(Topic ID: 198116)

Has 2017 been a bad year for Stern code support?


By PanzerFreak

2 years ago



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  • Latest reply 2 years ago by TigerLaw
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    “Is 2017 Sterns worst year for code support?”

    • Yes 163 votes
      88%
    • No 22 votes
      12%

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    #101 2 years ago
    Quoted from Darscot:

    Your children's hospital is not a valid point, they won't even let you plug in your phone in a hospital for exactly that reason. Everything needs to be approved in a hospital and they don't just allow any old electronics plugged in.

    http://projectpinball.org/ - you should donate.

    Quoted from Darscot:

    I haven't done much with my pins but I thought someone had pong running on the DMD.

    Care to provide a link to that? I'd be curious to see it.

    Quoted from smokedog:

    And if it's no issue, why does not one pinball company use open source code and allow end users to alter their games?

    No answer to this question?

    #102 2 years ago
    Quoted from TigerLaw:

    In my opinion losing Keith to JJP was one of the biggest blows Stern ever took as a company. They didn't feel it right away but the hole Keith left is readily apparent now.
    I think the game designers themselves need to take more of an interest in seeing their games code brought to a better place and at a quicker pace.

    Apples and Oranges. Games at JJP in have gestation periods of 2-4 years. If Stern were releasing a new title every 4 years instead of every 4 months it might be a relevant comparison.

    #103 2 years ago

    The people that place those pins in the hospital and the hospital would be liable if something went wrong. The manufacturer of the pin would not be.

    I'm sure you can find plenty of info about custom code and firmware. Just search here or google.

    As I clearly stated just because no one has done it yet is not in anyway an argument that its a bad idea or can't be done. Stern could easily open their code, I think it would be a pretty good move. That being said I only have an outsiders knowledge of their business so there may be a reason that has not been presented.

    If I was Stern I would just make a financial investment in code and do a better job. If they truly can not balance the cost then I would open source it.

    #104 2 years ago
    Quoted from CrazyLevi:

    Apples and Oranges. Games at JJP in have gestation periods of 2-4 years. If Stern were releasing a new title every 4 years instead of every 4 months it might be a relevant comparison.

    I'm not so sure about the comparison not being fair. If just one more Stern game per year had knock out code to level Keith codes there would be much less complaining.

    Just think if BM66 had as much thoughtful code as DI! Or if Kiss had as much thoughtful code TH. If BM66 and Kiss were both at a complete and master code level (with everything else being the same) do you think there would be this many people disappointed with Stern's code efforts?

    One more masterpiece of code game per year would make a huge difference in perception. It's apples to apples.

    #105 2 years ago
    Quoted from TigerLaw:

    I'm not so sure about the comparison not being fair. If just one more Stern game per year had knock out code to level Keith codes there would be much less complaining.
    Just think if BM66 had as much thoughtful code as DI! Or if Kiss had as much thoughtful code TH. If BM66 and Kiss were both as master code level (with everything else being the same) do you think there would be this many people disappointed with Stern's code efforts?
    One more masterpiece of code game per year would make a huge difference in perception. It's apples to apples.

    Kiss has great code. It's a great game to play, especially competitively. The complaints about that one are unfounded at this point, the game is done and I don't see how adding anything would make it a measurably better game. Just like Walking Dead, Metallica, Star Trek, GOT, and plenty of other Stern "masterpieces" that people always pretend don't exist in these threads.

    The Batman code obviously is unfinished, and it's not fair to compare it to Dialed In until 2020. And there's a guy named Lyman Sheets who I believe is doing the code for that one - maybe you've heard of him? Pretty good coder as far as I can tell.

    I do the think the comparisons are unfair. If people didn't want Stern to keep churning out games, they'd stop buying them, and they aren't. One new Stern game every 3-4 years clearly wouldn't satisfy the marketplace. It seems to be working for JJP but it wouldn't for Stern.

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    #106 2 years ago

    Considering we're debuting our 3rd new game in 4 expos, I think we can safely drop the 3-4 years gag now. Maybe you can tell us another "our next game is The Sound of Music" joke too?

    I just looked it up, and aside from some very preliminary work being done around expo 2015, programming on DI didn't start in earnest until June 1, 2016. Version 1.0 was release on May 5, 2017, and 1.13 (the one the vast majority shipped with) released on June 1, 2017, exactly a year later. Just so we're clear on the facts we're throwing around.

    The comparisons are not as far off as you think.

    We're getting better and will keep getting better.

    #107 2 years ago
    Quoted from CrazyLevi:

    And there's a guy named Lyman Sheets who I believe is doing the code for that one - maybe you've heard of him? Pretty good coder as far as I can tell.

    Straw man argument. Obviously Lyman has a good history, you act like that is not known. Many of us have faith in Lyman, but past results are not indicative of future performance and as of right now BM66 is far behind the various representations that Stern's agents have made.

    DI! and BM66 were officially announced around the same time, BM66 was actually announced earlier. Not sure why you would give Stern another three years to work on BM66 before you thought it was a fair comparison, but such your personal prerogative...

    Glad you are satisfied with Kiss's code. Many are not. Many dumped the game.

    #108 2 years ago
    Quoted from pinball_keefer:

    Considering we're debuting our 3rd new game in 4 expos, I think we can safely drop the 3-4 years gag now. Maybe you can tell us another "our next game is The Sound of Music" joke too?
    We're getting better and will keep getting better.

    I'm about the only person here NOT to pick on the WOZ theme. Or the Dialed In theme when it was announced, for that matter.

    I'm glad to hear JJP will be churning out games faster from here on in. If they are up to the quality of Dialed In and come out on a timely basis that is exciting news.

    Quoted from TigerLaw:

    Glad you are satisfied with Kiss's code. Many are not. Many dumped the game.

    Straw man argument. Many people have dumped every game ever made.

    #109 2 years ago
    Quoted from CrazyLevi:

    Kiss has great code. It's a great game to play, especially competitively. The complaints about that one are unfounded at this point, the game is done and I don't see how adding anything would make it a measurably better game. Just like Walking Dead, Metallica, Star Trek, GOT, and plenty of other Stern "masterpieces" that people always pretend don't exist in these threads.
    The Batman code obviously is unfinished, and it's not fair to compare it to Dialed In until 2020. And there's a guy named Lyman Sheets who I believe is doing the code for that one - maybe you've heard of him? Pretty good coder as far as I can tell.
    I do the think the comparisons are unfair. If people didn't want Stern to keep churning out games, they'd stop buying them, and they aren't. One new Stern game every 3-4 years clearly wouldn't satisfy the marketplace. It seems to be working for JJP but it wouldn't for Stern.

    Plenty of bugs in KISS.

    Yes, code is very good but there are a ton of unused callouts etc...

    And who doesn't like Champion awards?

    #110 2 years ago

    Ghosbusters needs more work than KISS. KISS is just not very fun. It's a very boring layout, pretty pedestrian ruleset, and has the worst ball lock ever. All that makes the little annoyances feel much bigger than they are, but yes, there is room to improve on KISS. But really, it's not like it's a great canvas to work with.

    Ghostbusters has a fantastic layout. It just desperately needs score balancing, big improvement to the wizard modes (those can't be what they ever intended them to be), and a good amount of bug squashing. They really could elevate that game quite a bit.

    #111 2 years ago

    Is Lyman actually working on a game at this time? Haven't heard any rumors regarding him in months.

    #112 2 years ago
    Quoted from GravitaR:

    Is Lyman actually working on a game at this time? Haven't heard any rumors regarding him in months.

    I would not be surprised if he is working on GOTG since that is supposed to be the much anticipated Elwin re-theme.

    #113 2 years ago
    Quoted from DCFAN:

    I would not be surprised if he is working on GOTG since that is supposed to be the much anticipated Elwin re-theme.

    Nope. GOTG is Borg w/ Tanio.

    #114 2 years ago
    Quoted from Rarehero:

    Nope. GOTG is Borg w/ Tanio.

    What theme did Elwin get then?

    #115 2 years ago
    Quoted from DCFAN:

    What theme did Elwin get then?

    Rumor is Deadpool.

    #116 2 years ago

    I thought Elwin got Iron Maiden, but maybe that was Trudeau's game and was supposed to be next. I'm not sure anymore.

    #117 2 years ago

    You buy a Stern for the theme, not the code. Gary knows this, and spends accordingly.

    #118 2 years ago

    It's really pretty simple with how stern codes. Expect the game to get to 1.0 eventually. After that, expect the game to be finished outside of a bug update or two.

    So for AS, outside of a bug update or two, expect no more

    KiSS, GB, GOT, expect no more.

    B66 and SW. Safe bet more to come until at least 1.0 (I think both are still pre 1.0)

    If you go by this, combined with buying a game after you play it, doubt you'll ever be disappointed.

    Not sure why this keeps getting discussed.

    #119 2 years ago
    Quoted from chuckwurt:

    If you go by this, combined with buying a game after you play it, doubt you'll ever be disappointed.
    Not sure why this keeps getting discussed.

    Because Ghostbusters has never had that final pass that it desperately needs. So yeah, there's plenty of reason to be disappointed there. It has game breaking bugs and still has placeholder modes (the two wizard modes are a joke). Score balance is bad. It's a very good game that could be great with minimal effort. Minimal effort often times proves to be too much, however.

    No other manufacturer in pinball would leave a game with a game stopping bug in it forever...or even for this long. And they don't sell nearly as many machines. Simply put, Stern cares the least about the state of their final product than any other manufacturer. State of code is the easiest way to prove that.

    #120 2 years ago
    Quoted from jar155:

    Because Ghostbusters has never had that final pass that it desperately needs. So yeah, there's plenty of reason to be disappointed there. It has game breaking bugs and still has placeholder modes (the two wizard modes are a joke). Score balance is bad. It's a very good game that could be great with minimal effort. Minimal effort often times proves to be too much, however.
    No other manufacturer in pinball would leave a game with a game stopping bug in it forever...or even for this long. And they don't sell nearly as many machines. Simply put, Stern cares the least about the state of their final product than any other manufacturer. State of code is the easiest way to prove that.

    Did you put time in on the game before you bought it? I've put plenty of time on ghostbusters. I've determined the game is not for me due to some of the very things you mentioned.

    Sure we can want things to be done differently, and lots of those complaints are certainly valid, but if you just run with what I said above and I promise you your experience will be better.

    #121 2 years ago
    Quoted from chuckwurt:

    It's really pretty simple with how stern codes. Expect the game to get to 1.0 eventually. After that, expect the game to be finished outside of a big update or two.
    So for AS, outside of a bug update or two, expect no more
    KiSS, GB, GOT, expect no more.
    B66 and SW. Safe bet more to come until at least 1.0 (I think both are still pre 1.0)
    If you go by this, combined with buying a game after you play it, doubt you'll ever be disappointed.
    Not sure why this keeps getting discussed.

    How can they call Ghostbusters version 1.0 when there are modes listed on the instruction card, and inserts on the playfield, that aren't implemented in the game? There is no getting around the fact that it is literally unfinished (and that's leaving aside any scoring imbalances or bugs).

    #122 2 years ago
    Quoted from pezpunk:

    how can they call Ghostbusters version 1.0 when there are modes listed on the instruction card, and inserts on the playfield, that aren't implemented in the game?? there is no getting around the fact that it is literally unfinished -- and that's WITHOUT going into the scoring imbalances or bugs.

    All I can tell you is that it's past 1.0 to them, and to not expect anymore updates except possibly bug fixes and scoring balances.

    #123 2 years ago
    Quoted from chuckwurt:

    Did you put time in on the game before you bought it? I've put plenty of time on ghostbusters. I've determined the game is not for me due to some of the very things you mentioned.
    Sure we can want things to be done differently, and lots of those complaints are certainly valid, but if you just run with what I said above and I promise you your experience will be better.

    Yeah, I played it plenty. I ordered an LE and was able to play the pro a lot and put time in on a premium (Pinball Showdown had an LE/premium hybrid real early) before mine shipped. Thing is, with Ghostbusters, bugs got WORSE after it shipped. They have literally introduced more bugs than features post launch.

    #124 2 years ago
    Quoted from jar155:

    Yeah, I played it plenty. I ordered an LE and was able to play the pro a lot and put time in on a premium (Pinball Showdown had an LE/premium hybrid real early) before mine shipped. Thing is, with Ghostbusters, bugs got WORSE after it shipped. They have literally introduced more bugs than features post launch.

    care to expand? I haven't noticed anything worse with the updates. I'm not saying you're lying, but I just haven't seen any gamestopping bugs you mention. Might not be the best tournament game, but haven't noticed anything catastrophic.

    If Dwight revisit it, it will be good for him to know about these.

    #125 2 years ago
    Quoted from TigerLaw:

    I'm not so sure about the comparison not being fair. If just one more Stern game per year had knock out code to level Keith codes there would be much less complaining.
    Just think if BM66 had as much thoughtful code as DI! Or if Kiss had as much thoughtful code TH. If BM66 and Kiss were both at a complete and master code level (with everything else being the same) do you think there would be this many people disappointed with Stern's code efforts?
    One more masterpiece of code game per year would make a huge difference in perception. It's apples to apples.

    When not "if" Tiger. I love my Keith games but I'll take Lyman any day. And BM66 will be phenomenal

    As for Apples to apples, Stern simply needs to get more coding help. They can't keep leaving games half ass for long periods of time and some unfinished altogether

    One of the best things about a JJP pin is Keith, period

    #126 2 years ago

    Getting stuck in a mode that won't finish is game stopping. You can't score pretty much anything when a mode won't finish. In fact, I had that happen to me in a tournament. That was real fun. Having the ball eject during the video mode to end a game is absolutely game stopping. I've also had it happen more than once that Slimer moved to the Ecto Goggles but shooting it won't collect. So you can't progress through modes.

    Ghostbusters has a lot of bugs. Many of those bugs ruin a game.

    #127 2 years ago

    I love my GBLE. Very minor bugs

    Overall, Dwight did a really good job on it.

    My complaint on non Lyman pins is that they never seem to really create the over the top wow factor like TWD

    GBLE has much more potential that will never be realized

    The left bank targets are a waste and it needs another very cool multi ball mode

    #128 2 years ago
    Quoted from jar155:

    Getting stuck in a mode that won't finish is game stopping. You can't score pretty much anything when a mode won't finish. In fact, I had that happen to me in a tournament. That was real fun. Having the ball eject during the video mode to end a game is absolutely game stopping. I've also had it happen more than once that Slimer moved to the Ecto Goggles but shooting it won't collect. So you can't progress through modes.
    Ghostbusters has a lot of bugs. Many of those bugs ruin a game.

    Are these bugs experienced in a premium LE only? Never once seen any of these in a pro. Playing this in tournaments and on location multiple times a month for multiple plays a night seems like I should've seen it at least once by now.

    #129 2 years ago
    Quoted from chuckwurt:

    Are these bugs experienced in a premium LE only? Never once seen any of these in a pro. Playing this in tournaments and on location multiple times a month for multiple plays a night seems like I should've seen it at least once by now.

    The mode not completing is a common bug across all versions. I think it's Spook Central that won't complete. The video mode ejecting a ball is also a common bug. The Slimer issue must be premium/LE specific due to the Ecto Goggles.

    Either way, the game is unfinished. The wizard modes are the worst multiballs in the game. There's no way that's what they intended from the outset.

    #130 2 years ago
    Quoted from jar155:

    I think it's Spook Central that won't complete. The video mode ejecting a ball is also a common bug

    People exploit the video mode plunge all the time at this location, never seen the issue outside of early code revisions. Any specific situation where it happens consistently?

    Spook central same thing Which shot is left when you cannot complete it? Maybe something isn't registering?

    For the other stuff, again. Possible they get a revisit, but assume they won't.

    #131 2 years ago
    Quoted from TigerLaw:

    I think the game designers themselves need to take more of an interest in seeing their games code brought to a better place and at a quicker pace.

    I doubt any programmer enjoys seeing people dump on their work, or leaving things unfinished. It's up to the company to provide the time and resources to fix that. If you like going home and working on things from the office on your own time then cool, but that's not a reasonable thing to expect.

    I was told by a Stern programmer that he was given half the time for a Stern game than they got back in the 90s to do the programming. And people expect more out of the code these days. It's no wonder nothing feels finished. That's on Stern management though, not Lyman, not Lonnie, not Dwight.

    #132 2 years ago

    I hear people say it's not fair to compare Stern code to JJP, JJP has had more time to develop their code. Personally I don't give a sh*t, it's my hard-earned money I'm spending to buy a game, I want the best code I can get for my money and we see who is truly dedicated to code and who's not. I really hope AS gets another update, feels kind of bland, but I really have my doubts and that is one of the many reasons AS will be out the door long before my Dialed In

    #133 2 years ago

    Times have changed. Expect nothing more than what you see and perhaps a bit more to get code to 1.0 (latest games are beta code now). In no other industry is this acceptable as beta code means unfinished and not ready for full release. There are too many games coming out and pressure on programmers has increased dramatically. What you see is what you get from Stern these days as there is just no more time to go back and fill in the details like was done for TWD for example.

    You think in an environment where Stern is stripping the magnets from SW that they will pay programmers for nuanced code? After SW, it's clear they are in get-the-money-and-run mode.

    And we need to lay off the programmers as it's not their fault - they can only work so many hours a week.

    #134 2 years ago

    There's still a fair few bugs in wrestlemania that need to be ironed out. Code needs a definite clean up.

    #135 2 years ago
    Quoted from whisper:

    There's still a fair few bugs in wrestlemania that need to be ironed out. Code needs a definite clean up.

    Isn't the game impossible to complete on the LE?

    #136 2 years ago
    Quoted from Aurich:

    I doubt any programmer enjoys seeing people dump on their work, or leaving things unfinished. It's up to the company to provide the time and resources to fix that. If you like going home and working on things from the office on your own time then cool, but that's not a reasonable thing to expect.
    I was told by a Stern programmer that he was given half the time for a Stern game than they got back in the 90s to do the programming. And people expect more out of the code these days. It's no wonder nothing feels finished. That's on Stern management though, not Lyman, not Lonnie, not Dwight.

    The thing that does not make sense is that they have about 5 or 6 programmers from what I can tell, but they only release 3 or less games a year. Shouldn't a single programmer be able to do at least one complete game a year. It sounds as though there is either a lack of motivation and/or poor project management.

    #137 2 years ago
    Quoted from Aurich:

    I doubt any programmer enjoys seeing people dump on their work, or leaving things unfinished. It's up to the company to provide the time and resources to fix that. If you like going home and working on things from the office on your own time then cool, but that's not a reasonable thing to expect.
    I was told by a Stern programmer that he was given half the time for a Stern game than they got back in the 90s to do the programming. And people expect more out of the code these days. It's no wonder nothing feels finished. That's on Stern management though, not Lyman, not Lonnie, not Dwight.

    I kinda torn on this, one side of me completely agrees the other is torn. First I sure as fuck do not work for free, I already feel the company I work for gets way to much work for free from me. When its busy and stressful I wake up in the middle of the night with a solution and it pisses me off. They have me working in my sleep.

    The other side of me thinks if I wasn't proud of what I do, felt I have real input into the product and making great stuff, my ass would have been gone long ago. I don't think I could work for Stern it would drive me nuts not to be able to complete a game to the level I feel it should be.

    #138 2 years ago
    Quoted from spinal:

    Times have changed. Expect nothing more than what you see and perhaps a bit more to get code to 1.0 (latest games are beta code now). In no other industry is this acceptable as beta code means unfinished and not ready for full release. There are too many games coming out and pressure on programmers has increased dramatically. What you see is what you get from Stern these days as there is just no more time to go back and fill in the details like was done for TWD for example.
    You think in an environment where Stern is stripping the magnets from SW that they will pay programmers for nuanced code? After SW, it's clear they are in get-the-money-and-run mode.
    And we need to lay off the programmers as it's not their fault - they can only work so many hours a week.

    i don't understand your point. i don't think anyone here is blaming the programmers per se. everyone knows it is the fault of Stern management. and it's not an unfixable problem. JJP has no problem granting their developers enough time to finish the code on their games. this is purely a bad management decision at Stern.

    #139 2 years ago

    By the way, I think the Stern programmers do great work. They're seriously top notch talent. It's the level of support we get post launch that is disappointing. I hope people don't pin that on the programmers. They do what they're told and they're responsible for getting upcoming games finished as well.

    They do good work! Let's not forget that part. I just wish Stern could pump the brakes on releases a bit or hire more junior programmers to handle bug issues and maintenance releases.

    #140 2 years ago

    My main point was that people are still buying Stern games and expecting that they will someday get polished code like other games have received in the past and I'm saying don't hold your breath. Programmers are being put on new games all the time and are getting less time than ever before to clean up code. Profit is in the new games and Stern are showing how much they care (very little) for the art form itself or for building up the market by releasing the best they can do (SW is an insult really). So buyers should be aware to not buy on future potential - buy only on what you actually see.

    #141 2 years ago
    Quoted from GravitaR:

    Is Lyman actually working on a game at this time? Haven't heard any rumors regarding him in months.

    Supposedly, Lyman has been dedicated and feverishly at work on BM66 for a year now. Then it's rumored that he's on to Elvira.

    Quoted from DCFAN:

    The thing that does not make sense is that they have about 5 or 6 programmers from what I can tell, but they only release 3 or less games a year. Shouldn't a single programmer be able to do at least one complete game a year. It sounds as though there is either a lack of motivation and/or poor project management.

    I used to guess that it took about a year to program a game, just wag guessing of course, but given BM66's abysmal progress, maybe it takes two years?

    #142 2 years ago
    Quoted from taz:

    Supposedly, Lyman has been dedicated and feverishly at work on BM66 for a year now. Then it's rumored that he's on to Elvira.

    I used to guess that it took about a year to program a game, just wag guessing of course, but given BM66's abysmal progress, maybe it takes two years?

    I don't believe that Lyman is able to work on BM 66 exclusively until it is finished. Stern has been pulling him in all directions for years.

    #143 2 years ago

    What about that garage programmer dude who hacked into Data East SW and JP?

    A) it did not make the game catch on fire!

    B) can't Stern hire this guy to help for free?

    #144 2 years ago
    Quoted from pezpunk:

    i don't understand your point. i don't think anyone here is blaming the programmers per se.

    I'm not so sure with the way they shit on Lonnie.

    #145 2 years ago

    Theme sells games and gets players to drop coins in it. The players at my location love star wars and don't even notice it's missing so many features. Unfortunately I think we pinsiders are the vocal minority on this issue.

    #146 2 years ago
    Quoted from fattdirk:

    Unfortunately I think we pinsiders are the vocal minority on this issue.

    You mean normal people don't have a dream journal of all the ideas they assume will be in Star Wars when it's released?
    But then how do they feel betrayed and take it personal when their little ideas don't come to life?

    #147 2 years ago
    Quoted from fattdirk:

    Theme sells games and gets players to drop coins in it. The players at my location love star wars and don't even notice it's missing so many features. Unfortunately I think we pinsiders are the vocal minority on this issue.

    When the manufactures switched their focus to the home user market programming code (or lack there of) became more of an issue. The average Joe who throws a few quarters into a machine could care less.

    #148 2 years ago
    Quoted from PtownPin:

    When the manufactures switched their focus to the home user market programming code (or lack there of) became more of an issue.

    Well then all the home market has to do is police themselves and not buy games to hahahahaa sorry i couldn't even finish typing it.

    #149 2 years ago
    Quoted from PtownPin:

    When the manufactures switched their focus to the home user market programming code (or lack there of) became more of an issue. The average Joe who throws a few quarters into a machine could care less.

    It's only an issue on pinside. The average person never even notices the bugs. I would guess that the majority of pinsiders don't even notice incomplete code or bugs and only are notified of them by reading on here. A lot of collectors are just terrible at pinball. You don't have to be good to enjoy the game. I wish Stern cared about making complete games, sadly I think they only really care about the cash flow.

    #150 2 years ago
    Quoted from fattdirk:

    It's only an issue on pinside. The average person never even notices the bugs. I would guess that the majority of pinsiders don't even notice incomplete code or bugs and only are notified of them by reading on here. A lot of collectors are just terrible at pinball. You don't have to be good to enjoy the game. I wish Stern cared about making complete games, sadly I think they only really care about the cash flow.

    That's always been the conundrum about pinball and what it is. Is it just a 2 minute time killer in a bar, or is it a "real game"? I'd like to think it's a "real game", a game of skill...and games of skills have to have sound rules and logic - AKA, complete code & bug free. If Stern was content to just make time killers, why are they bothering with these deep (and confusing) games like GOT, GB & SW? In 2010, they went in a different direction. IM, Tron, Avatar, BBH, and TRS have very simple rules...practically cut 'n paste with a few tweaks. They wanted to "dumb things down" since location players had no idea what to do on deep games...and deep games had to have longer ball times. With IM they made something fast, fun, quick, addicting, easy to understand, hard to master. Collectors didn't like those games at first, Iron Man sold like crap - so they went back to more complex and deeper games to lure the home buyer...because the home buyer KNOWS a good game from a poor game, and expects a bit more depth and thoughtful gameplay than a location player. That's why games like TSPP & LOTR sold so well.

    Fast forward, people ended up LOVING games like IM and it went back into production with the Vault Edition. Home buyers started to favor fast paced quick balltime games vs. LOTR type stuff (hence the Hobbit-hate). So, based on current tastes & customers, I have NO IDEA why they're still attempting deep games and not just doing IM/Tron type stuff. Like you said, average person doesn't notice...and they just don't have the schedules to make super deep & polished games. Maybe they need to go back to their 2010 design philosophy.

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    $ 99.99
    Lighting - Other
    Lighted Pinball Mods
    $ 29.95
    Gameroom - Decorations
    Pinball Photos
    From: $ 22.00
    $ 49.95
    Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
    pinballmod
    $ 71.99
    Lighting - Interactive
    Lee's Parts
    $ 1,099.00
    Flipper Parts
    Mircoplayfields
    $ 48.00
    Playfield - Plastics
    Vandelay Industries
    $ 45.00
    Cabinet - Shooter Rods
    LightAndTimeArt
    From: $ 7.00
    Playfield - Protection
    Pinball Haus
    $ 334.95
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