Correct, the bug I reported happens on the current version 0.99. Same 0.99 version as everyone can download on JJP website.

Ok thanks, with all the talk of new code I (wrongly) assumed that's what you were on.

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Word. I don’t have as much time as I’d like to play right now, and suggest things or do bug diving, but I really like it that the team gives these little insights into their process and how the games are developed; the thinking behind certain choices.

Plus nobody on there is an asshole which helps

The only requirement is Telegram and that isn't going to change.

Posting bug reports on pinside, even for non-beta releases, isn't the best way to tell us either. We don't spend all day on pinside and we easily miss things on here.

Then wait until it is a final release

The person who has the machine (not me) simply does not want to sign up to Telegram.

This is a person who has designed and built his own machine and is in regular contact with people from 2 other companies discussing their games and often asked for his thoughts, just thought that it would have been a nice surprise if I could have turned up this evening with the code downloaded on to a memory stick ready to go.

I agree that Pinside is not the answer for reporting issues. Bug reports could be sent direct to an email (same as Stern).

Telegram is only required for the beta code. If you have a bug to report, you can submit it on the JJP website. They have a contact form and a place you can specifically request support

So... Did this just disappear and isn't going to be released? I mean how long do you have to beta test code before you put it out?

Jeff

It’s been out for more than a year now, it sounds like there may be a few more updates even yet. Plus no final wizard mode yet.

Is it not "if on character select screen AND shooter lane switch close THEN no flippers"? Just curious as a developer and geek. But yes, an option for home users would be nice. It does get annoying game after game, especially when you suck and start many games

Seriously JJP... HOW LONG DO YOU NEED TO BETA TEST THIS CODE??? I mean come on... What's the freaking hold up here? There's absolutely zero excuse for this BS.

Jeff

Jeff, why don't you join the beta group on Telegram? It involves downloading the app and sending one email, which will take you about 9 seconds. The link to the beta is in the channel.

And yet people think these used POTC machines are worth 15- 20k. Personally, I wouldn't offer more than 7500 bucks for a used LE JJP Pirates at this point. That offer isn't going up as the years go on either.

Even if they actually got around to completing the game, the hype has died. The new shiny objects that have unfinished code and stupid price tags are here. And we're all suckers for buying them unfinished with the hope that one day, many years from now, they might get around to it. Maybe.

This doesn't get called out enough. The lack of software support from all the manufacturers is astonishing.

I had to pipe up. Apologies. I'll go back to the lurking area now.

Because I don't want to and that has nothing to do with this conversation anyhow. The code has been unfinished for literally years. JJP is a joke.

Jeff

I don't disagree, well except for the value part...

Jeff

Lol, oh I'm sure they'd have a loooooong list of excuses for this BS. But the bottom line remains the same as it's been for over 2-1/2 years now though. Their crappy statements of "no update until the final wizard mode" for a game that JJP stated would be feature complete at shipping (over 3 years ago!!!!) has said all we need to know about how they view this game and how much they care about the customers who bought it.

I hope they all get coal in their stockings, along with a speaker that has eternal battery life and which can't be removed from their houses and only plays the sound of nails on chalkboard at about 120db

This is the only part of your post that I'd disagree with from my experience. I've been really happy with the code progression on the Sterns I've bought in the 3 years since getting POTC. And that includes AIQ and now GZ, which were both released in the middle of the pandemic and are from a company that's releasing 3 to 4 new titles per year vs. 1 from JJP every 18 months. AIQ code came along great and GZ just had a really great update - all during the pandemic.

JJP can't seem to handle making progress on code for more than one game at a time. And their statements of "no POTC code update until the wizard mode is done" pretty well sum up their piss poor attitude toward delivering what they owe to POTC customers for the past 2.5+ years.

People can debate which games have better/more fun code vs other games but that's a different topic and it has a fair amount to do with personal preference. But as for the topic of delivering the game code that is owed to the customer, from my experience Stern has delivered quite well on their games and I have no reason to doubt GZ will continue to get good updates until it's completed and that it will probably be less than a year until it's completed.

And I think that unless JJP gets off their asses and decides to bump up POTC code just a bit on their project priority list then GZ will be yet another Stern I've purchased since POTC which will have finished the full development progress before POTC is feature complete.

I admit it, I LOL'd

Stern is better at getting around to it at some point but not calling them out for the same problems is pretty forgiving. They ship unfinished games, too. I've had more than a few that were pretty wonky when you dug into them.

Just as a side note to this, I think this all stems from the blending of two worlds. In the past manufacturers just had to make a shiny object that would eat a quarter or two from a passer by. The code wasnt very polished and didn't need to be. Operators didn't care about code. The only concern was (and kinda still is) is this shiny thing eating quarters or not. So nobody complained.

Now there is this new world of pinball. Home consumers. They expect a complete game. They expect it to be rules deep and have hundreds of hours of content. Rightfully so. They just spent a lot of money on a high end toy.

The manufacturers are still straddling the fence of these two worlds and haven't really stepped up with regard to code and content. Or not remotely stepped it up enough, anyway. Hence the complaints.

I won't tell them how to run a business but I would suggest that fewer titles and MUCH more software support for a MUCH longer period of time of those titles would probably make the pinheads happy.

It's inexcusable that this machine doesn't have its wizard modes. Thats the final word. Inexcusable

There are some exceptions to this - the EHOH game shipped some damn fine code... eventually. It is still missing a few modes which were ... let's say "implied", but it is finished, with an actual wizard mode and everything. And of course no it did not ship with very impressive code. Stern also shipped Munsters with pretty finished code. Has it even seen an update? It's basically Monster Bash deep, but it's technically done. Coding these more advanced games is WAY more difficult than it would seem at first - I suspect Stern made a lot of effort early on to create a framework which makes the games easier to code, but I have no way to confirm this. Shipping the games with incomplete code is a factor of the expense - they are shipping getting just enough done to justify releasing the games as playable, and are adding more depth as more units are sold. This does also mean that there will eventually be a game which never gets completed...

When Lyman left, the ship basically sailed on getting those last couple of things. With POTC, it's clear that the fiasco with presales getting cancelled had a years-long impact on the game. It's still amazingly fun, but it is a bummer we'll likely never see anything final. I know WOZ still gets occasional updates - but it also sells a LOT of units.

Anyway just my opinion and speculation.

Yep it's true that all companies are shipping with unfinished code. I think the difference in the past vs. now is that with the internet the games can be updated remotely without having to install new chips so it's easier to do and has become standard practice to ship with some amount of development to be completed.

I'm willing to accept that as the business model in order to get my hands on a game earlier vs. waiting to buy until code is completely final, and I'm taking on risk there in that the code might ultimately not turn out to be as fun as I thought it would be.

But there shouldn't be any risk in whether or not the main features indicated by the inserts or promotional material ever get delivered. My thought is that this model creates an obligation on the part of the manufacturer to deliver a feature complete game within a reasonable time. We can all have different views of what's reasonable, but I think when it gets beyond 2 years it's certainly become unreasonable.

Also, one big difference on POTC is that JJP said POTC would be feature complete at initial shipping. They didn't deliver on that and now it's 3 years later and they still haven't done it. I don't think Stern makes that similar statement for their games, but they've reliably completed code on most of their games, and on the ones that took longer I think they still got done within a couple years.

So again, yes, all manufacturers are shipping with incomplete code so it's a personal preference on waiting to buy until it's complete or buying early. But like you said it's inexcusable for all features to not be delivered 3 years later.

EHOH is what's in my living room right now. It needs code attention. There are still clear placeholder events popping up during play.

I like the game. But at 9.5k I admit I expect it to get fixed at some point and I feel probably the same as you POTC owners do. I overpaid for it & I'm mildly salty it's unfinished and not likely to ever get fixed.

Inexcusable.

It’ll be released when it’s ready. That’s all there is to it. (shrug)

Yeah Lyman leaving Stern probably doomed Elvira.

And the 3 year old bug for oi mania in ACDC that doesn't allow you to start the mode. (Unfinished)

Yeah that sucks. But at least everything else is THERE. You can tell Lyman had big plans for Elvira that probably will never be realized.

OTOH they did just release an update for Munsters which I never thought would happen in a million years

Got to laugh. I owned EHOH right from initial release thru its last major code update. For a while it seemed like a significant code drop was happining from Lyman every month. It was fantastic to watch. After the last code drop I kept it a while but decided it was not for me. For some to think EHOH is not finished considering how much is in it, has to be a matter of perspective I guess.

I owned Pirates right from initial release till this past fall. I always felt if it had the same level of assets that Hobbit ended up with it could be the GOAT. As it was tho, code wise , it was pretty deep. A lot to do, great shots. I hope it gets the final wizard mode and a little polish for the present owners.

I kept Munsters. Sold the big "code Monsters" (BM66, EHOH,Hobbit, Pirates) and its last code drop was nothing compared to the code monster drops from the past, but man is it appreciated. .

Merry Christmas!

You bought a pinball at its launch that was more an idea than game. Then watched its development for a few years after buying it.

If this is OK then I submit you have a pretty low bar of expectation.

Video game companies do this a lot, and often get away with it, but the cost to buy a video game in development is usually 20 bucks. We're talking about machines with 8 to 10k price tags that are essentially abandoned with bugs and missing features.

There is room for all the manufacturers to improve in this area. A lot of room. Apathy won't encourage them to change, that's for sure.

I downloaded and installed telegram and sent an email with my telegram name and email address to [email protected]. Have heard nothing. Is there something else I need to do to join the beta testing?

No. I’d just send a follow up email. They will add you to the group.

Honestly at this point I don't think this beta code will ever make it to release. I do thank those who have privately offered me a copy but I'll decline as I don't want to create any issues for anyone. Just so disappointing from JJP to still be in this position... Then again, that's the JJP motto these days "we'll over charge, under deliver, and modify our warranty to cover our ass"...

Yeah, I'm just a bit pessimistic right now...

Jeff

Was coming to the news regarding the beta. Cheers

You forget 1 thing beta is based on testing and approval . If JJP finishes the wizard mode and all beta tester give them a oké on the go and Disney is saying nah we don’t like the wizard mode there is not much JJP can do it’s then back to the drawing boards etc. The new beta is really improved with the new settings and scorebit. So better to wait it out or just sell your potc and move on in life. Complaining does not hurry things up…I know life is not fair

SOON GUYS... SOON! JJP doesn't lie. #gottapostadisclaimer #peoplebepissed #sorryfortheirsocialmediamanager

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Is additional approval required from Disney for software updates? I'm just wondering if that could be part of the reason there haven't been any official updates for so long.

Who knows? People seem to like trying to create excuses for JJP not delivering code on this game by speculating that it might be due to licensing, but the only people who really know why it hasn't happened are the people at JJP. I think it's pretty reasonable to assume that there are very important variations in the details and terms of licenses from one game to another, so to try to attribute the delay in POTC code to licensing without being familiar with the terms of that particular license seems kind of pointless to me.

I tend to subscribe to Occam's Razor. And with it being 3+ years since the release of the game and coming up on 3 years since the last code update, what's the likelihood that licensing has been the biggest reason for how long this is taking? I don't think that's very likely.

I'm thinking it's not likely that a licensor is the cause for this long of a delay and it seems much more likely that JJP bumped POTC code to the bottom of the priority list for Wonka development, then again for GnR development and, who knows, maybe there's now another game in development that's bumping POTC code down the priority list again. JJP doesn't seem to be able to develop code for multiple games at the same time. I'd say that after 3 years waiting that seems much more likely to be the issue than licensing.

The have almost absolutely zero reason to finish the code or provide any update or fix to anything. It gains them nothing in terms of direct monetary compensation and is far from any of the most talked about issues with JJP so they certainly aren't losing much consumer confidence from this smaller blip in the grand scheme of complaints against them. Hardly anyone rivals them in terms of market segment and their new games sell well even with ongoing systemic issues.

The only real reason to release new code is to "make it right" at this point.

Or maybe for a new run black pearl edition sooooonnnnn

Maybe but not this year , maybe end of 2023

Yeah, that's the only possibility I can think of. In which case they are likely also going to coincide the release of the code with more marketing efforts.

Not happening. The move from NJ to IL was the end of that conversation as the new facility isn't setup for wide body manufacturing anymore. Unless of course they're going to shrink the game down into a standard body... LOL

Jeff

I think most JJP criticisms are centered on business (support) behavior related to manufacturing. So letting LTG and Butch go makes even less sense. And they shut down POTC manufacturing too soon. All of it is a shame.

Because the game designers and developers at JJP are clearly world-class. When I look at the attention to detail that goes into each JJP game, the talent, time, and teamwork is absolutely special within pinball. The recent revamp of Wonka code demonstrates how deeply they care about their games because it certainly wasn't 'required'. The POTC code update will come soon now, they've said so.... relax.

That sounds..odd. Like, how much of the process could be dependent on machine size and why cut out an entire option for wide body machines? So they aren't making any more WoZ?

It is leadership and decision making which is entirely in question. All of the issues I've experienced and read about come back to how the company is managed and lead from the top down, whomever that is. Choices to continue with Mirco, to handle the playfield issues as they did, to choose to respond to their customer concerns the way they did(nt) and make changes to production without informing existing customers, etc... on multiple games, in multiple ways. This extends to how support is handled and how they have decided to handle the POTC code situation. It's all questionable leadership but in the end people still buy the games, still pay the money, still support the company so the decisions that were made likely made and saved the company more money than they will ever lose from any negative public opinion, which in the grand scheme is probably minor. Doesn't mean we shouldn't keep holding their feet to the fire... "relaxing" is another way to say "let them do what they want" .... that's not how you hold them accountable.

Let's see, that Wonka update was in August and they put more Wonkas on the line within a month or two of that update. They did the same thing with WOZ with an update in March 2019 that was tied to upcoming 2019 builds of that game. They aren't doing it out of the goodness of their heart or for some sentimental reason. They have an interest in working on games to try to attract sales for their upcoming builds, and POTC doesn't fall into that category for them. And, again, they pretty clearly aren't good at making progress on code for more than one game at a time. Hence the almost 3-year span between POTC updates and about 2 years of a beta floating around.

Oh, and let's not forget about the designer and programmer saying no POTC update at all, even for known fixes and issues, until the final wizard mode is done. That statement by them really showed how much they care about their POTC customers.

Bottom line is it just hasn't been and still isn't a priority for them to finish what they promised to their POTC customers because they haven't been building more POTC machines. It is what it is, and I don't understand people trying to make excuses for them or trying to spin this in some way that tries to create a favorable impression of JJP when their attitudes and (lack of) action toward this game has been beyond crappy.

Agreed, I hear this argument all the time that JJP is “not set up to make widebody games anymore”. If they have the ability to make games as complex as WOZ and POTC I’m sure they can figure out a way to modify their assembly line to roll a widebody pin down it.

I hope you don't think I was making excuses with my question about if they needed approvals for software updates. I wasn't defending, it was an honest question. I was hopeful that an update would be out by now and wondering like everyone else about the delays.

Pretty much every post stating they won't make any more POTC because <insert reason here>,
is made by a current POTC owner, who is worried about the effect more games would have on their "investment".

After JJP moved to their new facility it was someone from JJP who said everything in the place is set up to run standard bodies and it would be a large cost to reconfigure it all to run a wide body and switch it all back again to run more standards. It wasn't any Pinsider who pulled that out of thin air.