(Topic ID: 222171)

Hearts and Spades always a ball short

By Incomer

5 years ago


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Topic Stats

  • 32 posts
  • 6 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 5 years ago by Mopar
  • Topic is favorited by 3 Pinsiders

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#1 5 years ago

My Gottlieb Hearts & Spades add a ball always starts a game a ball short - if I have it set on 3 ball it gives me 2, 5 it gives me 4, and 8 it gives me 7.

I've studied the schematic and can't see an obvious reason.

Anyone any ideas please?

#2 5 years ago
Quoted from Incomer:

My Gottlieb Hearts & Spades add a ball always starts a game a ball short - if I have it set on 3 ball it gives me 2, 5 it gives me 4, and 8 it gives me 7.
I've studied the schematic and can't see an obvious reason.
Anyone any ideas please?

Some Gottlieb AAB games have a “first ball relay”. It energizes when all the score reels are at zero. Its purpose is to open the circuit to the subtract ball count unit. Otherwise the game would subtract your first ball when it rolls across the trough switch into the shooter lane, which sounds like your problem.

Check to see if your game has one of these, which I think is the Z relay. It might not be energizing because of a misadjusted or oxidized switch on one of the four score reels.

P.S. The Z relay also has the unintended side effect of giving you a “mulligan” if you drain your first ball without scoring any points!

#3 5 years ago

Hi Incomer Welcome to pinside.

Hearts & Spades has what the schematic calls the 1st Ball in Play (D) relay, which locks on while the score reels are on zero.

Beyond that, I sent you a reply in a personal message.

#4 5 years ago

Thank you both

yes it does have a first ball relay and it is pulling in and opening the contacts correctly; in any case the ball count doesn't reach the correct count and then subtract a ball; it never reaches the full count in the first place (before the ball is kicked through the trough)

also sent reply to your PM Howard, thanks

#5 5 years ago

So the Control Bank is resetting just a little bit early.
Are you sure that the Ball Count's snow shoes (spring
loaded wipers) are pretty much spot on?

#6 5 years ago

They line up fine but the rivets at the 4 ball position are badly worn - at first I thought that was the reason I was only getting 4 balls set up instead of 5

However that doesn't tally with the fact that I only get 2 balls set up instead of 3, and 7 instead of 8 - in the 2/3 ball scenario the wipers never get as far as the worn rivets

#7 5 years ago

Yeah, in the 2/3 ball, the control bank coil must fire after the ball count only steps up once.
In the 5 ball, if the forth position rivet is worn enough, it'll fire in the 5th position, which then
will give 6 balls. Just a note: When this does happen, usually that snow shoe is quite worn, and
changing it more than not will do the trick. Of course that's not the problem here..
One time while going through a Subway, many times the ball count would end up on ball 4 at
the start of a game, but you were able to see the ball light kinda jump. The problem was in the DB (Reset
Relay). A make/break switch was too close, and at reset, they all 3 vibrated together, thus energizing
the ball counts step up coil as it should, but also slightly pulsing the reset coil which neutralized the
step up coil from energizing to the 5th ball. And actually, all the switches in the DB Relay were all
lower than they should have been which limited the amount of space to be between the switches.
I reset all switches upward, re-adjusted, and all was fine.
On the H&S DB Relay, there's an armature switch which is in the circuitry of the ball count's step up,
so the circuitry for the reset coil in that relay is only a pair of contacts, but I'd say it is possible that
those switches may be too close together and vibrating at reset, but also a set of switches at the
zero position Ball Count Unit would have to be mis-adjusted, or to close together. I know that may not
sound very likely, but maybe it's worth rechecking the DB Relay switches, and also the zero position
Ball Count Unit's switches..

#8 5 years ago

What about if you loosen the wiper disc and turn it one step clockwise?
I believe "Hearts and Spades" actually is supposed to go up to 11 balls, even though only 10 are shown on the backglass. The reason for this is because you can win two balls on a drain, so if you're on ball nine, you don't get cheated. Obviously, if you're on ball ten, you wouldn't expect to be able to win any beyond that. I owned one once long ago (my first game) and I remember it working that way.

#9 5 years ago

Well I have a result - of sorts!

The wiper disc was at one end of its adjustment range so I loosened it and turned it one notch anti-clockwise (so that it starts 1 rivet further back.)

It now counts up to 4 balls, the control bank reset kicks softly, and then it advances one more ball and the control bank reset kicks again more strongly - sounds like Mopars 6 ball issue

So I get my 5 ball game, but not in the way intended - not sure if that will create any side effects though

The fact this is probably an anomaly is supported by the fact that I still get 2 and 7 ball games on the other settings, so if my 4th position rivets weren't so badly worn I guess I may still find I have the 4 ball issue

It will do as a temporary solution as I've got lots of people coming this weekend and I've run out of fixing time, I'll have to investigate further when I've got more time

How easy is it to replace the "snow shoes" and is there any relatively easy fix for worn rivets?

Many thanks for your input everybody

#10 5 years ago

post script

The side effect is that it kicks a "dead ball" out on game over - I can live with that for now, although obviously I will continue to seek the correct solution!

#11 5 years ago

Okay, good deal, but eventually you'll want to set the wiper in the proper position.
Changing the snow shoe is no problem, but we can get to that after the weekend.
If you haven't already, for now it might be a pretty good idea to lube up those
grooved rivets quite well. (T)
P.S. for the later 60s Gottliebs, those snow shoes are quite plentiful, but for the
early 60s, (on a Flipper Fair anyways), they're thinner and after quite a long seach,
I ended up having to grind a thicker one thinner..
With the snow shoe (and rivet) worn, I can understand why it would give you 4 balls
on a 3 ball setting, but it should have gave 6 balls on a 5 ball setting..
I have a H&S set up. We'll get her figured out after the weekend as long as it plays
good enough till then..

#12 5 years ago
Quoted from Incomer:

is there any relatively easy fix for worn rivets?

I've had good luck repairing worn rivets with silver solder. It's much harder that normal solder and can stand up to the snow shoes better. You should probably clean the rivet well, fill any gaps or damage with silver solder, then carefully smooth or reshape the rivet so the snow shoes ride over it easily.
Contact repair (resized).jpgContact repair (resized).jpg
Here the inner contacts have been filed down nicely. The outer contacts still need a little work.

/Mark

#13 5 years ago

Mopar - great , thank you.
I was getting 2 balls for a 3 ball game - always one less than I should

MarkG - those inner rivets look great - thats what I need to aspire to
My soldering iron runs to 400 degrees C - will that be hot enough for this job?

#14 5 years ago

Sorry I don't recall what the melting temperature is. You may have to google that. I can tell you that I don't use a soldering iron for EM pinball work though. I use a manly 100/140 watt soldering gun.

/Mark

#15 5 years ago
Quoted from Incomer:

I was getting 2 balls for a 3 ball game - always one less than I should

Yes, that's right. With worn rivets and snow wiper, I can't understand why it gave 1 less ball. Should
have gave 1 additional. It'll sort out easy enough..
I filled rivets with normal solder, but never with silver. I'll keep that in mind..

#16 5 years ago

This switch on the Ball Count unit shouldn't close until the Add Ball Count coil's solenoid plunger is near the end of its stroke. Then the Control Bank should reset at almost the same time the Ball Count unit advances from 2, 4, or 7 balls to 3, 5, or 8.

Note that this circuit runs on full 120 volt line voltage.

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#17 5 years ago

Does anyone have an actual picture of the switch that Howard is pointing to on the schematic please (from this or any contemporary Gottlieb AAB)?

On my game this switch is normally closed and opens at the end of stroke - I'm wondering if the end of the outer switch blade has broken off so that instead of the plunger arm closing the switch ( and opening the lockin switch through a spacer) it has mistakenly been adjusted so that now the arm opens both switches

This theory would also fit well with another unusual behaviour it has - if the ball count unit is in certain positions, closing the coin switch doesn't reset the game, it just causes the control bank reset coil to kick. I have to step the ball count unit down (which I can do through the trough switch) before it will go into reset from the coin switch

Thanks, it does feel like we might be getting somewhere!

#18 5 years ago

My camera's not been giving the sharpest pictures lately, but it can be made out..
These were takin' in the total reset (zero) position. The switch that the arrow is on
should only be open at total reset. (This is the switch you asked about)

The inside switch: (closest to the nuts of the bolt) opens the reset coil. It opens at
total reset, and closes with one step up..
The second switch: Zero position control - opens at total reset, closes with one step up.
The third switch: Completes the circuit to the DB Relay - closed at total reset, opens
with one step up..

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#19 5 years ago
Quoted from HowardR:

switch on the Ball Count unit shouldn't close until the Add Ball Count coil's solenoid plunger is near the end of its stroke

Quoted from Incomer:

On my game this switch is normally closed and opens at the end of stroke

Did you check the wire colors to make sure you have the right switch?

#20 5 years ago

Yes I did - white-orange-black to white

Sorry Mopar - it's the other pair of switches that are the issue

These are a couple of pictures of mine:

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#21 5 years ago

What is happening is that the top switch is NC and opens when the plunger strikes the bottom leaf of the top pair

#22 5 years ago

My mistake. I just took a look at my schematic.
That's the problem. White on one switch, White-
Orange-Black on the other should be open, and
closed when in the energized position. The other
set should be NC, and opened when energized..

#23 5 years ago

The schematic didn't mention EOS. I should have look at my schematic the first time..
Looks like it needs a long replacement blade along with an insulating strip..
The plunger arm is actually making contact with the second blade..

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#24 5 years ago

That's really helpful - thank you for taking the time to take those photos.

Now it looks like there is a good chance of solving this.

Would I be right in thinking you have a long metal strip and then a long insulating strip and then a pair of shorter blades for the switch itself?

I'll have a look and see if I have the parts for a repair, if not I'll get some ordered

Many thanks
David

#25 5 years ago

That does explain why one less ball at start up. With that switch already being closed,
the Control Bank Reset coil would energize as soon as the wiper's snow shoes reach
it's position to complete that circuit..
Actually, not a metal strip, but that top blade itself suppose to be longer. What you see
in the last pic that I sent is the blade itself, with an insulating strip on top..
If you happen not to have the longer blade, I should have one..

#26 5 years ago

I changed the switch and set it correctly and yes I now get 3 balls and 8 balls correctly, and the start issue has gone away

A 5 ball game is now often giving me 6 balls so the next issue to fix will be the worn rivets - I'll try the silver solder as recommended by MarkG if I can

I've improved the proportion of 5 ball games temporarily by using a little Teflon lube gel on the rivets as recommended by Pinrepair as the extra bit of conductivity is helping the current to pass through the worn rivets at position 4

Thank you to everyone who contributed to this fix (and to Mopar for the offer of the switch blade) - I really appreciate greatly the support

David

#27 5 years ago

One last thing is that you might want to check that spring loaded snow show.
I wouldn't be surprised if the roundness is worn flat which makes it close to 1/16"
shorter than the others which makes a huge difference..

#28 5 years ago

OK thanks - they do look worn

They don't look easy to change - is there a guide on the net somewhere?
I couldn't see anything on Pinrepair except a comment not to try it unless absolutely necessary!

I do have a scrap unit from a more modern game that I could use the shoes from if I knew how to swap them over without damaging them or the disc

#29 5 years ago

I don't like disagreeing with the guide, but they're actually a piece of cake to change..
On some disc, the tail has a slit and has to be squeezed together just a bit. I've
done quite a few on the Gottlieb Ball Count wiper boards, and I'm pretty certain
all you have to do is de-solder the wire off and melt the remaining of what solder may
be left on the snow shoe, and it'll slip right out. Of coarse you'll want to lift up on
it so the spring is compressed as you're doing the de-soldering..
Most likely only changing the inside one (which is most likely the most worn) will
do the trick, but if both seem worn, might as well change the two..
The thing is, when soldering the wire to the new shoe, you'll want just a small
amount at the tail (end) to ensure that the snow shoe doesn't bottom out where
it's soldered..
This alone will cure the problem, but filling in those rivets would be double insurance,
then with lube, she'll surely be good to go..

#30 5 years ago
Quoted from Mopar:

that spring loaded snow show.

Snow shoe, ACH! I could never understand that terminology. Much more like an ice skate than a snow shoe!

#31 5 years ago

OK Thanks Mopar
I'll have a practice on a scrap unit before working on the real one!

#32 5 years ago
Quoted from jrpinball:

Snow shoe, ACH! I could never understand that terminology. Much more like an ice skate than a snow shoe!

You're right. I have always referred them as spring loaded wipers (and still do), but also followed suit with
snow shoes after hearing it a few times. If they actually were formed as snow shoes, I'm sure not only itself,
but also the rivets would have worn much less..

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