(Topic ID: 331133)

HELP Judge Dredd drops have been driving me insane [thread back from the dead]

By KingVidiot

1 year ago


Topic Heartbeat

Topic Stats

  • 49 posts
  • 15 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 9 months ago by KingVidiot
  • Topic is favorited by 3 Pinsiders

You

Linked Games

Topic Gallery

View topic image gallery

A8DEDA96-3B95-4D3E-9425-F9D3EC8F7F03 (resized).jpeg
4DC02BAB-08D9-44F5-B393-BCF30F8AE834 (resized).jpeg
B9B73673-153C-4766-A28F-4C5DADB857E4 (resized).jpeg
2FAAF33A-9E36-4CE3-86F3-FE9326CB18E9 (resized).jpeg (© Nutty 5.0)
74CE6DA3-F311-468C-A0E6-7F5DAB28925A (resized).jpeg (© Nutty 5.0)
600671F2-54B8-49BC-8032-024E4F806CA8 (resized).jpeg (© Nutty 5.0)
47FD8B31-DDCC-471B-83FD-FD8992B49412 (resized).jpeg (© Nutty 5.0)
2BC8D663-707E-4672-A7D0-19DA476A4B6E (resized).jpeg
3AEE29B8-7C2A-4283-8FC0-6D215C797C92 (resized).jpeg
B83AFDDA-1F9B-4A4F-9526-81D5DFD69043 (resized).jpeg
F23B8544-FABB-4547-B47F-7DEA360DD69A (resized).jpeg
F40D06BD-817E-4333-8F98-5AFB52CB4EF7 (resized).jpeg
4211B05B-D1E7-434C-906C-CF8163C3D196 (resized).jpeg
F9194F29-3227-40D3-806C-664D87BF7DFA (resized).jpeg
B92F5387-B818-4657-BB7F-3F05E9FCBD28 (resized).jpeg
0F25FA37-F1BB-4D90-90A0-C49ED067C92E (resized).jpeg

#1 1 year ago

So I bought a Judge Dredd last June, worked fine for a week, then the drop targets started to act up, firing rapidly after a certain amount of use. The bizarre thing is that they act normal in test mode. They NEVER freak out in test mode, only in normal and super game.

I've literally tried everything:

-combed through and asked the owner's thread
-replaced the fuses
-repinned connectors
-tried different ROM versions
-replaced drops board
-replaced solenoids
-cleaned drop target assembly
-blasted the interior with a massive fan in case it was a cooling issue

I'm at my wits end with these $#%!! drop targets!!

Here's some video documenting their behavior

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/19yaX1EMChILN4n_CJUqPi0YF68u8FomF?usp=sharing

I'm *this* close to calling a priest.
judge dredd possession (resized).jpgjudge dredd possession (resized).jpg

#2 1 year ago

How’s that CPU board looking? Any damage? Did you press on the chips? You got original ribbon cables in the game? How’s your 12v looking after awhile?

I know there’s a massive amount of optos in that game so remind me, does that board visit an opto driver board before going to the matrix or does the drop target board handle all of that? IIRC there are at least 2x opto driver boards in there.

#3 1 year ago
Quoted from EJS:

How’s that CPU board looking? Any damage? Did you press on the chips? You got original ribbon cables in the game? How’s your 12v looking after awhile?
I know there’s a massive amount of optos in that game so remind me, does that board visit an opto driver board before going to the matrix or does the drop target board handle all of that? IIRC there are at least 2x opto driver boards in there.

CPU board looks good. Original ribbons as far as I know. Not sure about the 12v nor what to look for.

747419C4-8393-4C91-9DDC-2414696A819D (resized).jpeg747419C4-8393-4C91-9DDC-2414696A819D (resized).jpegF2560FA6-60C9-4B7E-A040-CE248E962776 (resized).jpegF2560FA6-60C9-4B7E-A040-CE248E962776 (resized).jpeg

84297B30-6672-4BD9-8DA5-BE9DA3EE440F (resized).jpeg84297B30-6672-4BD9-8DA5-BE9DA3EE440F (resized).jpeg252353A4-0A24-4B65-801D-60F8E1B6BEF7 (resized).jpeg252353A4-0A24-4B65-801D-60F8E1B6BEF7 (resized).jpeg
#4 1 year ago

Previous owner did some sound light mods, which I was initially suspicious of, but disconnecting them didn’t seem to change anything.

5CD8C46E-596B-42F4-875A-A2A058F896C5 (resized).jpeg5CD8C46E-596B-42F4-875A-A2A058F896C5 (resized).jpeg60D545F2-2D5E-4B76-9E5B-7D7478BC616F (resized).jpeg60D545F2-2D5E-4B76-9E5B-7D7478BC616F (resized).jpeg
#5 1 year ago

Front side of the CPU board, any damage from batteries? I’d press on everything socketed because it’s cheap and fast. Reseat the ribbon cable between the driver board and CPU.

#6 1 year ago

You can check in on your 12 here. Those connections can be known to hold on loosely (trying not to break into song). Also I don’t trust ribbons from the 90s. Not saying they are automatically bad but I don’t have much faith in them and they are capable of doing some weird stuff. Since it takes awhile for your issue to happen I’d lead more towards a voltage acting up but you never know. Which connectors did you repin?

664E338C-DAF6-4DB3-9FDF-CABD424400EB (resized).jpeg664E338C-DAF6-4DB3-9FDF-CABD424400EB (resized).jpeg

#7 1 year ago
Quoted from EJS:

You can check in on your 12 here. Those connections can be known to hold on loosely (trying not to break into song). Also I don’t trust ribbons from the 90s. Not saying they are automatically bad but I don’t have much faith in them and they are capable of doing some weird stuff. Since it takes awhile for your issue to happen I’d lead more towards a voltage acting up but you never know. Which connectors did you repin?
[quoted image]

I ended up repinning the pins connected to the drops, because they were a little crispy… totally thought I had figured it out… didn’t change anything

#8 1 year ago

That red one, the j20 is the one I repinned. The back of the board in that area did looks slightly toasted.

0F25FA37-F1BB-4D90-90A0-C49ED067C92E (resized).jpeg0F25FA37-F1BB-4D90-90A0-C49ED067C92E (resized).jpeg
#9 1 year ago

You can see the crispy pin at the top here before I replaced it.

4211B05B-D1E7-434C-906C-CF8163C3D196 (resized).jpeg4211B05B-D1E7-434C-906C-CF8163C3D196 (resized).jpegB92F5387-B818-4657-BB7F-3F05E9FCBD28 (resized).jpegB92F5387-B818-4657-BB7F-3F05E9FCBD28 (resized).jpegF9194F29-3227-40D3-806C-664D87BF7DFA (resized).jpegF9194F29-3227-40D3-806C-664D87BF7DFA (resized).jpeg

#10 1 year ago

Some repair work had been done in the past here.

B83AFDDA-1F9B-4A4F-9526-81D5DFD69043 (resized).jpegB83AFDDA-1F9B-4A4F-9526-81D5DFD69043 (resized).jpegF23B8544-FABB-4547-B47F-7DEA360DD69A (resized).jpegF23B8544-FABB-4547-B47F-7DEA360DD69A (resized).jpegF40D06BD-817E-4333-8F98-5AFB52CB4EF7 (resized).jpegF40D06BD-817E-4333-8F98-5AFB52CB4EF7 (resized).jpeg
#11 1 year ago

12v connectors look and feel fine

#12 1 year ago

I wouldn’t be worried about DMD board at this point. Check out this connection looks like someone reseated the wires in an attempt to fix “a” problem. Sometimes they can reloosen themselves. Check voltage at these pins with the connector on.

I think that rebuilt connector is GI.

3AEE29B8-7C2A-4283-8FC0-6D215C797C92 (resized).jpeg3AEE29B8-7C2A-4283-8FC0-6D215C797C92 (resized).jpeg

#13 1 year ago

cool, I'll check this after work. Thank you so much for taking the time!

#14 1 year ago

I would be looking at sag in your 12v power supply and/or poor ground for the 5 bank opto.

Turn pin on

Measure resistance between j1-9 on the drop target opto board and j118-3 on the power driver board. Measure 12v power at j1-8 on the target board and j118-2 on the power driver board. (Could be connected to any one of the three 12v connectors on the driver board)

Now play game until problem appears. Take new measurements.

My bet is that 12v is low at the target bank opto board causing the opto light beam to dim enough to activate an opto switch closure

If that doesn’t help next make jumper wires to bypass the harness and connect your opto boards 12v and ground to the power driver board. (which would eliminate a bad wire)

#15 1 year ago
Quoted from EJS:

I wouldn’t be worried about DMD board at this point. Check out this connection looks like someone reseated the wires in an attempt to fix “a” problem. Sometimes they can reloosen themselves. Check voltage at these pins with the connector on.
I think that rebuilt connector is GI.
[quoted image]

I agree the dmd board is usually not in the first couple 12v troubleshooting steps BUT a bad dmd board can cause all sorts of weird hard to measure/identify 12v issues.

#17 1 year ago
Quoted from EJS:

Any luck KingVidiot ?

Thanks for the follow up.

Not yet. Just been busy with some work things and other house projects.

#18 1 year ago

I'm pretty sure I know what's up here, I've had it happen to me on my jd. During that point of the game all drops should be up blocking the subway, thats why it's freaking out trying to reset the to all up position. If you look carefully at the D drop target its standing a bit taller than the others. Its slipped out of the lifter assembly. Lift your table and examine with power off. You can manually drop and reset them now and you should see the problem clearly. Focus on the D target. You can gently tweak it back into target slot or just remove the whole works and rebuild it. Good luck!

#19 1 year ago
Quoted from Pinologist:

I'm pretty sure I know what's up here, I've had it happen to me on my jd. During that point of the game all drops should be up blocking the subway, thats why it's freaking out trying to reset the to all up position. If you look carefully at the D drop target its standing a bit taller than the others. Its slipped out of the lifter assembly. Lift your table and examine with power off. You can manually drop and reset them now and you should see the problem clearly. Focus on the D target. You can gently tweak it back into target slot or just remove the whole works and rebuild it. Good luck!

Damn, this sounds like it could be it. Thank you. I’ll try it and report back!

#20 1 year ago

Hrmm.. I think maybe it was an optical illusion that the D drop was sitting higher up, since it’s a thicker drop than the others. Looks pretty level to me from this angle, unless I’m missing something.

I took a high frame rate video of the drops to see if I or someone else could see something.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/17aeVwaTyVwk6L2bADg3lzj8oDltw/view?usp=drivesdk

2BC8D663-707E-4672-A7D0-19DA476A4B6E (resized).jpeg2BC8D663-707E-4672-A7D0-19DA476A4B6E (resized).jpeg
#21 1 year ago
Quoted from Pinologist:

I'm pretty sure I know what's up here, I've had it happen to me on my jd. During that point of the game all drops should be up blocking the subway, thats why it's freaking out trying to reset the to all up position. If you look carefully at the D drop target its standing a bit taller than the others. Its slipped out of the lifter assembly. Lift your table and examine with power off. You can manually drop and reset them now and you should see the problem clearly. Focus on the D target. You can gently tweak it back into target slot or just remove the whole works and rebuild it. Good luck!

But I do think you’re on to something in regards to it being tied to code in the game.

So the drops are freaking because they’re supposed to be blocking the subway, and this is why it always performs perfectly in test mode, right?

#22 1 year ago

Couldn’t hurt to put it in switch test and tap really hard on the playfield with your palm and see what happens.

#23 1 year ago

Mine is doing this too! I’ve been putting off troubleshooting this, but now that we’re both having the issue maybe it will help figure it out. I had assumed something mechanical was going on with the assembly, so I’ll start there and at least get it off and see if anything looks weird.

#24 1 year ago
Quoted from KingVidiot:

But I do think you’re on to something in regards to it being tied to code in the game.
So the drops are freaking because they’re supposed to be blocking the subway, and this is why it always performs perfectly in test mode, right?

Indeed, that's when I noticed it on my pin. The logic sees the targets go up on reset but as soon as reset plunger drops the D is no longer is sight of target up opto, which is important at that time to the logic.

Super exclusive ad from the Pinside Marketplace!
#25 1 year ago

Check the 12v power at the opto board…. It is the easiest test you can do….

#26 1 year ago
Quoted from The_Pump_House:

Check the 12v power at the opto board…. It is the easiest test you can do….

Yes, this.
The software resets the droptargets so the software clearly thinks not all of them are in the right position. Since you've replaced a lot of the components in the chain already, I think the 12V is likely the problem here. Do you have another power drver board to swap in?

What's the software version? Did you try another version?

#27 1 year ago
Quoted from KoP:

Yes, this.
The software resets the droptargets so the software clearly thinks not all of them are in the right position. Since you've replaced a lot of the components in the chain already, I think the 12V is likely the problem here. Do you have another power drver board to swap in?
What's the software version? Did you try another version?

Yeah I have a few different roms that I tried swapping out. Same behavior.

Full disclosure, when it comes to using multimeters, the information just doesn’t want to adhere to my brain. Probably some undiagnosed condition

Could someone please point me to a for-dummies tutorial on how to use a multimeter to measure the 12v?

#28 1 year ago

Have you tested the opto switches in switch test?
Have you checked your 7 opto board for bad cap at C1 and or a bad Lm339 at U1-U2?
Have you checked the connectors on that same board?

#29 1 year ago

The drops are not resetting so as a guess, the reset coil plunger is being impeded somehow and not pulling the reset carriage up all the way. (Broken coil stop perhaps?) If the targets are not up I assume the coil is just repeatedly trying to get them to latch.

#30 1 year ago
Quoted from Seamlesswall:

The drops are not resetting so as a guess, the reset coil plunger is being impeded somehow and not pulling the reset carriage up all the way. (Broken coil stop perhaps?) If the targets are not up I assume the coil is just repeatedly trying to get them to latch.

That’s what I’d assume too… but it works perfectly in test mode.

#31 1 year ago
Quoted from KingVidiot:

Could someone please point me to a for-dummies tutorial on how to use a multimeter to measure the 12v?

on your 5 bank opto board for the drop targets you should see 9 pin connector to header J1?

with your meter set to DC volts, put the red probe from your meter on a grey/yellow wire pin 8 (12VDC from J118 pin 2) and the black probe from your meter on a black wire pin 9 (ground from J118 pin 3).......what reading do you see in the display of your meter?

#32 1 year ago

I see a "Lever Coil Sub Assy" A-16445 associated with that 5 bank. I assume that is "Trip Drop Target" on the solenoid table. I'm not familiar with that trip
mechanism. But possibly either mechanically or electrically that is why the drops are not locking in with the "Reset Drop Coil".

#33 1 year ago

Just check the 12v present at the opto board…..

Before checking the feng shui of your living room check the 12v

Before making sure your bindu chakra aligns with the moon, just check the 12v

Please, tell us what the 12v measures

#34 1 year ago
Quoted from The_Pump_House:

Before checking the feng shui of your living room check the 12v

Love it. Good post.

#35 1 year ago

Reminds me of behavior I'd get on my BSD when there was a bad diode on a switch. My game would act possessed and fire upkickers seemingly randomly. A friend of mine, who was much better diagnosing issues, chased it down to a bad diode on a switch. When pressed, it would cause chaos on adjacent switches in the switch matrix. Maybe take the glass off and press someone switches while the game is running, see if that causes your possessed drops?

#36 1 year ago

I’m sure you checked, but doing a full teardown now and found the target rest broken in several places. Wasn’t very obvious. Maybe the wire that sits in it is tweaked because it is?

Here’s pics of the mechanism.
47FD8B31-DDCC-471B-83FD-FD8992B49412 (resized).jpeg47FD8B31-DDCC-471B-83FD-FD8992B49412 (resized).jpeg600671F2-54B8-49BC-8032-024E4F806CA8 (resized).jpeg600671F2-54B8-49BC-8032-024E4F806CA8 (resized).jpeg

74CE6DA3-F311-468C-A0E6-7F5DAB28925A (resized).jpeg74CE6DA3-F311-468C-A0E6-7F5DAB28925A (resized).jpeg2FAAF33A-9E36-4CE3-86F3-FE9326CB18E9 (resized).jpeg2FAAF33A-9E36-4CE3-86F3-FE9326CB18E9 (resized).jpeg
#37 1 year ago
Quoted from Rikoshay:

on your 5 bank opto board for the drop targets you should see 9 pin connector to header J1?
with your meter set to DC volts, put the red probe from your meter on a grey/yellow wire pin 8 (12VDC from J118 pin 2) and the black probe from your meter on a black wire pin 9 (ground from J118 pin 3).......what reading do you see in the display of your meter?

So here are my readings:

13.58 when the game is first switched on

13.42 after the drops freaked for a bit

OL when the drops freak out to the point of stopping

I have no clue what to do with this information

4DC02BAB-08D9-44F5-B393-BCF30F8AE834 (resized).jpeg4DC02BAB-08D9-44F5-B393-BCF30F8AE834 (resized).jpegA8DEDA96-3B95-4D3E-9425-F9D3EC8F7F03 (resized).jpegA8DEDA96-3B95-4D3E-9425-F9D3EC8F7F03 (resized).jpegB9B73673-153C-4766-A28F-4C5DADB857E4 (resized).jpegB9B73673-153C-4766-A28F-4C5DADB857E4 (resized).jpeg
#38 1 year ago

I did notice that any time the drops freaked, if they got stuck, it was the far right E drop that would slightly hang. When I pushed it, it would fall and then continue firing a little longer.

#39 1 year ago

Thanks for the 12v reading. The Drop to zero is odd.

Which coil is rapid firing on the bank? Is it the reset coil which raises the targets or is it the coil that causes them to drop

#40 1 year ago

I would be looking at sag in your 12v power supply and/or poor ground for the 5 bank opto.
Turn pin on
Measure resistance between j1-9 on the drop target opto board and j118-3 on the power driver board. Measure 12v power at j1-8 on the target board and j118-2 on the power driver board. (Could be connected to any one of the three 12v connectors on the driver board)
Now play game until problem appears. Take new measurements.
My bet is that 12v is low at the target bank opto board causing the opto light beam to dim enough to activate an opto switch closure
If that doesn’t help next make jumper wires to bypass the harness and connect your opto boards 12v and ground to the power driver board. (which would eliminate a bad wire)

Sorry wrong post the first time...
Drop target resetting is usually because of broken diode somewhere.

#41 1 year ago
Quoted from The_Pump_House:

Thanks for the 12v reading. The Drop to zero is odd.
Which coil is rapid firing on the bank? Is it the reset coil which raises the targets or is it the coil that causes them to drop

Thanks for suggesting it.

Here's a video I took from inside when it was rapid firing. I wanted to see if it was the main coil firing or the one next to it that drops the D center shot somehow messing with it. I have a spare coil. Tempted to replace that one too, even though I'm fairly sure that's not it, just to eliminate more potential issues

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1k4DqL8nthUrjKRc8_S6C4jG0eGy8tUc5/view?usp=sharing

#42 1 year ago

Let’s look for that coil finding an intermittent path to ground. Unplug your GI and controlled lamp headers so the inside of the cab stays nice and dark. Recreate the issue and look for the flash of an arc.

Also, have you pulled and reseated your ribbon cables in the Backbox?

2 months later
#43 11 months ago

*** UPDATE ***

Been ultra busy lately, but I did find some time to fix another minor issue with Dredd - flashers that would randomly cut out.

... and now the drops have been working fine for ~ 30 games.

Is it possible that those flashers cutting out was the source of the problem? I ended up bending the connecting pins, since they were a bit loose. The guy I bought it from put LED flashers over the ramps (which look great, and perfectly suit the blinding police lights they're supposed to emulate).

So my current theory (before it breaks again) is that there was some kind of shorting out problem with the flashers that was pissing off the drops...... does this sound plausible??

Because ever since I bought this game, the flashers have never been consistently working. Now, the flashers work perfectly, and so do the cursed drop targets.

#44 10 months ago

so after another 50 games or so, the JUDGE drops have been behaving normally.

However, this morning, my wife was playing Dredd and noticed one of the flashers went out… sure enough, the drops started acting up again.

Problem.

Fucking.

Solved.

My next step is to order new flasher connectors and rid myself of this demon once and for all.

Thank you to everyone who contributed to this thread. Much appreciated.

4 weeks later
#45 9 months ago

Looks like DREDD is back to his old routine. Gosh, I’m so mad, I thought I had solved it.

At least it’s constantly firing now, as opposed to randomly like before. So now, as soon as I start a game, the drops freak out and fire 10 times a second. Still behave fine in test menu.

So anyone in the Michigan area brave enough to bring a Bible and some holy water?

#46 9 months ago
Quoted from KingVidiot:

Looks like DREDD is back to his old routine. Gosh, I’m so mad, I thought I had solved it.
At least it’s constantly firing now, as opposed to randomly like before. So now, as soon as I start a game, the drops freak out and fire 10 times a second. Still behave fine in test menu.
So anyone in the Michigan area brave enough to bring a Bible and some holy water?

I would definitely see if you can prop up the playfield and look over everything a again for pinched wires and wires/contacts, etc touching or close enough where they could possibly touch when they shouldn't.

This may sound weird but check every fuse to ensure they are tight in the holder. I've recently run into a cou8ple odd intermittent issues on WPC drivers caused by fuses. Specifically budget fuses that people bought off Marco, Amazon, etc. May of those are physically slightly smaller that the normal US fuses and can sit loose in the holder. Causes all sorts of odd intermittent issues.

Beyond that make sure the optos are clean and look over the opto driver boards. Some lave a larger electrolytic cap that can leak and start to eat away traces, Before it eats completely through can make some traces become high resistance causing issues. Beyond that I would make sure you're running the latest known good code on properly programmed EPROM. Some people burn them on the fastest speed which on some chips I would question the long term reliability if it put enough charge on the cells to hold the data but not specifically a full charge for long term use.

Next step I would check and go over that main driver board if it has never been serviced or if the prior service showed signs of sub standard work or other hacks. If so it should be gone over to correct.

I just went through and rebuilt my own Judge Dredd boards and sets for 5 other local ones.

#47 9 months ago
Quoted from Robotworkshop:

I would definitely see if you can prop up the playfield and look over everything a again for pinched wires and wires/contacts, etc touching or close enough where they could possibly touch when they shouldn't.
This may sound weird but check every fuse to ensure they are tight in the holder. I've recently run into a cou8ple odd intermittent issues on WPC drivers caused by fuses. Specifically budget fuses that people bought off Marco, Amazon, etc. May of those are physically slightly smaller that the normal US fuses and can sit loose in the holder. Causes all sorts of odd intermittent issues.
Beyond that make sure the optos are clean and look over the opto driver boards. Some lave a larger electrolytic cap that can leak and start to eat away traces, Before it eats completely through can make some traces become high resistance causing issues. Beyond that I would make sure you're running the latest known good code on properly programmed EPROM. Some people burn them on the fastest speed which on some chips I would question the long term reliability if it put enough charge on the cells to hold the data but not specifically a full charge for long term use.
Next step I would check and go over that main driver board if it has never been serviced or if the prior service showed signs of sub standard work or other hacks. If so it should be gone over to correct.
I just went through and rebuilt my own Judge Dredd boards and sets for 5 other local ones.

Awesome reply, thank you so much!

#48 9 months ago

gonna say you need to replace the black plastic piece..... you prob should replace the drop targets themselves too, prob worn that little edge off and won't hold it in the up position. had this problem before. even got a faulty one from marcos.

#49 9 months ago
Quoted from ccbiggsoo7:

gonna say you need to replace the black plastic piece..... you prob should replace the drop targets themselves too, prob worn that little edge off and won't hold it in the up position. had this problem before. even got a faulty one from marcos.

Yeah, I was kinda suspicious of this too, but it works fine in the test mode. Robotworkshop got me thinking it might be a rom problem.

Promoted items from the Pinside Marketplace
$ 85.00
Boards
Pinball Haus
Boards

Reply

Wanna join the discussion? Please sign in to reply to this topic.

Hey there! Welcome to Pinside!

Donate to Pinside

Great to see you're enjoying Pinside! Did you know Pinside is able to run without any 3rd-party banners or ads, thanks to the support from our visitors? Please consider a donation to Pinside and get anext to your username to show for it! Or better yet, subscribe to Pinside+!


This page was printed from https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/help-judge-dredd-drops-have-been-driving-me-insane-for-6-months and we tried optimising it for printing. Some page elements may have been deliberately hidden.

Scan the QR code on the left to jump to the URL this document was printed from.