That's the key right there. Any game that can last that long in a collection, is one bad ass game. The real question is, will STLE last that long in your collection? So far the longest a STLE has been in someone's collection is a few months.

I think it's great you love the game, but how can you possibly say it's "ground breaking"? Not trying to be argumentative, but you seem like you've been around pinball for awhile and I'm curious.

For the following IMO:

Best Stern ever, so it finally took them 13 years to make a game that could stand quality-wise with W/B, of course that comes at quite a price $7,800. Love the real back glass, rails, speaker cover and total build quality, much better than any other Stern I've seen, almost like they have recently changed some of their production line. I have not had the playfield dimpling that others have experienced yet, but of course it will remain to be seen how the game will stand up longterm in both durability and play. We will see with Mustang, whether or not this build quality will continue.

Best lighting ever, by that I mean both the RGB LED's & integration into the game along with a bright playfield where the ball is easy to see wherever it goes. I see this translating to bringing in new players and higher route earnings. One of my buddies has a couple of pro's on route that are doing WAY better than any of his prior Sterns. My 13 yo daughter who rarely plays my pinball games was also attracted to this game and is not a Star Trek genre fan.

You can complain about some of the cheesy dots, and questionable play field art, but the entire package just works for me, it's a piece of art to a long-time collector who also has a TAFG. (What Stern doesn't have cheesy dots)?

This game has vastly improved my overall pinball skills due to the speed of the game and the actual ability to do well multitasking with the STLE MB modes. I have moved over to my TZ, FH & TAF and put up stout games that i haven't put up in years on them.

Stern nailed the ST theme with this game, sure I am a biased ST fan, but wow it hits the total package mark in sound, look, feel and play....and it's not done yet...I have never been a real big fan of shakers, as I believe they are usually there as a gimmick to compensate for lack of something missing in a package, but it is well integrated in STLE, especially before Klingon MB where it just gives you a very short buzz or two to warn you what is coming.

What else can I say? I am addicted to this game like no other in a long time, what did Nolan Bushnell say way back then... "easy to play, hard to master" that's what i'm feeling with this game. Stern hit a home run, never thought I would say that. This game will definitely get a color DMD (white with blue cover) when I get some extra funds and hope it will get colorized eventually. My guess is this game will be Sterns most prolific in units ever sold and this will be determined by route earnings and not collectors.

No extended lane guides...
If you don't care to much for artefacts (like said before) it's pretty easy...Start Mode as Skill shot makes three modes, so you need 4 shots to "mission start" in three balls to reach final frontier....you don't have to be the greatest player to do this...

STTNG is a much better, more complete, fun, interesting, varied pin than ST is by a long shot. STLE has better lighting with the color changing LEDs and more bling that doesn't do anything for game play. But it looks nice.

I don't dislike STLE but the attitude on this board by many is that newer is always better. There are great modern Sterns but there are many more great pins from B/W. of course, ratings are just someone's opinion.

But looking at the rankings, there's not really much separating the top 20 anyway.

This attitude pretty much ensures new pins will go to the top. No respect for older views on older pins.

I'm curious: exactly what ground was broken with STLE? (Please don't say "the awesome starfield!" ) Layout? no. Display? no. DMD quality? no. Playfield toys? no. Bright LEDs? not groundbreaking. Innovative modes? no. So, although it is an entertaining package for many (still not for me, admittedly) what is new and great in this game?

What is new and innovative about ACDC?

Is the LCD really making WOZ a great game, or is it the rule set and long existing parts that just happen to be put together in a fun package?

Another fine point.

Try playing the game at a 7.0 slope, no extra balls, without posts, double stack your three in a row, kill it in Kobiaysi mode, hit warp 9.9, manage to hit your super jackpot on Kilngon Multiball and still just reach over 200M on the game, and still didn't make it through the L2 of the game. This game is too easy my ass, maybe if you only do L1 modes they are easy but if they weren't no one would play the damn game, lol...

Sorry bud just cannot agree with that statement.

Whats groundbreaking for me about STLE is that it is a hell of alot of fun to play.
As i said I had WOZ (which i know you love and think is groundbreaking) its a beautiful game! but after 400 or so games i just felt that between the lack of satisfying shots and repetitive callouts (my oppinion) it had to go. Im nearly 400 games in on STLE and its going no where!
sometimes gadgets and toys dont add up to fun.

Disclaimer: we all like different stuff... thats not a bad thing

i think it's great that stern machines seem to keep getting better and better!

I said ground breaking for -Stern- already answered in a previous reply...

The song jackpot rule. Very innovative.

Rule set, light show and build quality make WOZ a great game.

I think Sigma plus blue cover will look awesome - not even sure I want it colorized.

I havent own my game for more then a few days. Best game ever? Nope. Top 15 - yeah, top 10- have to wait and see!

Great game so far! Really love the flow. I would like to have a few more "battles" and maybe have something like the TOTO from WOZ where you have to shoot the ship down or the game dies and well you die and lose the ball
Sound/music is also nice but i really miss the new ST theme music, but i guess that can be fixed with browser.

Congrats on your purchase. You won't regret it.

You really don't need to be a trekkie to enjoy the sounds and sights of the machine. I never watch show but love the game. Wife has NEVER watched an episode or movie and really LIKES the game. And she doesn't care for pinball.

The light show is amazing on it. Not just the brightness, but the software programming of the lights. And software is in it's infancy stage! And game is freakin fast. If You have an itch someplace and ball is on top of PF expect to possibly drain!

I can't imagine what Mustang will be like in the LE version from what I have been told. Might turn some initial haters in to lovers of the game??? Hmmmm...this is Pinside so if You don't like the theme(Chevy lovers...LOL) You will still hate it. I'm a Ford guy but still have a love for Chevy...1,8,4,3,6,5,7,2.

Ok, so the rules are incomplete. So we have layout, toys, sound fx and dots. And light show, of course, because that's really a big part of this. The combination of these things - even with incomplete code - is better than all but 10 or 15 games in history? It's ok to believe this, but these are bold statements.

I have no doubt that it's more fun than any machine to many people right now. TZ and STTNG stayed at the top of the IPDB rankings for like 10 years, despite new release after new release. Now, the way a lot of Pinsiders talk - 4 recent machines - Tron, ACDC, MET and ST - are way better. Way better? Or way newer?

I missed the 90's era. Everything up to 2007 really, so most B/W are new to me. I come from a different viewpoint because I haven't "been there and done that" on all these machines for the last 15-20 years. So many excellent games. Stern, B/W and JJP. I think a preoccupation with a games "value" drives these a lot of these threads.

I own 30 pins and have started to sell of half off my collection so I guess I would be stupid to post what I did? These posts DON'T change values. It is always...IMHO.

But I will say that most of the games getting shed by me are Wms./Bly. Others like Avatar LE,FG,Shrek, and Elvis will leave the building but most of the newer Sterns will stay. IJ and TZ are great but most of my friends are not pinheads and have no appreciation for the older games. It will be tough to sell some of the great machines but "it's only pinball".

Hi Paul...I agree enthusiastic comments on gameplay don't change values. From my perspective, bold comments about where a game fits historically are premature…really hard to be objective about the "shiny new toy".

In any event, it's a strong license, great designer, and immediately likable play and appearance. Many of the modern Stern titles are pretty brutal, so designing a game playable by mere-mortals is a nice change of pace.

I'm not a vid guy that gets in to code. Main thing about STLE is code seems easy to understand but a bitch to do!

Negative. Slow, widebody drain machine. Deep modes, but unfortunately not nearly as fun to play as the new ST. No interactive toy in the vein of the Vengeance; horrible, static Borg ship; no continuous Warp Ramp; no color changing LEDs; no laser light show.

Interesting that you think the attitude is that newer is better on Pinside. I mostly see people posting about how Williams is better than anything Stern puts out today. There also seems to be a very defensive, negative reaction from many STTNG owners. They feel the new machine is a threat to the vaulted status of TNG, and seem to pounce on Stern's Star Trek in a reactionary manor.

I'm a little lost.

According to your info page it shows You've never owned STtNG. And You don't own STLE.

Can we assume You've played STLE quite a bit to form this opinion?

I had a HUO STtNG in my gameroom and it rarely got played and had to change the game with a mod because it WAS a drain monster. And still didn't think it was fun.

Key with STLE is fun factor and playability. Anyone can walk up to game and figure out ruleset. The bling when playing is definitely 14K gold!

I own STTNG and, in just over a week, should have a STLE here. They're both great games with quite different strengths. There do seem to be a fair number of people on Pinside who have a strong preference for one type of game or another (especially flow vs. stop-and-go), which is certainly their right. For me, the more diversity the better. I cancelled my original STLE order precisely because I was afraid it was too much like STTNG. I was delighted to learn that, despite the similar layout, they play very differently. I am glad to have so many excellent pins available.

Don't know why you're bringing in ACDC and WOZ references here. Someone posted that STLE was "ground breaking" and I don't see it. Apparently some people think a pin with reasonable quality components (coated siderails, real backglass, fancy speaker covers--and you should expect this stuff at a list price of $8k!), more/brighter LEDs, admittedly poor/cheesy dots, a pared-down playfield with fewer types of shots that is--consequently--faster, and 6 non-innovative modes (with minor variation/progression on them to give "18") that re-use the same limited shots on the pf, qualifies as "ground breaking." I disagree. It is a lot of fun for many people (and, of course, the newest "best ever!" pin), but I see no real innovation here, and barely any progression over other pins. Wake me when Stern breaks new ground in pinball.

ST(LE) is a ot of fun for many people, and that's good for pinball. But Stern hasn't broken any new ground in a while, nor do they feel the need to, apparently. The groundbreakers are JJP, JPOP, Heighway, perhaps Spooky/Ben Heck, etc. Really new/different stuff coming from them, although not on a regular manufacturing schedule, admittedly.

And that's the magic! The most satisfying shot layout ever. Combined with lighting and effects make it a fun game. Literally playable over and over again.

I totally agree with you…it's really, really hard to qualify this effort as "ground breaking". Granted, the cabinet bling is much nicer than usual (the emblems on the BB, the lit/etched armor and the speaker panel all look "rich"…not cheap), however the play-related software/hardware/display is the same old platform. fwiw, I don't see AC/DC or MET as ground breaking either (yet I really like both of those efforts).

you keep saying that, but it seems like you're the one acting insecure and taking other peoples' opinions too personally.

I'm not insecure. Don't own a STLE. Just pointing out some STTNG owner's irrational bashing of Stern's new Star Trek pin.

the first mention of sttng on this very thread was a guy bashing it, and suggesting that STLEs are going to rise in value over time. i mocked that second sentiment and left the first one alone.

the second mention of STTNG on this thread was a guy declaring STLE the best pin ever made.

third mention was the first one to prefer STTNG over STLE, but he basically said nice things about STLE. he just didn't think it was the greatest ever.

fourth mention was a guy bashing STTNG claiming he makes the final frontier too often and STLE is more challenging.

then there was some back and forth over whether it is hard to get to the final frontier (zzzzz)

then you jumped in and said "STTNG doesn't deserve to smell STLE's shit!" i guess because the level of discourse was just too civil for you up to that point? i don't know.

i mean, i am just not seeing the STLE bashing that apparently egged you into your comment, or your accusations that STLE is under constant unfair attack from jealous STTNG owners.

Hey Pez, thankfully all I see is "ignored user comment" under the quoted sections you have but, I agree with you 100%.

Check again. I've owned a lot of pins so you missed it. I've owned and played STTNG quite a bit. I've played STLE several times but you're right, I don't own it. Didn't know that was a requirement to have an opinion on a game. That sure will quiet down pinside when everybody finds out.

My reaction and comments were to a comment that STTNG is crap next to STLE. It's all opinion anyway. STLE has fun flow and looks great. My opinion is that STTNG is a much better game than STLE for the reasons I stated.

Negative to your negative. Incredibly fun to play modes, fun multiballs (and lots of 'em), final mode that has great feature of being more lucrative the better you did on the modes, cool Borg ship that fires a ball at you (surprise! if its your first time playing it and cool thereafter), cool warp buildup using a combo shot to complete (Picard maneuver), no color changing LEDs (love the incandescent lighting effects).

I said the attitude of "many" is that newer is better and automatically rate them as high as time tested older pins. I like several Stern pins, I just like more Williams pins, and Bally, and classic Stern, and Gottlieb.

I'm not defensive at all about STTNG. I just think that it can smell STLEs shit...from in front and not behind.

wow, that's serious praise. I like it too, but that thought has yet to enter my mind. Maybe with more play.

STLE is an awesome game. I have really come to like it. It may some day rival ACDC as my personal #1 and I definitely put it in the top ten ever. I have a couple of anecdotal stories too...

My pinball savant friend Pete falls for one game a year and becomes obsessed. He has no idea what pinside is, could care less about fan boy pride, never heard of JJP and doesn't know what stacking or progression are. He just knows a great machine when he plays it. He has scored 55 billion on my AFM. He likes ACDC a lot, but STLE became the new go-to game for him on first play. Of course he put up the GC score on his second game and I now have no chance to ever put up initials until a new software revision is released.

I have a lady friend who comes by for an occasional booty call for the last four years or so. She will rarely play a game or two if she has been drinking enough but loses interest fast. The other night I showed her the new STLE and she played it for two hours straight. She says the colors and the whole package just sucked her in, plus she loves the movies. This was obviously not my plan for the evening, but on the other hand she called just a few days later to see if she could come over again.

So it may not be for everyone. NO GAME IS FOR EVERYONE, but STLE is new and exciting to *me*. One neat advancement on this game is the speaker/display panel. For 30 years we have had reflection from score/DMD displays on the on the playfield glass. Suddenly Stern gets the bright idea to angle the display more towards the player's view a few degrees and bam; no more need for a glare guard! I have been making glare guards for ten years now and for the first time I own a modern machine that doesn't need one! Small change that easily goes unnoticed, but it makes a big difference.

I still see a good amount of glare from ST pro

That's an excellent point on the display angle…much appreciated. Now I'd really be happy if they had a software config to dim the BB light when I hit "start" Or simply an on/off switch. This way all glare can be eliminated.

After playing one locally, I've decided to take the plunge. Canceled my preorder, but now that I've seen/played it, I feel much more comfortable with the purchase. Should be here in a couple weeks…not built yet.