I debating on posting this thread but I think we as a community deserve to have transparency for these quite expensive products. I'm not trying to throw anyone under the bus but it seems like a centralized discussion is warranted to determine if there are wider spread issues or if there are simply isolated incidents.

My involvement here stems from my JJP POTC chipping around the narrow sling posts. These are Mirco produced playfields. When I posted a thread in the JJP forum about this issue there were many people who were in the same boat. The conclusions we have come to in that thread is that the narrow sling posts used had sharp edges on the bottom and this caused cutting in to the clear/art and eventually chipping of those pieces and bare wood exposed. This is combined with the very clear issue of a "soft" clear coat. Around any other posts and washers we have very apparent bunching up of the clear coat with a very real possibility that those areas will chip and crack as well. JJP has taken some responsibility here with a sort of "hidden" offer (JJP does not seem to announce these kinds of things anywhere) of a discounted playfield to those with chipping. They released a "kit" to add wider star posts to the slings with washers under them. The community devised and adopted a preventative measure that TNA owners came up with using a rubber washer under star posts.

Through this I've heard from other Mirco playfield owners that similar things have happened to them. I don't want to call anyone out, everyone can post their own experience and the community can decide.

POTC owners have contacted JJP over and over with many delayed or non-responses and very little acceptance of the issue. Several have also contacted Mirco directly or posted in related threads with no response. Not that Mirco is on the hook for JJP playfield issues, but it's their product in the end and their reputation.

It would be nice to hear both good and bad experiences with your own Mirco playfields, both from a pinball manufacturer installed product to a direct playfield purchase. I've read a lot of threads from a lot of different owners of different manufacturer's games and playfields who have reported issues. It's hard to take anything concrete away from all of these threads as there are many differing opinions as to what causes these issues, who is at fault, what expectations there should be for newer "environmentally friendly" methods of production, etc. I've read that Stern uses three different playfield manufacturers and some of their playfields have issues, maybe the Mirco ones? I know JJP had earlier issues with their Bader WOZ playfields (I had one of those) but their Mirco versions seem to have been much better, so why issues with DI and POTC? Some suggest methods have changed, some suggest Mirco has levels of quality which lead to issues.

Here are a few pictures of my POTC playfield issues and a link to the JJP related thread:
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/potc-who-has-playfield-dimples-cracking-wear-around-star-posts-

The original JJP POTC club thread that started the POTC discussion:
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/jjp-pirates-of-the-caribbean-official-owners-and-fan-club

Dialed-In owners talk about their playfield chipping, I think those are Mirco too?
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/dialed-in-owners-and-fans-club

Discussion in JJP making more POTC thread
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/will-jjp-make-more-potc/page/8#post-5066567

AFM Mirco playfield wear discussion
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/afm-mirco-playfields-whats-the-wear-situation-after-a-couple-of-years#post-1899111

Maybe Mirco will chime in and clear the air give some input as to why these things might be happening.

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Why do we need to know that? We know an abundance of playfields have no issue or there would be a lot more posts here.

For sure, then Mirco should be able to tell us that, no? How long should they take to cure? I was wondering how long it took to produce a batch (whatever number that is), package them, ship them and for JJP to unbox and use them. Has to be at least several weeks.

Thanks for commenting, I was hoping you might show up. Can you share any light on your experience with Mirco and/or other brand playfields in your restorations? Do you see similar issues on new/repro playfields with clear bunching up or chips (with art removed)? Does another coat of clear (and more cure time) help in these situations?

I can see that, but I guess I didn't think it mattered for the discussion.

Ah it feels so good to read that. The Spray Max thread has people swearing it takes months of cure time. I put my JP playfield back together after a few days and it has zero issues with indentations. I am sure they aren't the exact same products that you use but they are made for automotive repair and I kept insisting that no auto repair place waits any significant time after applying clear to finish the car.

I'm not seeing the issue?

Ahhhh yea.

There is definitely something to be said for end-user installs.

And I am sure there is something to be said for us picky-ass pinball fans.

Ha, not sarcasm! Now I see what you are saying.

This is not a tractor assembly line. Have you seen videos of pins being made? And not to mention these are relatively expensive toys with low production numbers. Hand made care should be taken when building $12k toys.

So, here's a question that I think no one can answer.

If we take one of these "mushy" playfields and clear over it with some top notch auto clear will that prevent it from bunching up? Is it the clear that can be "helped along" or is this a problem starting at the wood/art?

So what are you saying in terms of the cracking, chipping and mushy clear in the pictures above. What went wrong?

So... Both of those things are happening then.

Hum.. Clatskanie, eh? Got room to do a few more playfields?

Well, that sort of goes outside the scope of the situation really. If it is a line problem with JJP or Stern then they need to solve that and Mirco would be the one to be able to back that up, but he seems non-existent when it comes to questions like this. Or he needs to talk with his customers (JJP) and work out a joint statement, someone needs to take some responsibility. If any company isn't paying their line workers a living wage then that is sad to hear and maybe the pinball community can speak with their pocketbooks. But, how do we know? I've personally reached out to Mirco and my questions about sales get answered quickly but other inquiries never are responded to. But the issue clearly doesn't seem isolated to installation issues as we've heard from many here who have had problems with repro playfields that they bought directly so it surely points to a Mirco quality issue.

No matter if other playfield manufacturers have this issue or other issues the question really is with Mirco. CPR isn't providing playfields to manufacturers as far as I know so any problems should be able to be dealt with them directly. The bigger issue here is that we are sort of in limbo as no one wants to take responsibility and JJP sort of washed their hands of the causation and simply offered either the post kit "fix" (which is really a lame attempt) or a discounted playfield without making mention of what or why this was caused. So, you buy another playfield and then what? You have the same production process.. if we let these playfields sit will they eventually cure hard? Will another coat of clear help? We have no idea.. and $600 later you can only gamble to find out.

I have to imagine the sheer volume of manufacturer direct playfields Mirco produces pales in comparison to the repros, so maybe the the process is different. Either way, I hope this post might draw some attention and light to the subject and maybe get someone to respond. I don't know if it is just my perception, unfounded expectation of manufactures or what but it really feels like both Mirco and JJP just ignore issues and keep pressing on. As an owner of two JJP games that both have had significant playfield issues I really feel someone needs to step up.

The decals JJP produced for the WOZ playfield issues had to be purchased (that is unbelievable) and didn't entirely fix the situation. There are now depressions on the playfield where the clear and art has been chipped away and that changes gameplay. The ball gets stuck at the exit to TNPLH because of that depression. The playfield is still broken under the decals, now that game is worth much less than another produced with a playfield that had no issues. That all seemed to be swept under the rug or ignored by everyone, I don't know.

Personally, and this might just be my experience, I can't get JJP to reliably respond. Maybe I'm too much a thorn in their sides but it's hit or miss. I don't want to keep shitting on them because I have huge appreciation for the work they do for the community, the products they produce, the employees who post here (which I can't believe that is part of their job, seems like they do it out of care of love for the game), etc. but I have never seen an announcement from JJP about any of this stuff. Yes, someone linked to a "notice" that JJP posted somewhere, but certainly JJP didn't advertise it for either the post kit or the playfield deal. I've signed up for their mailing list many times, never got a single email. If I didn't participate here I'd be even more upset with the non-resposnes as I'd have no idea what is going on and I guarantee far from 50% of the POTC owners are on pinside. I've emailed about this issue, many times, and have gotten 1 or 2 replies of "hang on, we're looking in to it" (one of those replies was asking if I had messed up balls or something, as if this was a new issue or concept when it had been reported by others months earlier) and never a further single email from them. Nothing to tell me there was a resolution, nothing to offer me an option, nothing to update me on what they found. It gets really frustrating. A little bit of up front customer relations would go a long way. Ignoring the issues, hoping that only those concerned enough contact to find out what their options are, that only a few people actually pony up the money for new playfields, etc seems to be the choice they are making and that doesn't sit well with me.

But... games keep selling.

For sure it's partly a JJP thread, I suppose. Although the reason I posted is because I've been contacted by Mirco customers (because of my other JJP specific thread) about their repro playfield issues. That got me thinking that it's more a Mirco problem in production more so than a JJP causation. However, the POTC specific issue culpability is with JJP since it is their end product and they also have some liability in the sharp posts used and tightness they were installed with. But even under my pop bumper base there was a huge amount of bunching (shown in my original images) which isn't related to those sharp posts.

I guess I also feel that in other industries I've almost always had issues like this handled in a more professional and upfront manner. Higher end car manufacturers, higher end home electronics, etc. have always treated me justly when their products had issues. Given the high price of their products, the name reputation they have and quality they imply their response to my issues have given me confidence in moving forward in purchasing more of their products. I don't feel this issue is any different, it's just the manufacturer is small enough on global scale and the market narrow and specific enough that there aren't other options. In essence, JJP can react how they want and likely not really lose customers. I'm certainly re-considering my Wonka purchase now. I've tossed plenty of my money to JJP in replacement parts and fixes on a game that is less than a year old. Granted they have stepped up in a few cases but that was mainly my dealings with Shannan and handling warranty claims or a part that should definitely not have broken in a few months (even though outside their warranty).

On a side note, I don't know if anyone has read the JJP warranty but your warranty is void unless you register the game within 5 days.

I'm wondering based on your perspective, are you expecting that future JJP pins will continue to have playfield issues and will you buy them?

What issues did you have and what did JJP do to fix them?

With my WOZ what they did was sell me decals. Granted, they went to the trouble to print them. With pirates they are offering for me to spend ~$600 for another playfield which may well have the same issues. There is only so much prevention that can be done to not get the issues we are seeing, in some cases almost nothing can be done (places where a #6 washer has to contact the playfield directly, for example). The clear is rippling and bunching up around those washers now. So on a new playfield, were I to spend the $600 and the 60 hours or whatever to do the swap, how do I know this won't happen again?

I'm not one of those "omg, it has dimples" kinds of people. I expect a playfield will see wear, I wholly support Cliffy and can't fathom why a manufacturer hasn't jumped in bed with him to offer them installed as an upgrade. But I really have zero control or prevention I can do in this instance, the game is 8 months old or something and there are plenty of people who seem to not have issues (or at least don't see them or aren't reporting them) so that means there will be used games on the market that are in better shape no matter how comparably we have taken care of them.

Tagentally, I think the problem probably would have been "solved" for most of us if JJP just gave us new playfields if we had visible chipping. They would have had great sentiment from the community, the discussion would likely have died down because there would be no more reason to complain and everyone would basically know that this playfield is "soft" and decide what to do with it on their own. I am sure from a profitability standpoint that would be detrimental so charge a bit for them and not only are they not out of pocket (what could their cost really be on a playfield in bulk) but the uptake on that offer will be considerably less than those who have issues or would have opted in for the free playfield. Then let JJP deal with Mirco in any regard that they think is appropriate, in essence going to bat for their consumer. I mean, not to mention they really just don't respond to this stuff so what are you going to do? Sue them? There is really little inventive for them unless the community creates one.

Do you have a chipped playfield? I can't see what reasoning then that they should deny that to you. Seems quite logical.

I suspect if they did that it would be hugely detrimental to their budget. Imagine that they probably don't have enough parts to do that and so many would need to be reproduced. I suppose that could work out for them if they make more games but the cost of a fully populated playfield shipped to them is likely thousands, times how many games are going to have issues. What can their profit margin be on a game? Plus, the people with a bad playfield don't have issues with the rest of the playfield items... and JJP couldn't reuse those items so it's a big loss for them. That's why I think the price is what it is... I mean, it's arbitrary, up to their own decision what they think will resolve the situation enough for their reputation to be unsullied. Jack said in a recent interview that he doesn't have to disclose what his company is doing because it isn't public. That pretty much tells you what you need to know. That precisely stands by the "non announcement" of these decisions by JJP. People still buy the games, POTC couldn't have been more popular it seems. Unless the community pushes for change there is zero reason for them to change.

Hopefully it is either ok or cracks soon Sorry man.

I mean, you don't have to convince me, that's what I was campaigning for in the beginning. But JJP also lets on nothing as far as what they read here and what they are reacting to. Like I said, I never got any direct information from them about the kit or playfield discount so I'm only going off what other people posted. I sent that recent "under pop bumper" image and got no reply (which was a reply to my ongoing emails to the asking for resolution).

Re: Stern
I think it's fair to say based on the many more Stern pins that are out there compared to JJP that they don't have a similar systemic problem. There have been reported incidents but no where near the same proportion or there would be huge backlash here on pinside. There would be no way we didn't know. No judgement on playfield production quality or process, just we know the end product doesn't have a consistent issue with Stern.

I had no problem with my Cyclone Gold from them. Clear seemed excellent, no dents, etc.

Oh wow. That's interesting news. So there is a precedent of them sending out playfields for chipped ones for free, reject or not. I mean, I bought reject WOZ playfields and there is absolutely nothing wrong with them. But if they sent you a free one (granted it should have been flawless) they should send everyone a free one who has chipping.

I think that changes the game a bit.

What substantiation do you have for this? I'm not familiar with this sentiment, but I've only been really paying attention to this kind of thing for a few years (when I had chipping on my WOZ). All my other games are much older and obviously have different kinds of playfield finishes.

Do you have substantiation as to how the community demanded this? I'm wondering what the community did to sway a manufacturer to make changes in their product to this extent. I don't see anyone advertising their playfield as "better" or with "more clear" which would seem befitting an additional cost they surely incurred.

Interesting, thanks for the input. I've been searching the forums for a while on various playfield issues but maybe I didn't go back far enough to find this.

Btw, I should note on the "thick clear" that I sprayed my JP playfield with SprayMax 2X Auto Clear. I put on a few thin coats and several thick coats. Barely time for it to cure inbetween (maybe hours). It cured hard as a rock in a few hours and I sanded and polished it a few days later. The clear was thick enough to fill in depressions where I had to replace decals and they were sunken in a bit. I obviously don't know the actual thickness compared to Mirco (or other) playfield clear but certainly it can be done. Sure, restorers and pros are posting about weeks of curing and such but it doesn't seem that is absolutely a necessary part of the process. Maybe theirs looks better or lasts longer, but I can't really see a difference in my result and the CPR Gold Cyclone playfield I bought. I'm one guy, limited information and experience but I don't think this outcome is limited to me.

I mean, I have no control over the cure of that product. It's an all in one, two part in a can. It cures however it cures. I mean shit.. not hard, not soft.. is this the 3 pinball bears?

I also have no idea how thick the layers are. I have nothing to measure that miniscule of an amount and "thick" is my perception, who knows what it actually is. I do know that thin coats produced a somewhat "orange peel" effect and thicker ones did not.

In the other JJP specific thread there has been at least one post of a Wonka with bunched up clear coat around a post. Others have mentioned that yes, the problem continues.

I mean, I guess I made it sound like I've never painted before. I have a few HVLP guns and have shot plenty of latex. I just try to stay away from 2 part or oil based stuff as I hate the cleanup. Gone through many, many a can of spray paint for all kinds of projects. Definitely took some time to learn techniques, watched many videos on all kinds of painting. But yeah, I sanded the orange peel and pretty much between every major layer of clear. I can commiserate with the vertical spraying... I have an airless paint sprayer that I used on my house and ended up with many runs that needed wiping down. It tosses out a LOT of paint and you gotta be careful about some of those tricky combination of materials/depths (eaves mostly). I think my JP came out great... took some good amount of machine buffing to go from 2000 grit to polished surface but luckily I have a buttload of cutting and polishing compounds from my finer car ownership days.

Who makes the playfield?

?

I thought Stern playfields had a pretty decent reputation based on the number of titles and games they've made and the issues they've had? Aren't they the ones who've sent out populated playfields as well?

Heh, sorry, maybe I was mixing up my thoughts.

OK, so my one thought was it seems like they don't have the percentage of issues that JJP has with their playfields. Granted JJP only has 5 games and so with the issues they have had a high percentage of their games (either title based or production numbers sold) had playfield issues. It seems like Stern sells way more games and, while they have had issues, it appears as though those issues are a much lower percentage of titles and games sold. And in the instances where they have had issues they have generally made them right?

I'm wondering if that is correct? I don't know the issues Sterns have had, the Ghostbusters problems, etc.

To bring the two worlds together, these posts were on the same day... clear thickness here and in the JJP specific thread:

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/potc-who-has-playfield-dimples-cracking-wear-around-star-posts-/page/28#post-5085712

The 24 billion dollar question. Lots of speculation and informed opinions but no one can tell us but Mirco and JJP.

For anyone following along at home with the POTC saga, I've decided to post my conversation with JJP.

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/potc-who-has-playfield-dimples-cracking-wear-around-star-posts-/page/31#post-5108028

The update to this thread should be "yes"... heh. Many things have come to light since I started this and there is definitely a quality issue.

Good luck with that.

Between JJP and Mirco no one says anything. Definitely an oddity of the pinball community, at least to me in my experience with many industries in my life. Companies are allowed to get away with this kind of stuff because the market is small, there aren't a lot of producers, licenses are tightly held and there are definitely a lot of "back channel" operations going on. Jack told me on the phone he didn't consider this a Mirco problem (he now denies that), I can't see how it isn't. Mirco won't reply at all to any of these issues... ever. He's been contacted many ways, given a multitude of opportunities to make any sort of statement and nothing has come to light that I know of. Until people speak with their wallets or some other major demonstration of frustration there will be no change in how these companies operate. Everything is shrouded in a cloud of mystery.