(Topic ID: 191081)

Haunted House blowing Pop Bumper Fuse: Help

By Lovef2k

4 years ago


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  • 51 posts
  • 7 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 4 years ago by Lovef2k
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There are 51 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 2.
#1 4 years ago

Sys. 80 So far I have cleaned all the edge connectors. Did the ground mods according to John's Jukes. Replaced coil diode. Changed out big orange cap. Rebuilt power supply. The fuse will blow after the game has been on for 15 to minutes, even when pop is inactive. I did notice that the fuse wasn't a little loose in the clips so I squeezed the clips to tighten up the fuse.

Are the connector pins for the driver board still available? I'm also wondering if somebody reversed the wires at the coil since it's apparent that the coil was changed. This game has been HUO since the late 80's.

#2 4 years ago
Quoted from Lovef2k:

Are the connector pins for the driver board still available?

Yes.

https://www.greatplainselectronics.com/products.asp?cat=77

However, not for the interconnect harness between the mpu and driver board. Only bigdaddy has those bifrucated pins for that harness.

http://bigdaddy-enterprises.com/electronics/e_connectors-156.htm

Quoted from Lovef2k:

The fuse will blow after the game has been on for 15 to minutes,

Which fuse is actually blowing?

#3 4 years ago
Quoted from ForceFlow:

Yes.
https://www.greatplainselectronics.com/products.asp?cat=77
However, not for the interconnect harness between the mpu and driver board. Only bigdaddy has those bifrucated pins for that harness.
http://bigdaddy-enterprises.com/electronics/e_connectors-156.htm

Which fuse is actually blowing?

IIRC F11 for the main pf lower left pop. Not as often but the fuse for the cellar pf pop bumper also blows. F-8. According to John's Jukes site, he said to check the connectors pin 9 and 18 A1J6 and they do look discolored, they supply 5 volts to the PBDB's but I'm thinking it might be a power problem and not logic. I have been working on this game occasionally for about a year. Back then, I bought a repro pop bumper driver from Pioneer. The fuse was still blowing with that board installed. It also has a weird issue causing the pop bumper to fire when the left flipper is activated. So back in with the original. I think I even swapped them around to test them.

#4 4 years ago

So can I use the Bifurcated pins in the black edge connector? The originals are not Bifurcated.

#5 4 years ago
Quoted from Lovef2k:

So can I use the Bifurcated pins in the black edge connector? The originals are not Bifurcated.

No, regular edge connector pins for everything except the harness between the driver board and mpu. Only that harness uses bifurcated pins. Sorry for the confusion.

#6 4 years ago
Quoted from Lovef2k:

IIRC F11 for the main pf lower left pop. Not as often but the fuse for the cellar pf pop bumper also blows. F-8. According to John's Jukes site, he said to check the connectors pin 9 and 18 A1J6 and they do look discolored, they supply 5 volts to the PBDB's but I'm thinking it might be a power problem and not logic. I have been working on this game occasionally for about a year. Back then, I bought a repro pop bumper driver from Pioneer. The fuse was still blowing with that board installed. It also has a weird issue causing the pop bumper to fire when the left flipper is activated. So back in with the original. I think I even swapped them around to test them.

Have you done a resistance test on the coil?

#7 4 years ago

Are you saying that the fuse for a particular Pop Bumper is blowing?
If so, you can swap the suspect pop bumper driver board with another one in the game to see if the problem follows.
--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
http://www.ChrisHiblerPinball.com/Contact
http://www.PinWiki.com - The Place to go for Pinball Repair Info

#8 4 years ago

I am troubleshooting pop bumper fuse issues as well on my haunted house. Why are your pop bumpers blowing the fuse for the sound board? Is there more than one F8? Have you done the mods?

http://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Gottlieb_System_80#Pop_bumper_problems

I keep blowing F4, but I'm sure I have a bad transistor on one of my pop boards.

0610172243 (resized).jpg

#9 4 years ago
Quoted from ForceFlow:

Have you done a resistance test on the coil?

Yes, the resistance was consistent with a new coil. So I need Molex .156 connector pins for the A1J6?
I just took a hard look at the schematics. I'm thinking the coil wires might be reversed going by memory from changing the coil diode today. I know the owner's dad did some work on the game. The solder job is very ameture looking. I hope I'm wrong though because I'm sure that would have caused some damage.

#10 4 years ago
Quoted from ChrisHibler:

Are you saying that the fuse for a particular Pop Bumper is blowing?
If so, you can swap the suspect pop bumper driver board with another one in the game to see if the problem follows.
--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
http://www.ChrisHiblerPinball.com/Contact
http://www.PinWiki.com - The Place to go for Pinball Repair Info

Yes the main pf lower pop blows very consistently. F-11 under the pf. It's been a while but I think I did swap the PBDB around and the same fuse blew again. Then again, I also have F-8 blowing so I could have 2 bad boards.

#11 4 years ago
Quoted from donjagra:

I am troubleshooting pop bumper fuse issues as well on my haunted house. Why are your pop bumpers blowing the fuse for the sound board?
I keep blowing F4, but I'm sure I have a bad transistor on one of my pop boards.

No my game is blowing F11 for the main pf lower left pop. F4 should be coil voltage for the whole game. Have you done the ground mods?

#12 4 years ago

F4 is the fuse for all the solenoids, including the pops. The pops are locking on when I start a game and blowing F4, when I unplug the pbdbs, the game plays fine and the fuse doesn't blow. Also, I had to stop working on it tonight due to unfortunate circumstances.... Anyone have a spare playfield glass for a haunted house?

0610172310 (resized).jpg

#13 4 years ago
Quoted from donjagra:

F4 is the fuse for all the solenoids, including the pops. The pops are locking on when I start a game and blowing F4, when I unplug the pbdbs, the game plays fine and the fuse doesn't blow. Also, I had to stop working on it tonight due to unfortunate circumstances.... Anyone have a spare playfield glass for a haunted house?

Ouch! That's a big glass too! It's odd that a PBDB is taking out the main fuse, I thought each pop has their own fuse? Is it possible that somebody over fused the pops? I would double check the fuse values. Do all the pops lock on at start up? If all pops are locking at once, I guess it is possible to pull enough current to blow F4.

#14 4 years ago

System 80s are an adventure. Blownfuse would have been able to tell us. RIP brother.

#15 4 years ago

I still haven't decided what grounding mods the game really needs. I am super thankful I only broke the playfield glass instead of the backglass, that would be a heartbreaker.

#16 4 years ago
Quoted from donjagra:

I still haven't decided what grounding mods the game really needs. I am super thankful I only broke the playfield glass instead of the backglass, that would be a heartbreaker.

Yeah that's true, very hard backglass to find. The ground mods are easy to do. Atleast do the jumpers from the power supply, MPU and driver board to the frame of the power supply board. Also change the orange cap in the cabinet if you suspect it's original.

#18 4 years ago
Quoted from donjagra:

F4 is the fuse for all the solenoids, including the pops. The pops are locking on when I start a game and blowing F4, when I unplug the pbdbs, the game plays fine and the fuse doesn't blow. Also, I had to stop working on it tonight due to unfortunate circumstances.... Anyone have a spare playfield glass for a haunted house?

Since it sounds like you have a different issue, you should probably start your own thread on it. The troubleshooting suggestions for Lovef2k's game will probably be different than the ones for yours.

As for replacement playfield glass, try finding a local glass shop that can cut new glass for you. It should be about $45 or so. You might have to shop around a bit to find that price, since some glass shops will outsource it, which will probably double or triple that price.

#19 4 years ago
Quoted from Lovef2k:

Yes the main pf lower pop blows very consistently. F-11 under the pf. It's been a while but I think I did swap the PBDB around and the same fuse blew again. Then again, I also have F-8 blowing so I could have 2 bad boards.

Take a look at the pop bumper boards and see if they might need to be updated:

http://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Gottlieb_System_80#Updating_the_Pop_Bumper_Driver_Board

#20 4 years ago

Yeah I was just looking at that site. The game is at a friend's house so I can't look right now. I'll report back once I can get at the game.

#21 4 years ago
Quoted from ForceFlow:

Since it sounds like you have a different issue, you should probably start your own thread on it. The troubleshooting suggestions for Lovef2k's game will probably be different than the ones for yours.

I wasn't looking for advice on my issue, I was just explaining why I had spent the day reading about system 80 pop bumpers and sharing the link.

We both are suffering from suspect pbpd boards.

Rottendog makes a replacement pop board, it might be worth the $25 to replace the bad one.

#22 4 years ago

I was able to verify that the coil is wired correctly via the schematic. I was also able to verify that the PBDB's are the non-modified versions. I'm still confused about why the repro driver board activates the pop bumper when the left flipper is activated.

#23 4 years ago
Quoted from Lovef2k:

I was also able to verify that the PBDB's are the non-modified versions.

I'd try modifying one and see what happens.

Quoted from Lovef2k:

I'm still confused about why the repro driver board activates the pop bumper when the left flipper is activated.

A diode issue, maybe?

#24 4 years ago

Try disconnecting the spoon switch and see if it still activates. It could be the leaf is too tight and activating the bumper. If it still activates with the spoon disconnected, then we know there is a short or diode issue.

#25 4 years ago

I replaced the diode on the coil with a new 1N4004. That was the first thing I thought of that might cause the fuse to blow, no dice. the leave switch looks fine, as does the scoring switch. Could it be a bad diode on the flipper coil causing the repro board to activate the pop bumper, it does it on every hit.

Ordered parts from GPE to modify the drivers. Also ordered new transistors Q1 from ebay. Also has anyone ever needed to change the fuse clips out? Maybe they have tarnish build up of overheated plating?

#26 4 years ago
Quoted from Lovef2k:

Also ordered new transistors Q1 from ebay

Careful about those can style transistors...there's fakes floating around.

There's info on pinwiki about replacing the can style with a TIP style.

#27 4 years ago
Quoted from Lovef2k:

Also has anyone ever needed to change the fuse clips out? Maybe they have tarnish build up of overheated plating?

Unless they were obviously broken or bent, I haven't needed to replace them. Gottlieb generally used better quality parts in their games.

#28 4 years ago
Quoted from ForceFlow:

Careful about those can style transistors...there's fakes floating around.
There's info on pinwiki about replacing the can style with a TIP style.

I saw the TIP-102 thing on Pinwiki. I found these made by Motorola and US seller so I thought I was in the clear as far as fakes, any way to tell? They will delivered tomorrow.

ebay.com link: itm

#29 4 years ago
Quoted from Lovef2k:

I saw the TIP-102 thing on Pinwiki. I found these made by Motorola and US seller so I thought I was in the clear as far as fakes, any way to tell? They will delivered tomorrow.
ebay.com link

G-P-E knows how to spot fakes. I'm not familiar enough with the part markings to tell.

You don't know if that US seller bought them from a foreign seller and is just relisting them. Or, if the photo is a stock photo of a real one, and what you receive might not match the photo.

That's not to say that the seller is dishonest...it's just that whenever you have an obsolete part that's hard to find, there's going to be fake parts floating around to fill the demand.

They could very well be real NOS parts...who knows. The photo looks ok to me, but like I said, I'm not too familiar with being able to spot fakes.

#30 4 years ago

If the coils are firing, then the transistor doesn't need replacing. The pop and the flipper shouldn't be connected unless there is a short or a ground wire that isn't connected quite right. If it is a diode, it will be on the flipper.

#31 4 years ago
Quoted from donjagra:

If the coils are firing, then the transistor doesn't need replacing. The pop and the flipper shouldn't be connected unless there is a short or a ground wire that isn't connected quite right. If it is a diode, it will be on the flipper.

It only happens with the repro board, it must be faulty or poor design?

#32 4 years ago

Could be. My issue turned out to be poor connections. My pop boards were already updated.

#33 4 years ago
Quoted from ForceFlow:

Careful about those can style transistors...there's fakes floating around.
There's info on pinwiki about replacing the can style with a TIP style.

Yep, looks like these are fake. I read Terry's page on fakes and he explained that the Motorola ceased production in July of 2000, so any date marked later than that are fake. It looks like mine have had the date code removed evident by hairline scuffs, possible from fine sand paper. He explained that the counterfeiters are getting smart, so this guy must have removed the date code. Also the mounting plate is stamped with numbers and letters by the ears, CJ on one end and 927 on the other. Don't know what that means. Tough lesson learned!

Is there a suitable replacement in the T0-3 case?

#35 4 years ago
Quoted from Lovef2k:

I saw the TIP-102 thing on Pinwiki. I found these made by Motorola and US seller so I thought I was in the clear as far as fakes, any way to tell? They will delivered tomorrow.
ebay.com link

If the transistor really looks like the one in the photo - I wouldn't touch those with a 10 foot pole!
Top has been blatantly sanded off and remarked with just the Moto logo and part number. Russian roulette type part - might be real part, might be something that just happens to be the correct package.

#36 4 years ago

FWIW, i had a blown transistor on a pop bumper driver board and replaced it with a TIP102. It works fine. I also did the other pop bumpers driver board mods Clay recommends in the system 80 guide at the same time. Works no differently than any of the other pop bumpers on my Black Hole (which all have been modded the same way except i left the TO-3 transistors in since they are still good).

#38 4 years ago

Careful with Aliexpress, they're as bad as ebay for fakes. Checked that link. Two photos of transistors came up. First one looks legit with the date codes matching the logos. 2nd one was obvious counterfeits. Motorola logos with 0232 date codes... supposedly made 2 years after Moto spun these parts off to On-Semiconductor.

#39 4 years ago

can they be tested with a dmm to know if there fake

#40 4 years ago

Not really. They often remark parts that are "kind of" similar. They'll usually test good... not the right part but will test good.

#41 4 years ago

I went to my friend's house today and pulled the PBDB's from the game. It turns out that 2 of them were updated and 2 not. The one that's driving the pop that keeps blowing the fuse had an unmodified board.
This is what I found today,F11 for the main pf lower pop blows very frequently, this is driver A84, usually after the game is on for 10 or so minutes. That one has the unmodified board. That pop is on the 38V circuit. Then F-13 blows, not as quickly, for the lower pf pop (A83), also had a unmodified driver driver, 24V circuit. But with the new repro driver connected to A84, the fuse still blows and has the weird flipper issue. See pic, does anyone have one of these in their game? These drivers sell for around $20 so I figure they are cheaply made. So I'm not sure if modifying the drivers will fix my issue.

P6180030 (resized).JPG

#42 4 years ago

I wrote to the mfr of the board and explained the problem, will post what they say.

#43 4 years ago
Quoted from Lovef2k:

So I'm not sure if modifying the drivers will fix my issue.

I'd try it. The repro board has various extras on it (such as the LED indicators and test fire switch), and I'm not sure what impact (if any) those would have.

Although, I'm not even sure what problem(s) the updates are supposed to correct. I have not been able to lay eyes on the original service bulletin that detailed the update.

Either way, I always prefer working with original boards. You never know if a design issue of a repro board is the root cause, and you could end up chasing your tail for a while before you finally determine that.

If updating the board doesn't work, then you could probably eliminate the pop bumper driver boards as the cause of the issue and start looking elsewhere. I like to try to eliminate any known potential problems first, to help rule things out and cut down on the guesswork.

It could be a wire shorting with something else. Make sure to check for any pinched or damaged insulation, and check the movement of mechanisms to see if wiring gets pushed, or if a metal part makes contact with something it isn't supposed to, like a lamp socket.

#44 4 years ago
Quoted from ForceFlow:

I'd try it. The repro board has various extras on it (such as the LED indicators and test fire switch), and I'm not sure what impact (if any) those would have.
Although, I'm not even sure what problem(s) the updates are supposed to correct. I have not been able to lay eyes on the original service bulletin that detailed the update.
Either way, I always prefer working with original boards. You never know if a design issue of a repro board is the root cause, and you could end up chasing your tail for a while before you finally determine that.
If updating the board doesn't work, then you could probably eliminate the pop bumper driver boards as the cause of the issue and start looking elsewhere. It could be a wire shorting with something else. Make sure to check for any pinched or damaged insulation, and check the movement of mechanisms to see if wiring gets pushed, or if a metal part makes contact with something it isn't supposed to, like a lamp socket.

Parts on the way for the mods. It won't hurt to do them and not expensive either. The 2 other drivers that are modified are date stamped 9/83. The game has been HUO since 89 so it must have had issues early in it's life to receive at least 2 modified boards. The bad thing is that the game wasn't looked after the entire time it was HUO, same ball, same rubbers etc. PF has ball swirls and wear. If the mods don't fix the issue, I will follow your advice and also start looking at the connectors in between the drivers and the backbox. The ground wires from all 4 drivers come to 1 plug connector that goes to the ground bus, so there may be a problem there.

As far as to why the mod was done is a mystery but it does involve reversing the polarity of C1 so maybe the board design was wrong from the beginning.

#45 4 years ago

I found the power distribution schematic online and printed it. I wanted to see what the 2 large caps in the cab do. I can only find C1 6800 MFD for the 12V circuit. The manual shows a 4800 MFD but I can't find it on this schematic.

#46 4 years ago
Quoted from Lovef2k:

I found the power distribution schematic online and printed it. I wanted to see what the 2 large caps in the cab do. I can only find C1 6800 MFD for the 12V circuit. The manual shows a 4800 MFD but I can't find it on this schematic.

the 4800uF cap is on the 38v circuit for solenoid voltage.

pasted_image (resized).png

#47 4 years ago

Where did you get that schematic? The one I found is from the sys 80 service manual page 36. PDF file on Google. It only has a 24V circuit with a single rectifier and no C2. No 38V. I did change C2 from the begining with a 12000 mdf as per pinwiki. Is the 38V specific to HH and BH?

#48 4 years ago
Quoted from Lovef2k:

Where did you get that schematic?

From the HH manual.

HH and BH are a bit different than most of the other system 80 games. If you don't have the HH manual, it would be a good idea to get it.

#50 4 years ago
Quoted from ForceFlow:

From the HH manual.
HH and BH are a bit different than most of the other system 80 games. If you don't have the HH manual, it would be a good idea to get it.

Thanks, I have the manual. I just overlooked that page.

There are 51 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 2.

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