I thought you said in the other thread you were going to let it go? That was only like 2 days ago.

How is typing this doing anything positive for pinball?

We have a saying here in NZ.. you may even have it there. It seems apt in this case. "Act your age, not your shoe size"

If you don't like what Aurich has to say, put him on ignore, and move on.

Thanks in advance.

rd

Well you are a notoriously relaxed dude RD.

You gotta be. Live is faaaaarrrrrr too short to get into petty bickers on an Internet pinball forum. I come here because I like to play pinball machines.

For f**k sakes, we all have enough stress in our daily lives already without bringing poison to a pinball website.

Some people need to take a good look at themselves and make some good life decisions. How are you making your world a better place? How are you contributing to the things you love? If the answer is "I'm not" then time to turn it around.

IMO.

rd

We have the same saying here in the States, Prince put music to it.

prince_(resized).jpg

In Europe shoe sizes are different, so someone commonly would have a shoe size larger than their age...

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I agree.

I *do* like LCD screens and what they can bring to the table. I'm very impressed with how the LCD and the HD movie clips help immerse you in the Hobbit. But I'm only looking at it when the ball is stopped.

The LCD screen most certainly has not "killed red DMD's" for me. I absolutely love the Red DMD animations on my TWD. The artistic creativity that went into creating those dots is *very* impressive, and it is actually something that I will miss when the DMD goes away in future games.

So yeah, the answer to the question posed in the thread title: absolutely not.

Not that I have really ANY idea about this, but I could see the temptation to get lazy when using movie clips as an eye-catching feature on an LCD.

I will admit that when real images are rendered into a red DMD, they look pretty abysmal (GOT, I love ya, but eww).

Dots are that well done (Metallica, Ghostbusters) add something special to the game. It is obvious that time was spent on each detail as opposed to slapping in footage from a flick. Also, any sort of "custom" footage that may be added to an LCD display may look odd. If you hire someone to sound like Bilbo, that's fine. If you hire someone who kinda looks like Bilbo, it may look slightly out of place.

One thing that really makes the red DMD in TWD more than acceptable to me is that it isn't like GB or IM or other pins that try to take movie clips and convert them into dots that look like crap. TWD has some of the best custom dots in terms of creativity that I've ever seen. But I repeat myself.

Agreed, the dots are amazing in TWD and MET.

It seems that we have 2 schools of thought clashing with each other:

"Every pin should have a Color LCD!"
"I should be able to buy a new pin for less than $5000!"

I agree that we're in a gray area once the price goes over $6500. But if Stern pushes the Pro past the $5k mark to update the display, Pro sales are going to suffer.

The beauty of ColorDMD is that you can ease in that cost later. Ask your wife to put it under the Christmas tree, or whatever.

...3...2...1..

I prefer my games to keep score via abacus. None of these fancy-schmancy light displays.

I wouldn't say killed Red DMD
I also enjoy seven digit display games as well.

But if you ask which display is better, TBL is way ahead.

image_(resized).jpeg

For me, as a pinball enthusiast, fun trumps everything. I think LCD is the way to go unless it is done in such a way that it detracts from the fun. Or, to be blunt, if the artists, designers, and programmers can’t get their shit together and use the LCD in such a way that the player can appreciate and consume the content when playing, the LCD doesn’t do much for me as a player. If a key bit of information is two feet away from the playfield, near the top of 27 inch screen, amongst a ton of other graphics and animations all over the screen at the same time, while one or more balls are flying around on the playfield and you’re dealing with hand-eye coordination… that’s where I think the content doesn’t make the game more fun. Great for spectators though. In terms of fun, I have to give TBL a gold star for using a not-as-tall, wide LCD, well-integrated with in-game stop-and-go. The content is richer than a DMD, fun to look at, and easily parsed. Looks like a super fun game.

And what about the non-premium titles?

A C/B DMD title still sells for more than a C/B title SS.. heck they sell for more than most premium SS titles.

The same will happen for DMD titles.. an average LCD game will still probably sell for more than an average DMD title. This will be skewed by the # of HUO DMD titles where it will be slower for those prices to drop. We saw this for almost all the modern Stern titles... the more people spent on a game, the higher the 'floor' is for those titles. And why crappy Stern games from the early 2000s still usually demand more than a 90s DMD that is actually a better game.

I frame it as..

When I see BOP 2.0... it amazes me how much the new display brings to the game.
When I bought MET... there was no way I could not have a ColorDMD in it.. it brings so much compared to the stock display

When I play TBL.. the screen is meh to me...
When I play Hobbit... the screen isn't as big of a factor as much as the screen is different from a ColorDMD
When I play FT... the screen is insignifcant for me in terms of making me like the game or not. The backbox sure looks nicer than the non-LCD backbox FT that's for sure.

So where does that leave me? It seems color is key, but size? maybe not so much. Be innovative with the display, not just for prettier display.

Hobbit's display is so stunning.. but it hasn't really changed how I play yet.

Maybe it's like speakers... eventually you get into diminishing returns until people start using the speakers for new and different things.

So then, why is it that you upgraded BOP to 2.0?

It certainly makes the game better...and it has nothing to do with the DMD (I mean that helps for sure). BOP is a horribly boring game in original form...2.0 adds a lot of good things.

That is a funny thought - people modding their WOZs and THs with single-colour DMDs.

I did let it go after Aurich cried in the Alien thread he felt it was unfair he and Heighway were being questioned on Pinside. I was sympathetic to his cause when I read that as I have already stated. Not two days later Aurich went right back to his old ways of bashing his competitors right here in this very thread. He inflected the same actions he begged Pinside to be left alone on.

This is totally unprofessional of the only industry person left posting on Pinside. Here in the states we call that hypocrisy.

Many of us have asked what is Aurich's shoe size? Seriously. Why is he allowed to get away with things no one else is?

I have answered that question before and it is a matter of Pinside record. I'll not be redundant here and I'll not block him. Speaking of footwear, how about putting the shoe on the other foot and you guys blocking me..... No? Then don't suggest I need to to do it.

Any further discussion is off topic and I suggest you contact me privately if you wish to continue. In the meantime I will continue to call out bullshit when I see it whether it be the golden boy or someone else.

Have a day.

i played a few different games at a recent expo and got to experience all sorts of color displays and DMDs. Full Throttle, Wizard of Oz, The Hobbit, The Big Lebowski

At the end of the day, I think i preferred how they did it with the The Big Lebowski, still the traditional size more or less, and still feels like dots a bit, just higher resolution. Full Throttle didnt really need to have the display mirrored on the middle of the table, and I felt like i was playing a Redemption machine when i played The Hobbit or Wizard of Oz, not to say they are bad games, I loved them and would love to have them in my collection, but i feel its just not necessary for me to enjoy the actual game. I'm banging a steel ball around on a wooden table. you could replace a lot of these games displays with score reels or alphanumeric scores and i'd be content. Just dont change the light shows or the sounds/music on me.

LCD and other video displays have killed pinball for me.

Yep and ST is right up there as well. I think LCD has its place but like everything else in pinball certain themes really lend themselves to this upgrade, I love the dots on many B/W games and wouldn't want movie clips, just like the system 11's and that display which works perfectly for those pins, I wouldn't want DMD's, Aliens is the first theme for me that I'm excited to see an LCD in use, TH LCD and clips are quite amazing and it will be interesting to see how JJP uses it with an original theme.

Yeah and that's a big deal...does it sort of lock you in to only making liceisened themes? Well Stern is going to do that no matter what, but then the themes actually matter more it seems; although some people would already say that.

My fear from the very beginning was to me a bad LCD is worse than a bad DMD. I owned Met pro, HATE Metallica, love the game. It didn't matter my dislike as they animated them which made it more acceptable to me. Now if that was an LCD, would they have done the same thing? Or is it clips from Metallcia concerts and videos that would really horrify me.
EDIT: I always think of the little vids running on the WWE LE...if that was a full screen it would be very very bad.

Quick, let's drive him away!

They are all just tools and its all about implementation. Dots can be lazy, mind-blowingly enhancing or somewhere in the spectrum of in-between. I do see alot more potential for bad LCD than dots...in that the worst dots I see are when clips are just digitized en masse and that potential exists in LCD without any hurdles. I think my only beef with Stern is the Red color, which is super easily changed so its a 100% non-issue. The screens are just delivery methods regardless of format - what creators do with them and how they integrate and expand gameplay is what matters.

LCD displays haven't killed DMDs for me when I play. However, having an LCD display certainly enhances the gaming experience. When I play pinball alone it doesn't seem as big a deal as when I play in a group. I enjoy watching the display (DMD or LCD) when someone else is playing as it improves the experience. As much as I like to play pinball - I prefer to play while having a few cold-ones with a group of friends and in those situations the larger screen helps with making the gameplay more interactive. This is an evolutionary step-forward but it comes at an increased cost - software development. If executed poorly can detract from the experience (not really any different then bad sound, poor voice-overs, poor layout, poorly integrated toys, poor rules, etc. - just one more variable).

I like games that are mode/objective based and I could care less about actual scores. For me it is like a quest (to get to the wizard mode) so for me an LCD improves the journey. For folks that care about competing and scoring I can see how an LCD isn't as enhancing.

I'll keep on flippin as long as the balls are made from steel but as soon as they start using carbon-fiber balls well that's just not pinball. {sarcasm}

Not all dots are the same - good dots can make a huge difference. WMS got pretty good at dots near the end compared to the start - compare, say, Party Zone to Medieval Madness. Or, compare Capcom (arguably the best ever) to Sega, or even many Sterns.

I'd say the 3D rendering Stern is doing is actually worse - Ghostbusters has a bunch of it and it looks terrible because it lacks the definition that black lining adds in the hand-drawn stuff.

So, it's not even as simple as the display hardware but how it is used.

Um, OK.

No homo.

I'll just wrap up with this:

http://www.carbuzz.com/news/2016/3/19/Tech-Before-Its-Time-30-Years-Ago-Buick-Put-The-First-Touchscreen-In-A-Car-7732598/

Something nobody here has mentioned yet is the volatility of the LCD market.

Stern builds more pins than anyone else, by several orders of magnitude. For their red display, all they need is a PCB, some FETS, shift registers and red modules that are super common.

Now look at LCD. That technology changes in the blink of an eye. You can't rely on anything to stay the same over the course of one title, let alone the 7-8 years your board set may last.

When ColorDMDs aren't on sale, do you think it's because Randy doesn't want money? Look at WOZ even during its life they had to change to a bigger LCD and software scale the image to fit the old bezel.

The displays are nice in any shape or form. For me it comes down to this: I'm playing pinball not watching tv so could care less.

Killed no, do I think they are nice, damn right.

I think the lcd is nicer of course and adds possibilities like in woz with muti sectional displays showing different mode progressions. However, I like the mechanical aspect of pinball the most and would rather see the extra development costs put into playfield components (or left in my pocket) rather that something I glance at infrequently.

Future developments may make me think differently, Im excited to see what you guys have in store for aliens. Actually I was wondering, on FT the screen on the pf and the backglass are basically the same, is this going to be the case on alien?

Sure it does look nice in color but when im spending big $$$$ in the land of OZ, its all about the playfield for me

Call me crazy, but I think I prefer the dots to a full-blown color lcd. The LCDs just seem out of place, not just from a retro/nostalgia perspective. It seems like it defeats the purpose of pinball as a physical game experience, well for me at least.

I like the look/idea of limited coloration, but it is a little too much otherwise with full blown video. I think the LCD makes TBL look cheap. You have this beautiful game with this cheap ass LCD display above it, trying to steal its thunder. I know I said I prefer the smaller screen, but the more I think about it, the more JJP seems like the right idea if ur gonna do it.

What's missing here

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The GI is out on AFM.

white LED's in the backboxes, would be my guess. If you ran out and had to use color in a pinch, while your LED order arrives in the mail, that's one thing. But both games? I would have just waited for my order to show up.

Some cool 70s/80s games?

rd

For me, ColorDMD makes any monochrome display look really old these days. LCD even more so.
Hard to believe we're celebrating the regular DMD's 25th "birthday" in pinball history.
Time to step up. Good to know Stern is on it and the new display is hopefully to be revealed soon.

I have so far not put color DMD in my games as I really never look at the DMD. It does not seem to add a lot of value to your game and so I think it is really for those watching you play. I am really fine with the dots; but with that now said, I will probably go with color DMD when ALL of my games have that option available to them... (it would drive me nuts to have all of the games in color except for 2)

A Pinbot

Okay, but why? That doesn't do a lot to contribute to the discussion. As someone who tends to learn by playing with another person and watching each other to see what's best, I like having info clear and easily available on the screen. If, as a spectator, I can't easily tell what's going on or how many points it's worth, than either you're not using your display well, or you've got enough going on that you need an upgraded display.

The more information a machine is trying to convey, the more tech you should have on your display. A scrolling reel only needs to display the score because there's nothing you need to know...the value of every shot and target is on the playfield. WoZ has so many modes and features, most of which can be stacked, that it NEEDS all of its display. Someone mentioned that it would be better with DMD...seriously? Not a chance. That machine could never get the necessary info across on anything less than it has

O-din is joking. He collects mostly EM's.

I don't know if WOZ "needs" all of its display but I think it enhances the game for both the player and anyone watching. The only times I need to look at the display in WOZ is to see how many Winkie guards are left, which Haunted mode I started and the HOADC status. These items could probably be handled by changing insert colors as indicators, if there wasn't the big display. This is good thing to me because it's seldom necessary to lift my eyes from the playfield to play the game.

Get ready.

We've been hearing this for the past three years.

Well, we were hearing about KISS for four years before it finally happened so I'd say we are on the right track.

Stern probably thinks "hey, we are selling more Ghostbusters than anything we've ever sold before, so why change anything?"

rd