Maybe next weekend I’ll try to stencil. That’ll make it a month. I’ll be sure to avoid the naphtha. Thanks for the info.

    #73 1 year ago

    Yes, Naphta is a killer on these glossy paints.

    While painting the back of the cabinet I, too, (like an idiot) used Naphta to clean up and remove the dust particles before painting. In a couple of places, the wrinkles started appearing. Bummer.

    I stopped immediately, let everything dry again, sanded to the best possible result and try to re-spray again. The result was a little bit better but the wrinkles tends to re-appear so slightly.

    I am not using these paints ever again, for my next projects. I will go with Latex paint, sprayed.

    Yves

    #74 1 year ago

    I'm suspicious that this might be an issue of solvent incompatibility? I understand that rattle can products are loaded with solvents. Maybe residue from other solvents is enough to cause an adverse reaction with the solvents in the rattle can product?

    #75 1 year ago

    Matt,

    I just got my stencils from Pimball Pimp. Needless to tell you I am very hesitant to ruin the cabinet/lightbox and the stencils with these Rustoleum Glossy spray paints.
    I noticed that you have had some luck with the lightbox, applying the red and the black.

    I am thinking about trying to insulate the yellow coat with Polycrylic. I have used that clearcoat on all my pinball cabinets with an enormous success. It dries very clear, smooth and is very resistant to the touch and handling. I may try to put some Polycrylic on an inconspicuous area of Mata Hari and then use the stencils on top of that. I am still debating.....

    Yves

    #76 1 year ago

    I’m going to bite the bullet and do the red this week. It’ll be 6 weeks for the front and 4 weeks for the sides this weekend. If it wrinkles on me, my next post will be a video of me dousing the cabinet in gasoline and lighting it on fire.

    #77 1 year ago

    I used 2X Rustoleum on my Star Trek makeover with no issues.

    Laid down the primer and then sanded with 320 and replied twice and then sanded with 400. Laid down the color and waited about 2 days between colors and it turned out great.

    I think your surface prep might be the problem???

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    #78 1 year ago
    Quoted from mrm_4:

    I’m going to bite the bullet and do the red this week. It’ll be 6 weeks for the front and 4 weeks for the sides this weekend. If it wrinkles on me, my next video will be me dousing the cabinet in gasoline and lighting it on fire.

    I'm going to make you sick.....LOL

    Last Friday night I stripped/sanded down the cab on my Evel Knievel.... Painted it White about 7PM Friday, Rustoleum Ultra 2X Semi Gloss white.... Saturday morning around 10 AM applied the Pinball Pimp Stencil, shot Rustoleum Ultra 2X Gloss Apple Red, 3 light coats with 15 mins in between them, Sunday afternoon applied last Stencil & shot Rustoleum Ultra 2X Gloss Navy Blue...3 light coats also with 15 mins in between.... pulled the stencil about 20 minutes after last coat & perfect as usual.... I don't blame you for waiting so long, especially with all the trouble you've had, but just pointing out to others, that it may not be 100% necessary...

    Only other advice I can give is to make sure you are using light coats, so the solvents don't have time to attack the lower coat. Don't go thick until your final coat, & even then I don't go crazy thick, just enough to get the gloss level to where you want it.

    #79 1 year ago

    I also used regular Rustoleum for the color on my Flash Gordon makeover with the 2X primer.

    Other than that paint being kind of thin and wanting to run, so you have to be go slow and not get too heavy on the coats, I think it turned out great too.

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    #80 1 year ago
    Quoted from timab2000:

    Laid down the primer

    specifically what primer did you use?

    #81 1 year ago
    Quoted from Whysnow:

    specifically what primer did you use?

    Rustoleum 2X

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    9 months later
    #82 9 months ago

    About to paint another cab soon and plan on having better results now that I understand how to apply and have a better understanding of how 2X behaves. But for this project I switched primers based on suggestions from others. I’m using the 2 in 1 filler. I noticed this stuff dries extremely fast and the can says ready to sand after 4 hours.

    For those that use this, what kind of sanding are you doing? Initially my thoughts were to use a 400 grit and just evenly sand the whole surface. I ask because this stuff is high fill and I notice a lot of dust coming off when I just rub it by hand. Am I looking for a certain appearance or am I over thinking it?
    The last thing I want is to finish this project and the top coats start coming off and then someone say “probably didn’t sand it enough”
    Also what are you using to wipe it down before applying the 2X?

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    #83 9 months ago

    That primer works very well. You almost cannot use it wrong because you can be sanding it 20 minutes after applying it. If you are happy with the surface fill, I don't even think you need to go as fine as 400 but 400 is fine too, I paint at 200 for primer. I do use a quick wipe of Naptha to de-dust it. You will know immediately if your sanding was good enough as you spray on the paint layer. Never wet sand that primer, it is not a sealer, the water can cause grain rise. Only wet sand if there is a layer of paint somewhere underneath.

    I had a disaster of my own on a Xenon using the 2x Painters Touch paint. I found it got really stringy when you pull off the stencils. It is fine for the base layer. In Canada, Rustoleum uses the brand name Tremclad for its rust paint but they have an equivalent in the US under the Rustoleum name. I use the "oil based technology" spray paints. Basically they are the closed thing to old-school enamel spray paint. They smell different from 2X, smells like paint did when I was younger. The recoat within 1 hour or after 24 hour instructions are within 1 hour or after 48 hours so between coats takes longer. I wait 72 hours to avoid the crows feet, I have had plenty of them. Wait long enough and things are fine.

    Actually, I wet sand at about the 12-24 hour point so that an additional 48 hours cure has penetrated far in. If you wet sand right before a recoat you can cut away the cured part too much and raise wrinkles in a local area. I never saw that point mentioned in the thread.

    #84 9 months ago

    I used the Killz primer on everything and then the 2x rattle cans and had no issues. Going to use the same products on my Sinbad cabinet this weekend.

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    4 months later
    #85 4 months ago
    Quoted from mrm_4:

    About to paint another cab soon and plan on having better results now that I understand how to apply and have a better understanding of how 2X behaves. But for this project I switched primers based on suggestions from others. I’m using the 2 in 1 filler. I noticed this stuff dries extremely fast and the can says ready to sand after 4 hours.
    For those that use this, what kind of sanding are you doing? Initially my thoughts were to use a 400 grit and just evenly sand the whole surface. I ask because this stuff is high fill and I notice a lot of dust coming off when I just rub it by hand. Am I looking for a certain appearance or am I over thinking it?
    The last thing I want is to finish this project and the top coats start coming off and then someone say “probably didn’t sand it enough”
    Also what are you using to wipe it down before applying the 2X?[quoted image]

    How did that Rustoleum 2 in 1 filler primer work out for you? Just reading this thread is giving me palpitations for my upcoming paint job. I’m debating between the 2 in 1 & the Kilz indoor/out door primer.

    #86 4 months ago
    Quoted from HoakyPoaky:

    How did that Rustoleum 2 in 1 filler primer work out for you? Just reading this thread is giving me palpitations for my upcoming paint job. I’m debating between the 2 in 1 & the Kilz indoor/out door primer.

    I live by this stuff now! Highly recommend it.

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    #87 4 months ago

    One thing that I’ve learned as I do more and more cabs is THIN LAYERS. And the definition of “layer” doesn’t mean completely coated. A fine mist to get some color, set a timer for 4 minutes. Shake the can for a minute, fine mist, repeat until you’re happy with that look. Might take forever but it’ll look amazing and no wrinkles, and the paint CURES faster this way. The misleading thing about this paint is thinking it’s dry and being ready for a new color. If you laid down paint 2 days ago too thick and it isn’t cured and you try to lay another color the odds of wrinkling are way high.

    #88 4 months ago

    I've had a lot of experience painting. As others have said these rattle cans are loaded with solvents. This is to make it thin to help avoid orange peel and to make it dry fast. Fine if you are spraying one color and done as most DIY'ers are just going to spray it on something and probably go on too thick and be done with one layer. Not fine for what you are trying to accomplish here. You are right about misting on layers as it will help not cause the spidering. What is causing the spidering is the solvents still escaping from the coat you are laying a new coat on top of but being trapped under this new coat. You can get lucky most of the time and not have an issue. However quite often you will have this issue and it seems no matter what you do you can't avoid it.

    I never use rattle cans anymore. I use premium 2 part automotive paints and hvlp. But I'm pretty dang serious when I paint stuff. You can even use water based paints from a premium company like Sherwin Williams and thin with water if you can wait on drying time. Thin with acetone it you want it to dry quicker. Using an hvlp isn't for the meek. It takes practice getting the right speed and distance combination to lay it slick without it running. Its been worth it to me. I've painted pins, coffee tables, restored costco metal chair/stools, headlight lenses and even two of my own cars using either water based paints or two part base paint and 2 part clear coats and I'm just a hobbyist.

    #89 4 months ago
    Quoted from mrm_4:

    One thing that I’ve learned as I do more and more cabs is THIN LAYERS. And the definition of “layer” doesn’t mean completely coated. A fine mist to get some color, set a timer for 4 minutes. Shake the can for a minute, fine mist, repeat until you’re happy with that look. Might take forever but it’ll look amazing and no wrinkles, and the paint CURES faster this way. The misleading thing about this paint is thinking it’s dry and being ready for a new color. If you laid down paint 2 days ago too thick and it isn’t cured and you try to lay another color the odds of wrinkling are way high.

    Yes that seems to be the key. Thin coats. My question is if it takes forever laying down the thin coats every 4 minutes, won’t you get tearing when you go to pull up your stencils? I thought the whole key them is to pull them up while the paint is still wet & before it drys.

    #90 4 months ago
    Quoted from HoakyPoaky:

    Yes that seems to be the key. Thin coats. My question is if it takes forever laying down the thin coats every 4 minutes, won’t you get tearing when you go to pull up your stencils? I thought the whole key them is to pull them up while the paint is still wet & before it drys.

    Well on the last coat once you like the look pull the stencils. The 4 minute wait is for laying another coat. But if I decide “ok it looks pretty good this is my last coat” as soon as I finish spraying I start lifting. And I usually spray slightly heavier on the last coat but not over the top, just try to get an even sheen and complete coverage and pull

    #91 4 months ago

    Thanks for the advice. I'll be spraying in 85+ temps & 25% humidity, so I have a feeling that all the coats are going to dry & cure ultrafast on me. I'll just have to try my best.

    What was your process for sanding prep? I've heard 80g to strip the paint, which I'm working on now. Then do your cabinet damage repairs. Then 80g to sand the repairs, then passes with 150g & 220g. Then prime with multiple coats & sandings with 220g, then a final pass with 400g. I'm not sure if the 400g pass is necessary though. Curious what works for you.

    #92 4 months ago
    Quoted from HoakyPoaky:

    Thanks for the advice. I'll be spraying in 85+ temps & 25% humidity, so I have a feeling that all the coats are going to dry & cure ultrafast on me. I'll just have to try my best.
    What was your process for sanding prep? I've heard 80g to strip the paint, which I'm working on now. Then do your cabinet damage repairs. Then 80g to sand the repairs, then passes with 150g & 220g. Then prime with multiple coats & sandings with 220g, then a final pass with 400g. I'm not sure if the 400g pass is necessary though. Curious what works for you.

    Nahhh 220 is fine... I think 400 was over kill when i did it, also if you use the primer with the filler in it, its going to look amazing. Just sand the old, clean up the wood of dings or gouges, spray the primer, lightly sand it smooth with 220, and paint several light coats. And yeah, i tried to stencil when it was 95 and the paint was drying in a minute, made the stencil a bit of a pain, but once you start peeling you gotta see it through.

    #93 4 months ago

    So lay a thicker coat of prime, sand with 220, then several light coats over that? I thought sanding was the last step

    #94 4 months ago
    Quoted from HoakyPoaky:

    So lay a thicker coat of prime, sand with 220, then several light coats over that? I thought sanding was the last step

    after you sand the primer smooth its ready to paint

    #95 4 months ago

    Thanks for the advice. I'll get to painting sometime in august

    1 week later
    #96 4 months ago

    So I guess this would be a new problem with Rustoleum 2X.
    Taking all that I learned with this paint and how to apply I decided to clear my Shangri La backglass. Thin layers a few minutes apart until I get the coat that I like. Well this stuff shrank the existing art work as it dried and made it look terrible. I had 9/10 backglass I was trying to preserve and just ruined it.

    It doesn’t show well in pictures but all the yellow “Shangri la” text just looks terrible when backlit. I’m told I should’ve use triple thick although some say that product sucks too. I don’t know either way except not to use this for backglasses in the future
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    #97 4 months ago

    Garbage. Never will I ever... use that crap.

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    Pinball Machine
    Classic Game Rooms
    $ 38.75
    Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
    The MOD Couple
    $ 48.00
    Cabinet - Other
    ModFather Pinball Mods
    $ 18.95
    Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
    ULEKstore
    $ 7,499.00
    Pinball Machine
    Little Shop Of Games
    $ 10.95
    Apparel - Unisex
    Pinball Wheezer
    $ 11.95
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