(Topic ID: 177238)

Help: Bally Surfers Start-up

By lyonsden

7 years ago


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  • 21 posts
  • 5 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 6 years ago by lyonsden
  • Topic is favorited by 1 Pinsider

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#1 7 years ago

This is my first EM and I am pretty lost on how to work on them, so any help is deeply appreciated. I've been doing my best following instructions here: http://www.pinrepair.com/em/index3.htm#start

Here is the problem. When I turn on and credit up (I set the switched to be free play) my Bally Surfers, the score motor starts spinning, the Game over relay starts clicking, and the credit count wheel starts counting down to 0. And this never stops unless I manually push the start relay. Then everything stops until I press the start button again and the same things get going again. Some other things: The score reels never count down to 0 (though I have taken them off and cleaned their contacts).

Since I know that I don't know how to explain this well, I made a video:

Any help would be appreciated!

#2 7 years ago

Today I went cleaned all the switches on the score wheel and all of the stepper motors. The score reels now reset back to 0, but the same general problem as seen in the video persists. Any suggestions would be appreciated.

5 months later
#3 6 years ago

Did you ever get this issue resolved?

#4 6 years ago

Unfortunately, no. I still poke, test, and clean contacts hoping something will get the game working. I'm not going to give up, but I do need the help from someone who understands EMs A LOT better than I do.

#5 6 years ago

Well I'm not going to be too much of a help with your startup (never had a bally; not familiar with that game) but:

1) free bump! while we wait for a Bally expert

2) Good idea posting a video. The score "reels" in the bottom you refer to are the cams of the score motor. The actual score reels that are critical to the startup process are the 4 reels for player's score in the backbox; they need to each reach 0 and register 0 before the motor will eventually stop the startup process. Can you manually actuate each score reel's *coil plunger* to index them forward without binding? Find, inspect and perhaps adjust/clean each score reel's "0-position" switch which should open (only when) the reel is showing 0.

Refer back to http://www.pinrepair.com/em/index2.htm#scorereelsvideo and watch his video about score reels (Bally at 2:28):

More on score reels and adjustments:
http://www.pinrepair.com/em/index2.htm#reels

Here's a vid on (newer) Bally score reel with details on removal, actuating, and switches. Concepts should apply to your vintage.

3) Maybe this discussion would help some?
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/bally-1964-startup-sequence

4) I can't explain why your startup sequence is to the point of decrementing the credit reel without score reels being at zero. But like I said, I don't know Bally's particular startup sequence for your vintage of game.

#6 6 years ago
Quoted from jeffc:

Well I'm not going to be too much of a help with your startup (never had a bally; not familiar with that game) but:
1) free bump! while we wait for a Bally expert
2) Good idea posting a video. The score "reels" in the bottom you refer to are the cams of the score motor. The actual score reels that are critical to the startup process are the 4 reels for player's score in the backbox; they need to each reach 0 and register 0 before the motor will eventually stop the startup process. Can you manually actuate each score reel's *coil plunger* to index them forward without binding? Find, inspect and perhaps adjust/clean each score reel's "0-position" switch which should open (only when) the reel is showing 0.
Refer back to http://www.pinrepair.com/em/index2.htm#scorereelsvideo and watch his video about score reels (Bally at 2:28):
» YouTube video
More on score reels and adjustments:
http://www.pinrepair.com/em/index2.htm#reels
Here's a vid on (newer) Bally score reel with details on removal, actuating, and switches. Concepts should apply to your vintage.
» YouTube video
3) Maybe this discussion would help some?
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/bally-1964-startup-sequence
4) I can't explain why your startup sequence is to the point of decrementing the credit reel without score reels being at zero. But like I said, I don't know Bally's particular startup sequence for your vintage of game.

I really appreciate you taking the time to write this all up. I'll go back and look at those score reels again. I have gone through and cleaned them, but I'm guessing that since I don't really know what I am doing, I missed something.

#7 6 years ago

Are the score reel coils even trying to advance - doesn't look like it from your video.

#8 6 years ago

I checked the switches on the score reels, make sure they move freely, and took a new video showing the score reels advancing/reseting to 0.

I'll read through the Bally start up sequence again in pinrepair and check out the link you sent. I'm sure I'm missing something obvious, but let me know if you have any ideas on things to check.

#9 6 years ago

Maybe made some progress today. I figured out that the pin settings at the front of the game were not placed correctly. I did my best to find pictures with them plugged in correctly and could only come up with these two (zoomed in to try to figure out placement and colors of wires.) Not a lot to go on.

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#10 6 years ago

Here are photos of how I have things connected (which I am not sure that I have done correctly -- I am "missing" a plug for Hi-score feature" and not really sure of any of them on that side due to the poor quality of the reference photos). One thing that happened was when the "ball or game" tilt was set to "game", one of the fuses blew when I manually advanced the ball count. When set to "ball", the fuse didn't blow.

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#11 6 years ago

One thing that did happen is that the "Game Over" now lights up with that plug in place (never had that turn on before). I'm not sure if it is normal, but I am not able to get any of the ball in play lights to work when manually advancing the ball count. Same thing for the match lights.

#12 6 years ago

I'm the only person listed on pinside with a Surfers, but if anyone has one and can post a photo of this area, that would be greatly appreciated. With these plugs put in what appears to be a random fashion, I'm now have doubts about other parts of the game.

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#13 6 years ago

Hi lyonsden
do You have the schematics ? I looked up in ipdb --- schematics shown to "Bazaar, Aug-1966, ONE-Player --- Dixieland, Oct-1967, ONE-Player --- The Wiggler, Feb-1967, FOUR-Player --- Dogies, Aug-1967, FOUR-Player --- RockMakers, Nov-1967, FOUR-Player" beeing closest in time to Your Surfers, March-1967, ONE-Player.
I would like to look in the schematics of an ONE-Player-Game --- Dixieland is quite conventional BUT Bazaar is horrible: MANY stuff operated by 110VAC. "The Wiggler (4 Players) is closest in time to Your Surfers --- Wiggler is AS Dixieland quite conventional.

Please wear rubber gloves for insulation --- or be very cautious using an wooden stick --- never touch metal stuff --- 6VAC, 50VAC, 110VAC in the pin - can kill You.

In the video in post-1 You said something of great value: You mention: Have replaced the missing coil on the HOLD-Relay. At that time Bally had a "funny feature" trying to save money by "One relay less in the pin means saving money" --- they used a very special coil on the Hold-Relay.
See the JPG: The coil must have 100 (!) Ohms. Tilting the pin creates an "short" - BUT the 15 Ohm-10Watt-Resistor keeps the fuse from blowing.

Please try: Use a wooden stick or wear rubber gloves --- toggle-on the pin --- fault starts happening --- NOW You press the armature of the Hold-Relay --- You MAKE this Hold-Relay to "steady pull" --- does the pin behave different ? (((Maybe a fuse blows, hmm))) - write about - and write about the schematics. Greetings Rolf

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#14 6 years ago
Quoted from lyonsden:

I'm the only person listed on pinside with a Surfers, but if anyone has one and can post a photo of this area, that would be greatly appreciated. With these plugs put in what appears to be a random fashion, I'm now have doubts about other parts of the game.

I have the game.

The only problem I see with the plugs is you have the plug for the replay/add a ball feature plugged into the Balloons Score feature. The green wire with the yellow tracer should be plugged into the upper of the two spots on the plug to the left of the Balloons feature. The three plugs that are stuck into the holes in the bottom board next to the Balloons score feature are for that feature. If you don't plug in any you'll get a replay only on Balloon 9. You can obviously set it to award replays with three other balloons.

I doubt this is causing all your issues but it's not helping anything. The plug to the left that is orange and plugged into the middle spot is correct.

In addition, your shorting pin for the adds a ball feature is not installed correctly. It should have the two connected pins in the bottom two slots with the open spot in the middle. Yours is upside down.

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I'll look at your videos and see if I can figure it out.

The instructions above are not going to help you much because that's for a multiplayer game. And you are not going to get killed by 6 volts or 50 volts. Not even likely by line voltage.

#15 6 years ago
Quoted from rolf_martin_062:

The coil must have 100 (!) Ohms.

Thanks for the help! I replaced it with a 100ohms. Unfortunately, I don't have the schematics for it.

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#16 6 years ago

Thanks for the help, EMsInKC!

I think I have the plugs corrected as you suggested, including flipping around the add-a-ball. I'm including pictures of the corrected pins. Another thing which I should have mentioned, but did not think it was related is that I'm missing on the of the flipper coils (picture attached). I can't imagine how that can be screwing up the start-up sequence, but am including a picture as well.

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#17 6 years ago

Hi EMsInKC
do You have the schematics ? Why have airlines the text on the cups of coffee they serve: "Caution - HOT" ? - its the legal aspect. Somewhere I read "About 3 people die every year as they used their tongue to test a little 9-Volt-Battery" --- they were extremely sensitive.

Hi lyonsden
How many coils does Your Game-Over-Relay have ? ONE coil like the "Bally Bazaar" or (as we used to know) TWO coils like "Bally Dixieland" ?
Bazaar is the ONE-Player-Pin before Surfers that ipdb has the schematics. Dixieland is the ONE-Player-Pin after Surfers that ipdb has the schematics. I would like to look-up in the schematics of a ONE-Player-Pin --- I wrote about "Bazaar has plenty of stuff operated by 110VAC" --- but when Your Surfers has an ONE-Coil-Game-Over-Relay we then may have to look into the schematics of Bazaar.

What happens when You press the armature of the Hold-Relay ? What happens when You force the Game-Over-Relay into "state of Game-Over" ? Greetings Rolf

#18 6 years ago
Quoted from rolf_martin_062:

How many coils does Your Game-Over-Relay have ? ONE coil like the "Bally Bazaar" or (as we used to know) TWO coils like "Bally Dixieland" ?

It has two:

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#19 6 years ago
Quoted from rolf_martin_062:

What happens when You press the armature of the Hold-Relay ? What happens when You force the Game-Over-Relay into "state of Game-Over" ? Greetings Rolf

I made this video and I hope it helps show the behavior of the game:

Hold-relay when pressed when game is on, but not started, will buzz a bit, but not hold. When it is in the state that constantly loops through game over, there is no power to the hold relay.

Forcing the game over relay just cases the second coil to buzz a bit, and then release.

#20 6 years ago

Made some great progress today. Got the game to actually start (though I had to manually press the start relay to get it going). I ended up tracing the short that was causing the fuse to blow (documented above) and found that one of the switches in the hold relay was bent. Got that straightened out and now onto a few other things. I'll post updates as I make progress/get stuck.

5 months later
#21 6 years ago

As an update, I finally got this fixed (among a lot of other things.) The problem turned out to be the magnet coil for the start relay had a broken wire. Can't believe it took me 11 months to figure that out, but as this was my first dive into EM repair (and this game had a lot of issues), I'm happy to have it fixed and have learned a lot along the way. Here it is after getting everything working:

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