For me the only investments are stocks. Pinball is a toy. I'm in the camp of owners who would be happy to see more POTC produced because then it would mean the possibility of game specific spare parts becoming available if ever needed. I think there are a lot of owners in the forums who have expressed that same thought. People who recently bought games at sky high prices might think differently.

But I'd guess a very large majority of current owners purchased at a price lower than what JJP would likely sell a new version for (if that unlikely event happened) and so really wouldn't be concerned about any impact to resale. And anyone concerned about locking in a value probably would have sold it by now anyway.

I hear you, but like JJP said about 6 weeks ago when asked about building more wide body’s... “who knows what the future will bring”

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Absolutely could happen. I'm sure it's not a 0% chance. But I'd take what they said about cost involved with the factory setup as a better indicator of the likelihood than one of their social media posts. This post from 3 months ago showing JJP social media hinting that POTC code would be the following week tells me the JJP social media stuff might not be super reliable:

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/hate-to-say-it-but-wheresthecode-jjp-potc/page/8#post-6562743

Pretty much a statement made only by non POTC owners who spend time reading a "Where's the Code" thread for a game they don't have.

I'm an owner of an SE and I'm not at all concerned if they remake the game. New games will be more expensive than the original run, and a rising tide raises all ships.

ECLE Woz games actually increased value when later games (some w/ reduced features) were sold at a higher price. Ongoing production hasn't lowered the value of the original run.

It is quite obviously the owner's fault that they haven't convinced JJP to release a software update yet.

I talked to an insider at JJP before Gnr was announced at that time he was before there was 0% chance of Potc being re-run, When the prices started skyrocketing, It was being talked about at the company and he said maybe a 20/30% chance now. With all the games in the pipeline and the expensive cost of making Potc I don't see it happening anytime soon.

I wouldn't put stock into anything JJP says. Anywhere. Ever.

Jeff

There have been a steady supply of second hand POTCs available in the $17-20k range. They aren't exactly flying off the shelf, even with mods. Pirates seems to still be regarded as some uber expensive game, but in reality lots of other games are closing the gap over the last year or so. All of JJPs past games except maybe DI trade well over $10k now, with even GnR CEs matching POTC LE pricing. Many Stern Premiums are in the teens somewhere now too, with some games like GB exceeding POTC LE prices. Alien? TBL? The iron has gone cold, imo.

Hmmmm I heard from JJP people that Joe worked on revising the latest Wonka code on primarily on his own time - late evenings and weekends. This was primarily so that the average player could get beyond the 2-3 golden tickets that most of us were stuck at. I beta tested his code version prior to the general public revision release and it was way too easy for me. I finished a game by the 5th game and was going to have to change settings to make it harder. I'm just a mediocre player (IFPA rank #3000+). A few people agreed with me and Joe backed off a few of the easier settings a bit. I think the Wonka difficulty is set pretty darn good for my level of play at this point. Joe mostly interacted with beta testers on nights and weekends for that particular update. I would say it was "for the love of his game" that he wanted more people to enjoy and have more fun with Wonka. The people that can complete Wonka now know how to go into settings and make it harder for their challenge needs.

The pirates update is more than just a final wizard mode. They did a lot of tweaks and re-tweaks to character traits. Those are pretty good in the latest beta. I'm not going to try to defend the time it is taking to complete the final wizard, but Keith's code updates are typically super awesome. I'm waiting patiently and hope that it will be completed soon. That being said, I will probably never reach the final Pirates wizard mode, so the current beta code is pretty darn good for me. Just my opinion.

At MGC Jack pretty much said that they aren't going to charge super-inflated rates for pins. I could see $15k, but not $25k direct from JJP. Flippers, yes.

That's great for Wonka owners that that much effort was made to update the code to improve their game. I don't know the details of Joe's employment so I have no idea if nights & weekends means truly doing it for free because he's an hourly employee or if he's salaried which, right or wrong, usually means overtime is going to be part of the job to finish things that need to get done. That's not said to try to diminish the effort. I know what it's like, because I've worked TONS of nights & weekends overtime as a salaried employee for a lot of years now. But I would never have said I did any of that work "on my own time", because it was part of my salaried responsibilities. Again, I don't know the details and I certainly respect the care and effort you described on that Wonka update to make that game better. I just wish someone at JJP would have been putting a little of the same care and effort into POTC at some point during the past 3 years to get an update out for it regardless of whether or not that update included the final wizard mode.

My advice would be to sign up for the JJP beta group that's on Telegram. There's a link in that group so you can download the beta code. That's what I did, and that's probably the closest you'll ever get to the final code (at least for quite a while is my guess). I just got a bit tired of the constant "soon" comment made by JJP over the last couple of months and that was just one "soon" too many for me, so I signed up for the JJP beta group. Got beta build 2 installed on my POTC for a couple of weeks now.

Official release? The waiting has been brutal.

The Wonka update was not a part of his salaried responsibilities.

And this is why all Wonka owners should hug Joe and/or buy him a beer every time you see him.

A labor of love from a guy truly passionate about his work.

So.... Hate to keep reviving this but holy hell JJP... This has to be the longest "beta" I've ever seen...

Jeff

Aren’t there only a 1000 total JJPPOTC in the universe? That must have been a total financial disaster, so much development effort for 1000 games.

How does a manager at JJP justify allocating super expensive software engineers to a commercial flop like that just for updates (and yes, I think the game is awesome but wow, can you imagine being attached to a product flop like POTC. At my employer that’s the career kiss of death).

I say: revive away.

Still it would be nice to see something emerging

JJP should've accepted my offer to work for them, you'd have stella code updates all the time. It really isn't that hard to code a pinball machine once you figure out all the code mumbo jumbo.

It's so easy, Robert had his accountants do it at deeproot!

It really isn't hard to perform brain surgery once you figure out all the brain surgery mumbo jumbo

As someone who develops software for a living, I always roll my eyes when "XXX should be easy" gets bandied about.

Code is an art form.

SlamTilt is an experienced pinball coder. The one person at Heighway I would hire without question. Alien is largely good because of him.

I hate to keep reviving this but it's so unbelievably frustrating the "new" code has been in beta for year(s?) now... FFS JJP...

Jeff

I'll admit I did initially laugh but to be honest, after the laugh my immediate thought was "that's some BS". You're essentially saying it's okay for JJP to leave a game unfinished. It's not okay for any manufacturer to do that. I get that it happens and they do it anyhow but what a complete "F-YOU" to your customers.

Oh well, I hear you 100% and while I'll never say I won't own another JJP, I can say I'm monumentally disappointed in them as a company.

Jeff

I understand. But remember it goes both ways, too. Customers (and in particular the Pinside brigade) organized a "run on the bank" and pulled back their deposits, which killed the run on this excellent game...without playing it.

That was a complete F-YOU to the people who worked on the game. It's hard to blame them for not making work on it a priority.

Buy something else?

There is still 1,000 people out there invested in this game and the code being complete. I don’t consider that a small number. What is strange is months and months ago they said it was days away then crickets.. what happened? They wouldn’t have released the beta for testing if nothing was coming behind it.

I have faith

Options:

1. Play it as is and enjoy it
2. Sell it for a profit
3. Wait and see if code happens. If not, see #1 and #2.

Whining and crying doesn't change anything.

I'm firmly on 1 & 3... I had someone reach out to me to see if I'd be willing to sell my CE and I said the price for that is $100K cash on glass. Of course no one is going to ever pay me that much money for that but it's indicative of the "bolted to floor" mentality my family has for the game. That's why leaving it unfinished is a bummer...

But... I'm the type of consumer that will vote with my wallet and after seeing a wide number of things I don't like how JJP has handled, I'm reacting accordingly which is all anyone really can do.

Jeff

I understand where you're coming from. I do think, eventually, code will happen.

It's not a huge priority to me personally for a few reasons:

- I have zero hope of making it to the wizard mode anyway, as I'm a trash player
- I've played sooooo much Pirates across 3 copies of the machine owned that I've kinda had my fill, at least for a while.

I find in our house we tend to play Wonka + Newest. We play pretty deeply into the games and practice ad nauseum to try and progress, which doesn't leave much time for more than that.

At one point I had five JJPs and realized I just don't play more than 2 at a time.

Lemme get this straight. About 1,000 people bought POTC, but a lot of people that you think should have bought POTC didn't buy POTC after the design changes. So that makes JJP unhappy and they are therefore justified in shorting the 1,000 people who bought it by not finishing the code on it? So JJP should take out their disappointment in sales on the 1,000 people who bought it? Makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

A business designs a product. Customers either like the product and buy it or they decide they don't like it enough to buy it. If a business has such thin skin that they think of anyone deciding not to buy as some personal F-You then they should not be in business. Period.

JJP is absolutely a business building products for customers. It's not a "hobby" for JJP and it's not some charity that people should feel the need to support no matter what. Your Pinside Brigade has no position in the deal. It's a business transaction between JJP and the POTC buyers and JJP flat out has not delivered.

If there's an "it goes both ways" statement to be made here, it's that 1,000 people bought POTC and JJP said the game would be feature complete when it first shipped. It wasn't feature complete when it first shipped. Buyers held up their end of the transaction. It's way beyond time for JJP to reciprocate by finally delivering complete code.

Does JJP only have an obligation to finish code on machines it thinks they've sold enough of? Again, makes no sense at all for any business to have that type of attitude toward its products and customers. If they do then they won't be in business for long.

And my opinion is that this Pinside Brigade thing is just a rationalization to make an excuse on JJP's behalf. There have been a lot of reasons people like to try to make for JJP not delivering POTC code. But ultimately the facts support that JJP really hasn't been able to push code forward on multiple games at the same time. For whatever reason, it's a shortcoming of the company. POTC has clearly been pushed down the priority list for code development and I'm guessing it's not because JJP has hurt feelings about the Pinside Brigade. It's because they're a business and their priorities have continually shifted to working on their next product instead of POTC. If anyone at JJP is slow walking the code because of hurt feelings, then F them.

People can try to make all the excuses for JJP's bad business practices they want, whether it's POTC unfinished code or a whole slew of playfield chipping issues on games but bottom line is JJP is making business decisions while those trying to make excuses for them are pretending they're supporting a hobbyist.

You seem to not like people who criticize JJP, and that's fine. You don't have to like the criticism and if you have an issue with a JJP game and choose to not care about the issue because you don't want JJP to incur a cost to fix it then that's your prerogative. But you feeling that way doesn't mean everyone else has to feel the same. And it's pretty wrong to dismiss the feelings of others about it and say people are whining and crying about it as though your opinion about it is the correct one.

Bottom line is this isn't an anti-JJP issue and it's not an anti-POTC issue. If any pinball company didn't finish code on a game for over 3 years they'd be rightly criticized for it, and they'd have earned that criticism.

Criticisms are fine. There is plenty of bitching about the TS4 price hike for example and you don't see me justifying it.

You're right, of course. I apologize. I guess I just get sick of the dead horse being beaten over and over.

POTC owners deserve to have the same completed code game experience as owners of WOZ, Hobbit, DI, Wonka, GNR, and Toy Story 4

I also like a good mix of near/medium/far/once-in-a-lifetime goals. It is what keeps us hammering on Wonka every single day.

Depth of code is a big selling point for me. If it's easily repeatable to get to the end then it probably won't last as long in my basement.

The whole "why do people care since most probably won't get to it anyway" is to me probably the most aggravating excuse people try to make for JJP's lack of completing the code on POTC.

It shouldn't matter even a little bit. They sold the game pitching a certain code design and rule set with a map laying it all out. They owe it to the POTC owners to make good on what they said they were setting out to do.

JJP only has themselves to blame for the horse continuing to get beaten. Their attitude toward this game and their apparent non-concern about prioritizing an update for the bug fixes, code improvements, and the final wizard mode is what causes it to be brought up periodically over the course of three years. The statement on stream by the designer saying there won't be any POTC code update until the wizard mode is complete along with JJP pretty much going radio silent in the POTC forums here has been a HUGE f**k you to the POTC owners.

They've even had a beta out for I don't know how long now, and they don't seem concerned about delivering that while other stuff is worked on. I'm sure there are and will be people who will continue to say JJP cares about getting POTC code done and they won't leave the game unfinished, but the ship has sailed on relying on whatever their reputations may be. After three years of nothing positive about the game coming from anyone at JJP, actions speak louder than words. JJP has done a whole bunch to dig their own hole on this.

My intuition tells me that the code will be presented with then the announcement that this game will be reproduced. If JJP had wanted to release a low-end code it would have already been done. If the final assistant mode is a success and if it is reproduced then JJP will be able to sell a new series without problem. It would be a nice revenge for this game (and for JJP) and there will be spares available which would be good for all of us.

This has been covered so much it's comical it keeps coming up... There will NEVER be another POTC produced by JJP. Period.

Jeff

ESPECIALLY if those POTC owners also happen to be loyal JJP customers who also own WOZ, Hobbit, Wonka, and GNR.