We've debated if pinball is seeing a resurgance or not. I don't think there's much left to debate - seems like a fact now. Indeed - gotta love it~!

The hobby has grown.

Games on location keeps decreasing.

In another ten years it will be interesting to see what is left.

LTG

That is the bigger issue for sure...

We have this boom in the home front, but as far as the standard venues go (Movie theaters, bars, theme parks, etc...) it is a veritable "ghost town" when it comes to Pinball.
For those rare places like PHOF and the smaller arcades that really do go "all out" for pinball- they are finally seeing some real traffic compared to two years ago.
It gives me hope, but we are still a ways away from pinball permeating itself back into society.
Hopefully Jack and JJP can give pinball that extra bit of "exposure/oomph" it's been missing with WOZ.

I will say, the crowds at the Expo's are getting bigger every year so, it's not too far fetched to see pinball get another renaissance.
Fingers crossed!

I think we're just seeing the last generation of people who grew up playing "in the wild" entering the home market. Those born between the 80s to mid-90s. Unless something changes, my guess would be 10-years of steady growth (maybe even a continued boom) followed by a long steady decline in popularity.

Thinking long term, do you think it could make financial sense for Stern to become it's own operator? Putting machines out on location, taking 50% of the profit, maybe even working out a trade with local technicians or home collectors for service.

I Have wondered this myself from time to time. It would take a lot of manpower, and Gary has probably decided against it as being too risky of a gamble. No use bankrupting a company over it. They utilize temps to build the games, but this wouldn't be feasible for a team of operators you would need to nurture those skills. And would you start small in the chicagoland area? Or go full-boar and across the country? Probably just too big of an undertaking at the moment. But I'm a dreamer, and I like the idea.

As stated, I think that without games available in the wild the market for new games will eventually go into decline. This would be a way to help prevent this. I guess, another option would be to work out a discounted rate or profit share for vendors. I would guess that internally this is one of the reasons for LE games; LE for the home collectors, regular for the vendors.

The biggest problem is that there aren't that many arcades at all anymore, home gaming has really killed the market, so unless these makers want to become an almost home use only market, they will have very few venues to put machines in. The only arcade with pins in my area has totally neglected machines, and I rarely walk in there to even play the arcades because they are in bad shape as well.

I don't have kids, but if I did, and I dragged them into an arcade, I would hope they would play the games, but I think I can hear a little voice of one of the kids I don't have... 'daddy, why did you bring me here? these games are boring and I can't change them to (insert game in the ps3 currently).'

At home I can play my near CQ machine, and my ps3 which doesn't have these issues that arcades have.

Would I love to have PAPA next door? FOR CERTAIN. But I can see the issues. Luckily, in our current re visitations to the arcades, we have seen a resurgance. As my friend says 'all the rich hipsters in software development are all over these pinball machines.' Seems like a total tool thing to say on his part, but he is correct in his own way. *douchebaggy comment deleted*

I just hope the recent increase in popularity isn't just a fad. Even emulated pinball games were threatening to die off about 5 years ago. Maybe we all can keep the game alive for another 50 years.

_{Post edited by Blakesell : sleep deprived douchebaggery}

I try to mention to the managers at some of the venues I go to (pizza places, bars, etc.) that the main reason I patronize them is the fact that they have pinball machines. Those type of places are a dime a dozen, but if they have pins they are 1st on my list.

I don't know if it helps, but it certainly can't hurt.

I was in the Mall of America last weekend. Three arcades and I couldn't fine a single machine to play. Maybe put in some of those stupid ticket redemption things in pinball machines. That seems to be all that kids care about. It's not about the game, it's about winning a prize. Some of the most popular "games" currently in arcades are basically slot machines; press a button, win tickets.

This is very true, but it is one area that pinball should have an advantage over traditional arcade games. Companies might be designing games for for the wrong market. Maybe we need to start seeing machines that would have zero interest to, well...us.

No, if there was money to be made. They'd already be doing it.

Pinball doesn't earn. Only two thing you can do to get it back out in mass. Increase earnings or decrease price of equipment. Neither of which is happening. If anything it is earning less and costing more.

LTG

In home gaming is the market it isn't killing it. People that have collections have families and friends that sometimes enjoy their pins and get the bug. I have already given the pinball bug to a few friends that decided to get pinball machines recently. Now we plan a yearly party where we gather our pins together and play the hell out of them.

For good or worse routing games is quickly becoming a thing of the past. The future of pinball is most likely in the home and many manufactures are finding out that the home buyer will spend a lot more money per machine than an operator. So it could mean less mass production but a lot more going into each machine. I think there is still a future for pinball maybe wishful thinking but I am a glass is half full type of guy I guess.

Short term I agree, but I think that if Stern doesn't start thinking long term pinball will be a declining hobby. I also don't think it has to earn much. If it were to basically break even that would be good enough. The increase in future players might be worth the effort.

...or design games that appeal to the new generation of players.

I would agree with this part of the statement. If this is the case and there is no way to reverse this trend, Stern will have to adapt to the Zombieland Adventure model.

Edit: Sorry, for treating the forum like a chat room. I'll back off. It's just a topic of interest.

problem with machines on route is that they require maintenance, video games do not really require much

I think the real problem is a lock of innovation, combined with a lack of segregating different target audiences. When, I told my wife I wanted a second machine her comment was "why would you want another one, you already have one". To the vast majority of the general public all pinball machines are the same.

Lol! that my biggest problem with the wife too : )

In her defense, you do have High Speed and The Getaway: High Speed II.

That's a lot of it. A lot of maintenance costs for minimal earning potential. Watch "Tilt", they also talk about players have to play serially - even in a 4 player game you still have to rotate through everyone's turn. With video games you can get people playing SIMULTANEOUSLY - that's twice, sometimes 4x as much money being spent in the same amount of time (or less).

I think you're right on. A lot of these games are becoming more customized.

Yes, there is a resurgence. It's just not in the arcades, it's in the home.

I think they already are, in a way. They are going about it a different way. Stern has the advantage of economies of scale, so why not sell as many machines as possible? They are using a tactic referred to as "skimming" - get the people that are willing to pay more to pay first. They do that with the LE's. Then, they lower the price and sell as many machines at the lower price. Even though 4.5K is still expensive, that's wal-mart prices considering what some of these new machines are going for. They've got the facility to support mass-production, so they're going to use it to sell to the operators that are still putting machines on route, and players that don't want to spend the extra 3k.

You honestly think the liquidators in there would be interested in break even ?

And they sure aren't interested in rebuilding the industry as it once was.

LTG

There is always going to be an exception to the rule.

A few places may make money, or claim it.

Not enough to matter for the future of location pinball.

It took many years to run it into the ground. It will take a lot more than one company or one game to turn it around.

LTG

Sorry to be spamming this forum...

I do believe that money can be made off of machines on location when you don't have the cannibalization that occurs when you have machines at every corner store. Example, you put 2 mcdonalds within a block of one another, and there's already a BK, Arby's, etc., you aren't going to see a substantial earning potential. If you're the last one standing out of all of those joints, you can bet you'll see an increase in revenue.

Pinball on route has become a novelty. There are so few games, that these games get played because they're the only show in town.

Still, when compared to the earning POTENTIAL of touchscreen bar games, etc., many operators will still not have much of an interest in maintaining pins.

And that's where the 'hobby OP' steps in. Someone who puts machines on route, but does it for interests sake/love of pinball, and not as a full time job.

My pins are earning just fine, but I'm not deluded to think I could quit my job.

How long do you think you'll do this ?

I'm curious because on Rec Games Pinball through the years occasionally "hobby ops" pop up, and usually within a year or two disappear.

Investment in money and time usually gets them, especially if they have a family.

LTG

Most are pulling in remaining pins and not placing them any more.

LTG

Best case is you are going to end up with a high end collectors market and either Stern or JJ or someone will make runs priced to sell to a custom market. It will be small but 1 or 2 small companies can make enough to run and turn a profit at it. At least Thats sustainable for a few years. A big market...nah. Just too big a box that supports one event for most homes today.
If it was me I would partner with a Chinese factory and get the same licence that Pinball Arcade got and ride that coat tail producing cheaper manufactured re runs of classic games. Conatainer ship the runs, warehouse and direct drop from there to shipping locations or retail Pool Table stores. Sell 6000 units of each run making 2000 in profit and you have quite a little business for 5-7 years.

Until I pay off my (growing) collection? Get bored?

I have a family. I spend an hour a week on my pins, unless there is an major issue. In that case, I rotate a pin in and pull the one out for repair. It is not a full time job.

Honestly, I thought pinheads would be grateful for hobby OPS. I think there would be a lot less pins on location if they were not around. I know in my city, the amount of pins on location if I was not doing this would be ...... 1.

Please don't misunderstand me. I am grateful for what you do.

You are just the first one I could ask your plans.

In the past on RGP they pop up, buy some new pins, post raving reports, and slowly disappear. And you wonder where they went.

LTG

Biggest reason is no money in it. To tool up, get rights, have an assembly line, train people. I couldn't even begin to imagine the cost. AFM sold for about $3600, no way you could do that having to make a company and everything. Unless you off shore it. Then count how many I'm not buying crap from China posts.

And everyone thinks it would be great, and wants one. until it comes to putting down money.

People with a nice AFM or MB, likely won't want another.

I'm sure people have thought about it, and when you come up with the reality of how many you would actually sell, it ends.

LTG

I'm asking this because I've never heard the expression used before, What is a craft arcade?, craft beer?, artisan food, craft or artisan clothing?

I'm guessing, is this something that people create using all their own materials? I'm wondering how a craft arcade differs from arcades of years gone by.

As far as food, you either cook it or you don't. Either a person cooks it, or it's a droid doing the cooking? Is the person cooking it a hippie? That's why it's called artisan? Or it's a hipster doofus cooking the artisan food and brewing the craft beer?

Is this something that's happening in the more artsy craftsy kind of cities? I live near Charlotte NC, which is a pretty big city and I've never heard of craft arcades in this area.

I have heard of people brewing their own beer at home, hell in NC moonshine is a state tradition, although I've never drank any. But I know some people who have...looking right at you BR.

As a hobby operator I'd be worried about offending an for profit operator and having them trash my machine(s). I don't know if it's still this way, but arcade and vending had a history with organized crime because it was an easy way to hide funds.

I'm lucky in that my location is a former casino. There are camera's literally everywhere, and they all work and are recording. You can still bet on the ponies at my location, so I think the camera's are required by law. Plus, I actually know and am friendly with the OPS who run the vids and pool tables there. They are good dudes.

Hey, no worries LTG. I'm grateful for people like you who dedicate much more than an hour a week to pinball!

I know I won't do it forever, but while I'm doing it, I plan to have titles players want and to keep the machines tip top!

Sure sure "craft" or "artisan" anything is a total douche term these days. But I have never heard of a "craft arcade;" and it doesn't sound appealing to me. Only use machines made with local produce and farm fresh foods?

JWS, I worded that badly, I meant machines themselves, not places, like people are making their own games more, in the case of pinball I was talking about Magic Girl or Predator, or arcades.. ok, I haven't seen any of those, there was more talking out my arse than truth in that statement. And I apologise for my total douchebag statement I made there law.

i think VP helped to get a lot of pinball fans back into the mood...
since there are lesser and lesser arcades everyday.
more fans, more companies..

No biggie, just never heard the term used before, that's all. Just wanted to know what it meant.

I didn't consider it a douchebag statement at all, because in this time of social media and people inventing new words and phrases every month I was wanting to know where I was in missing that one. Yesterday I learned what the word "squee" means.

I have seen the Predator pin, like it alot.

haha no whoop. You can't make it 2 feet anymore without hearing those terms.

It did me...+1. Also makes me pine away for a CC

Too funny.

If you run into them types, I wouldn't be worried about my games.

Your games would be the least of your worries.

LTG

Maybe I've just been into Chicago too many times.