Probably not.

Polyurethane does not dry as in air dry. It dries by catalytic conversion. As soon as you add your catalyst and mix it up the conversion has started. There is a term called pot life which is low long the paint will remain in pourable form in your paint reservoir. Leave the paint mix in your paint gun beyond pot life and if you are lucky will only have to spend a couple of hours digging it out of all the nooks and crannies in your paint gun. You will only fail to ignore pot life warnings one time.

Depending on temperature, the pot life could be as short as 30 minutes on a hot day and as long as 2 hours on a cold day. But once you apply the paint it will be dry to the touch in 20 minutes; That's dry, but not cured.

The conversion rate depends on the amount of heat. I.E. it will cure faster on a hot day as opposed to a cold day. And lighter coats are going to cure somewhat faster as opposed to thicker coats where it is going to take awhile for the 'buried" paint to "dry" completely (see pot life).

And that is the problem the pinball makers can't figure out how to defeat. Time is money. Stern and the others do not have the luxury of waiting for a year for a play field to cure and they can't bake it. At least, they cannot bake a play field at elevated temps. But they might be able to bake them at 80 degrees in a forced air furnace for awhile and get a cure. 80 degrees would probably not trash a play field, but the purchase of a forced air furnace would be required. And then it would need to be decided on how many play fields can be loaded for one pass. A forced air oven where 500 play fields could be loaded would cost a fortune. Even an oven for 100 play fields would cost a lot of jack. And then you have the energy expense of keeping the thing hot.

The only sure thing is that production costs would go up.

I give all my CPR and Mirco playfields a minimum of 12 months cure time before populating. So far, no problems, although I have yet to populate my CPR Space Shuttle playfield which is I can't even remember how many years old. It's probably OK by now.

Last night I had an opportunity to play several games on a Ruby Red WOZ.

The owner bought this pin NIB a couple of years ago. The play field was immaculate. The owner said there were some small dimples but I could not see them.

This all begs the question about what has changed.

I doubt JJP waited 12 months to allow for the clear to cure. And that play field looked almost brand new.

So, what has changed to cause these pooling problems and other issues?

All it takes is buying cheaper products for the mix. Cheap out on the chemistry, little less hardener in the clear and presto you have a soggy mess.

Wanna lay on one fat pass on the clear instead of 2 or 3 layers with time to flash in between and you get this puddling mess.

No one has the time to do it right. Hurry hurry and get it out the door. Hey no worries because no one is gonna spend the money to argue and ship it back.

We are all guilty of wanting these products and rolling the dice on the quality that we are gonna receive.

Make a stand and stop ordering or buying this stuff that we all complain about until things get done properly.

-Mike

So just wanted to point this out. Doing a playfield swap on an early WoZ Emerald City LE right now and noticed this, unfortunately too late. The first picture is the original playfield. Not sure who made it as it doesn't have any identifiable marks that I can see. Yes the original had bad wear, but this game was routed for 9 years so I would expect that.

The second picture is of the new playfield and you can clearly see the Mirco marking.

Anyways, started to reassemble the underside components on the Mirco and the first screw tip popped through the artwork on the other side! WTF!

So I broke out the calipers and look at the difference! Both are 9 ply plywood, but the difference is almost 1/16" difference! While that may not seem like a lot, it's more than enough missing to make the original screws bust through the other side.

The biggest issues were the black plastic holders for the switches in the in/outlanes and loops. Basically anything like stand-ups with thin metal. Flipper bases, magnet mounts, etc were fine.

Now another issue with a thinner playfield is all the magnet cores had to be adjusted back down. No big issue as they have adjustment. The roll-over buttons were a different matter. Thru right outlane TOTO buttons and 3 in the center of the playfield were up way too high. So had to put washer shims between the playfield and plastic housing to drop them down a bit.

I guess the point is look at to replacing the original screws with shorter screws or be very careful not to over tighten anything. But whatever, be CAREFUL.
IMG_20200112_113744 (resized).jpgIMG_20200112_113857 (resized).jpg

You have one of the early bader playfields in the game which were made out of thicker wood as they were not able to source the correct thickness for pinball games. Yes there might be some things you need to check out as some screws might be longer on this version. For all later versions the modifications were removed as all used the correct thickness. If you have any questions on what is different I would suggest to contact jjp for details.

Just to be clear here, this is not a problem of our playfields but of bader playfields.

Regards,
Mirco

No, no it wasn't. It hasn't been out that long unless it was a production sample machine. But even then, I wouldn't call the show/sample time "routed."

OK my math is bad. 2012 or 2013 to 2019. I guess maybe 7 or 8 years. But regardless, on route the entire time.

I have one of the early ECLEs at August 2013. I believe they started shipping in June/July of 2013. So that would make yours 6.5 years old at the worst if it was one of the first ones out. But yeah, the bader playfields did not hold up well...

Mirco, I recently received one of your Quicksilver play fields. It is beautiful. Your Quicksilver ad on Pinside says it is, "protected with a special ceramic clearcoat - same as we use on JJP/Dutchpinball/Heighway games."

https://pinside.com/pinball/market/shops/1042-mircoplayfields/02551-quicksilver-playfield

My question is this: What is ceramic clearcoat? Trying to find any valid information on the internet is an impossibility.

How is it different polyurethane clear that has been around for years? What are its advantages? What are its disadvantages? How long does it take to completely cure?

Thanks

I also have a storry.

I ordered a new TAF playfield and this is what I got.

I didn’t wanna accept that and Mirco agreed (after I showed him the video and he told me that it looks not so bad and should be ok with the woodrails mounted) I could send it back and he’ll send me a replacement. So I sent it back (large package Switzerland -> Germany) was about 60$ which I payed of my own money. Few days later he called me and told me he won’t pick it up by the customs because he would have to pay VAT and that’s not worth it. He didn’t pick it up and it was sent to me again and I could pay AGAIN for the postage. He called me and told me that this playfield is in tolerance and ok. JJP playfields sometimes look even worse he said. Lol?!?
Problem is he’s nearly the only guy doing repros, so what can you do .

Sounds horrible!
Does it get better with the siderails attached?

I have bought a repro playfield from Buthamburg who is also from Germany and I have ONLY positive things to say about the work he does.
Great playfields, fast and perfect customer service as well.

I SLIGHTLY sprayed it with water from the back side and clamped it between 2 wood plates for about 1month and it was pretty flat again. But in my opinion it's not the job a customer has to do when he's buying a 1000$ playfield.

It makes me wonder how many play fields like this make it into a machine by a manufacturer.

I also have a AFM and TZ playfield from him and they look nice, but i still haven't installed them. A Mirco CV playfield i have installed, but i just play it with a playfield protector. I don't like dimples and i'm pretty sure it would dimple as most playfields do.

…..Not buy from him....

My whirlwind was similar. https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/playfield-bowing

I could smell that it wasn't dry when i received it. There was still plenty of solvent outgassing for a while. I put it out in the sun for several days and I also waited about 6 months before installing it. By that time the bowing had settled from 1/2" to less than 1/4" and that was easily pulled in from the rails.

Annoying and shouldn't happen, but it's recoverable.

Not trying to make small your concerns, but a play field is made of wood. They can and do warp. There is no predicting which piece of ply wood is going to warp and which one is not. But when you add your side rails, and the apron and add all of the mounting parts and install it into a cabinet, the warping will most likely disappear. I did not say "will"; I said "most likely will".

What happens is part of pinball design. There are two hanger "hooks" that position your play field to the lockdown bar receiver. When you clamp the lock down bar it presses down on these two hooks and pulls the play field into straight position. At the back of the play field, the construction is designed to also push down on the play field. Basically, both ends of the play field are clamped into position which forces the play field straight.

You can test out what I say by installing the attachment hardware to your bare play field and installed into the cab. I think you fiend out that it will be straight, flat, and run true.

I speak from experience. I have a 40 year old pin I restored. When disassembled, I noticed I had a big bow in the play field. The thing looked like a canoe it was warped so badly. But I put it all back together and it clamped in tight and straight and plays fantastically. I have another play field the same size as my warpy one. It is straight as an arrow and as flat as a table.

Put the mounting hardware on and do a mock install of your bare play field. Let us know what you find out.

A pin maker is not going to toss out a warped play field. It is going to clamped into the cab and pulled straight.

Go to the lumber yard and try to find a piece of plywood that is not warped even just a little bit. You will be looking for a long time.

As i said it's almost flat now after i clamped it betwenn wood plates. But i don't get why such playfields are sent to customers and why he not even took it from the customs after telling me i can send it back for a replacement.

I read what you said. I just thought I would share with you what I learned from my experience and let you know that all will probably turn out well.

Quite possibly the play field did its warping in the shipping box as it ships through several ship points with different weather and temps.

I can't answer that other than with customs a VAT was applied and it was going to cost him money. As a sidebar, what I don't understand is why a manufacturer cannot receive a returned product without having to deal with VAT. It does not make sense.

I am not a manufacturer. I am not selling anything. And I am not sitting here typing up a defense for Mirco, but experiencing what I have experienced with my own warped play field and connecting some dots, I would have told you to do a mock install and see if the play field would straighten out once it was installed. If after the mock install, if it was still warped, I would tell you to saw in in half, send me pics of the destroyed play field and I would send you another, with the advise that the 2nd one could warp, as well.

Doing a mock install is a bit of a PIA, I understand that. but I'll just add to my list of strange things I am finding out that I have to deal with in this imperfect hobby.

Shipping a piece of wood from one part of the world to the other can have an effect on it. If the relative humidity in one place is different than the other, I could see it causing a warp. I have seen some peculiar things happen to materials I have shipped by truck from the east coast to the west coast of the US. We think going over the rocky mountain range during certain times of the year can sometimes have an effect on our goods.

Rofl. I Dont know which kind of crap plyfa you are used to in the us.
I would t even accept that for protective floorings while working with wheelbased scaffolding.
That is just shite right there.
I've had Marine plyfa standing leaning against a barn outside for years looking better then that taf crud.

The lesson is never ever do buissness with that sorry excuse for a company.

Well, since the US pinball manufacturers exported a lot of pins to Europe and around the world (you know, Gottlieb, Bally, Williams, Stern) I would imagine you and I are probably using the same play fields. And now that Mirco seems to be the big production scaled play field producer the world around, I imagine we are still using the same play fields. Speaking of which, we are talking about a play field made in Gemany, not the US.

I don't know the composition of pinball play field wood so I would not want to use it for scaffolding floors, either. Matter of fact, I don't think I would use anything less than 3/4" thick plywood for a floor. Any floor. But since we are talking pin play field wood and not scaffolding, your statement does not really apply to the situation here. If you have something else, I am all ears.

Marine plywood is a little different then the "regular" stuff. I would think that is a little more expensive than just "run-of-mill" plywood. Replacement play fields are already pushing the $1000.00 price. I doubt anyone wishes to pay extra money to avoid something that might warp and something that will, more than likely, be fastened down and clamped into a flat surface.

I could understand that if the playfield would have shipped around the world, but Switzerland (Where i live) is just next to Germany. So pretty far away from "around the world". Anyway, the playfield is flat now after my clamping. I just can't imagine that the playfield wasn't warped already when they packed it.

Hi, @Highclasspinball...
The new Gorgar playfield looks very nice -- which brings up a question for many of us...

Can I ask you to please direct us where to go to read the public statements from Mirco on what they've figured out and solved with the recent playfield issues?

I've tried browsing a few recent TL;DR threads looking for official statements, and I've come up empty.

Where can we go to gather enough facts to begin to regain the confidence required to consider purchasing new playfields like Gorgar and others that are coming to market?

thank you!
-mof

All you can do is read recent reviews of PF's (if available) and roll the dice if you truly need one. No company will EVER publicly acknowledge any previous issues as doing so would open a floodgate of complaints from past buyers that are convinced (rightly or wrongly) that their purchases had been affected. If they publicly admit there was a problem they *may* be legally responsible to replace it or offer some kind of restitution so you won't hear any mea culpa's anytime in the future.

The closest I've seen was Spooky admitting some of their TNA PF's had problems but then promising all issues were resolved.
From the lack of complaints on their next two titles it seems like they have indeed done just that. R&M may only be in bars and a few homes so far but eagle eyed customers and owners have given it a big thumbs up for quality (at least at this early stage).

.

You are correct here. They do business right. They lead by example:
1. announce a problem
2. promise improvement/resolution
3. deliver
4. restore confidence

Is there any other smart way to do business?
-mof

I have a Mirco Funhouse PF & i have experienced some bad chipping between the ball trough & and shootet lane. Roughly a 5cent piece of the clear coat has chipped away to wood. Once i found it, i used some thick clear sticky mounting plastic (squishy) over the damage as i am assuming its caused by the ball ejecting into the shooter lane. As its hidden under the tray itd not realky sighted, but it clearly has me very concerned. The plastic i have placed over it is now creating a cushion that takes the force, so hoping now i wont see any further worsening of tge cracking.

Ive also had chipping up near the mirror hole & will get a cliffy to do the same there.

Was pretty disappointed & obviously a bit worried about it

My Gorgar looks amazing, except for the large chip that happened at the kickout hole about 50 games in. I also had to do extensive redrilling as all of the rail holes were mis-aligned. Some by close to an inch.
Now that I have dealt directly with Mirco I don't care if the quality improves. He'll never get another dime from me.

Shit, thats what happened with my Funhouse- 50 games in too.

Did u have issues dealing with him too?

Here is a solution. Use a credit card to purchase and if he sends you shit reverse the charges throught the CC company.

Also installed a FH playfield from him, had pooling which led to chipping only after a hand full of games, fixed the chipping by installing a large washer under the post which hides it, but was gutted after taking the time to complete a full playfield swap.

I will give Mirco credit though, I contacted him and replacement playfield was sent out, he claimed the issues with the clear had been resolved, and the replacement would not pool or chip. Unfortunately it had a cracked insert on one of the clock inserts and was severely bowed, exactly like the Addams in the video above, even after mounting side rails onto it as soon as i received it.

I don't know if you could call it issues. He never bothered to respond to any of my messages. He was real quick to respond when I was buying it. Once there was an issue he was a ghost.

Yeah I've noticed he's on Pinside promoting his stuff but anytime anyone post issues he avoids those post. I've been lucky that the machines I purchased, that he produced playfields for, haven't had issues. BUT seeing all the people that are having issues and the lack of response or poor service has me steering away from buying anything from the guy. If you provide a crap product at least you can do is pay for returning shipping and offer a refund or replacement. This would at least make him more conscious of the quality he puts out. Right now he's making the same money off of people that receive crap quality as opposed to those that dont have an issue.

My experience also... And similar to others I've heard.

Has the quality improved at all in 2022 as far as the playfields at JJP?

I have a Dialed In and a Willy Wonka. Both without any playfield issues.
I had a GnR, also no issues.

Why do you ask?
Why Risk it?
Seriously; make JJP and Mirco *PROVE* over several makes of games that the problem is resolved beyond any doubt. Until then, keep your money in your pocket.

Makes me wonder if I should reinstall my HEP restored Indiana Jones playfields or install the spare Mirco Indiana Jones playfields.
Both look pretty good after over 12 months of cure time...................................
Hmmmmmmmm. What to do, what to do.

I had problems with a Mirco Quicksilver play field. Someone talked about HEP placing a washer under each post to lift the post up and off the play field.

I found something different.

These are rubberized washers. They lift the post up off of the play field. They do not take very much torque to tighten down and the rubber compresses just a little. They are "cupped" but placing them in a vise flattens them out.

IMG_0270 (resized).JPG

IMG_0271 (resized).JPG

IMG_0276 (resized).JPG

The part number is 290250 if anyone is interested.
--------------------------------------------------------

I removed a couple of posts to see how well they worked.

All that is there is a small stain of rubber that wipes off with your finger. There is no compression distortion in the paint at all.

IMG_0341 (resized).jpg

That looks very smart to me. Well done.

That’s true, but I live in Belgium and finding a replacement for my very crappy White Water playfield isn’t easy. In fact, I think Mirco might be the only solution… and yet I’m pretty stressed just thinking about a brand new PF full of mistakes. Isn’t there a “happy or money back guarantee”? This is what their site says about their White Water PF:

“Brand new Mirco playfield. The playfield comes completely dimpled and drilled, ready to install, protected with a special robot applied ceramic clearcoat - same as we use on JJP/Dutchpinball/Heighway games.”

How worried should I be? Again: my old White Water PF is really, really bad.

Hand tighten posts rather than using power tools. Use some common sense and realize the posts don't have to be tightened to the extreme in most cases. Most are just holding some plastics down.

At the end of the day regarding reproduced playfields, I'm just stoked that new playfields are available in nearly every desirable title. They will all look a thousand times better than what is in 99% of the games out there.

If you want to be super anal, well, you can find flaws with nearly every pinball machine, new or old, regardless of manufacture. It's a metal ball bearing that is going to fly around at supersonic speeds blasting against plastic and wood. Expect issues to occur.

When installing you have to triple check everything. If you are expecting plug and play with any playfield swap, you are going to be disappointed. I think a lot of guys just think a playfield swap is a quick and easy task, moving parts from one field to another and when they have minimal experience it turns into quite a mess rather quickly. A lot of mistakes are then irreversible to some extent.

LOL. Stern does not even much of a guarantee. Everyone else is a hobby manufacturer operating on shoe strings. When product starts blowing backwards through the pipeline, the small hobby manufacturer can get overwhelmed quickly.

"Beggars can't be choosers" is where the restore guys are stuck at.