(Topic ID: 278265)

Harlem G/Trotters display help

By jardine

3 years ago


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#1 3 years ago

I am having issues with my displays in my Harlem.

I attached a video below just to show exactly what's going on but need to fix player 2, 3 and 4.

Player 4 is working but the numbers are flickering which can't really be seen on the vidoe because they are all flickering.......this is just iphone at its best, sorry.

Also attached some underneath photos of the displays. They are, in order, 2, 3 and 4 display.

Any help would be greatly appreciated as this is the last nail that needs to be knocked in to get this pin pretty much 100%

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#2 3 years ago

RE: Player 2, measure the 100k resistor at location resistor R3, likely it has gone high/open resistance.

RE: Player 3, this is a Stern display. A single bright digit is usually a shorted/stuck driver transistor/level shifter transistor. These are transistors Q4 and Q10 and/or shorted 100k resistor at R7.
There's also a number of suspect solder joints that need to be addressed/reflowed.

Display_SternHG1.jpgDisplay_SternHG1.jpg

Quoted from jardine:

Player 4 is working but the numbers are flickering which can't really be seen on the vidoe because they are all flickering

Single flickering displays are usually cracked solder joints on the pin header and/or the glass display connector. The pin header looks to have been reflowed so check the soldering on the glass display pins.

#3 3 years ago

Thanks Quench Appreciate all the replies and help so far.

I was thinking of getting the header pins re-flowed as a start but will look to test the transistors and resistors as above for you and report back.

Player 2 and 3 show signs of a brownish look at the pins....is this also an issue? What causes this or is it something to not worry about at this stage?

#4 3 years ago
Quoted from jardine:

Player 2 and 3 show signs of a brownish look at the pins....is this also an issue?

If you mean the glossy brown stuff on the soldered pins, that's just flux/resin from the solder. No need to worry about it. If it aesthetically bothers you, use isopropyl to clean it with a tooth brush.

#5 3 years ago

Flickering can also be due to bad pins inside the connector. Ask me how I know

#6 3 years ago


Quoted from emsrph:Flickering can also be due to bad pins inside the connector. Ask me how I know

I had to repin my rectifier board connectors...yeah...fun job....not!

With the connectors on my display, the cables loop around, if I were to replace....how do I do this? Just for knowledge I guess...and if it comes to that.

Is it just a matter of carefully removing the cable, finding the right connector and pins, and pressing back in?

120133519_3515451908476154_8236119045553130130_n (1) (resized).jpg120133519_3515451908476154_8236119045553130130_n (1) (resized).jpg
#7 3 years ago
Quoted from jardine:

I had to repin my rectifier board connectors...yeah...fun job....not!
With the connectors on my display, the cables loop around, if I were to replace....how do I do this? Just for knowledge I guess...and if it comes to that.
Is it just a matter of carefully removing the cable, finding the right connector and pins, and pressing back in?

That's an IDC (Insulation Displacement Connector). If you re-pin it you'll probably be using crimp on terminals like you used for the rectifier board.

Only difference will be instead of the loops you'll be inserting two wires into each pin

Check out this article- http://www.pinrepair.com/connect/#looped especially section #6 near the end.

#8 3 years ago
Quoted from emsrph:

That's an IDC (Insulation Displacement Connector). If you re-pin it you'll probably be using crimp on terminals like you used for the rectifier board.
Only difference will be instead of the loops you'll be inserting two wires into each pin
Check out this article- http://www.pinrepair.com/connect/#looped especially section #6 near the end.

That all looks very painful and time consuming.....thanks for the link though!

Quench (and others ) readings from what you requested above:

Player 2: R3 - O.L , which I presume is open resistance as you said??
Player 3: Q4 - 23m ohm left leg, 36m ohm right leg
Q10 - O.L left leg, 2.0k ohm right leg
R7 - 2m ohm

#9 3 years ago
Quoted from emsrph:

Flickering can also be due to bad pins inside the connector. Ask me how I know

Out of interest, do you remember which exact pin it was that caused the flickering?

Quoted from jardine:

Player 2: R3 - O.L , which I presume is open resistance as you said??

Yep she's open resistance and needs to be replaced. Standard procedure says to replace all the six 100k resistors for the digit drive circuits. These are resistors R1, R3, R5, R7, R9 and R11. Technically they should be replaced with higher wattage resistors (1/2 watt).

What resistance do you measure across R1, R5, R7, R9 and R11?

RE: Player 3: set your meter to diode mode which is the ---|>|--- symbol.
The 1,000's digit drive transistors are Q4 and Q10.

The 100's digit drive transistors are Q3 and Q9.
The 10,000's digit drive transistors are Q5 and Q11.

These transistors all have three legs. With your meter in diode mode, check the readings between each pair of legs on Q4, and also do it with the meter leads swapped around (you should get 6 readings in total per transistor). Then do the same with Q10.

Now compare the readings of Q4 to both Q3 and Q5.
Do the same comparing the readings of Q10 to Q9 and Q11.
Look for anything abnormally different.
Q4 readings should be about the same as Q3 and Q5. Ditto for Q10 readings being about the same as Q9 and Q11.

What resistance do you measure across R1, R3, R5, R9 and R11?

#10 3 years ago
Quoted from Quench:

Out of interest, do you remember which exact pin it was that caused the flickering?

Pin 20, the 5 volt pin on the display connector was busted

#11 3 years ago
Quoted from emsrph:

Pin 20, the 5 volt pin on the display connector was busted

Hmm, strange. No voltage getting to the display decoder chip and I'd expect a blank display, not flickering. But the flickering is a common problem with cracked solder joints. I might have to test disconnecting that pin 20 here for my curiosity.

#12 3 years ago
Quoted from Quench:

Hmm, strange. No voltage getting to the display decoder chip and I'd expect a blank display, not flickering. But the flickering is a common problem with cracked solder joints. I might have to test disconnecting that pin 20 here for my curiosity.

That pin was hanging on by a thread and intermittent. When I removed it from the connector it broke completely.
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/display-bright-dim-rolling

#13 3 years ago

Replacing the IDC connectors with traditional types for the displays would be a tough slog. I would leave them be unless you have a known defective housing.

#14 3 years ago

Ok, hopefully got all these readings correct. Never really done this so with the transistors before. I had the red lead on the single leg side, black lead touched the double leg side to get a reading.

All readings as follows:

Player 2:

R1 - 83.4k
R3 - OL
R5 - 91.2k
R7 - 83.4k
R9 - 32.9k
R11 - 102.8k

Player 3:

R1 - 104.4k
R3 - 350-360k
R5 - 0.695m
R9 - 108.1k
R11 - 137.5k

Q4 - (L) .598v (R) .617v Q3 (L) .632 (R) .637 Q5 (L) .600 (R) .627

Q10 - (L) OL (R) .584 Q9 (L) OL (R) .584 Q11 (L) OL (R) .581

#15 3 years ago
Quoted from jardine:

Player 2: "R1=83.4k", "R3=OL", "R5=91.2k", "R7=83.4k", "R9=32.9k", "R11=102.8k"

RE: Player 2: The only one of these resistors that's still in spec is R11. R9 is disturbingly low and will end up causing digit burn on the 10,000 digit. R3 open circuit is causing the blank 10's digit. All six of these resistors need to be replaced.

Quoted from jardine:

Player 3: "R1=104.4k", "R3=350-360k", "R5=0.695m", "R7=2m", "R9=108.1k", "R11=137.5k"

RE: Player 3: R3, R5, R7, R9 and R11 are all out of spec. Again, all six of these resistors should be replaced.
To be honest you should check these resistors on the other three displays.

Below are the transistor readings I've taken from one of my 6 digit displays. Is this roughly how you read yours? Note these readings were taken from the component side of the board.
First diagram is Q4 with all the combinations of legs and meter lead orientation.
First diagram is Q10 with all the combinations of legs and meter lead orientation.

Display_MPSA42_test.pngDisplay_MPSA42_test.png
Display_2N5401_test.pngDisplay_2N5401_test.png

#16 3 years ago

Thanks for the help so far Quench really appreciate it. Enjoying learning this process as well to be honest!

As for testing of the transistors. I only tested with the method on the first photo of each Q4 and Q10.

I didn’t test the other combinations as I’m pretty sure when I tested with black lead on the single leg it didn’t give a reading (OL) so thought it incorrect.

#17 3 years ago

Post some clear high res pictures of the player 3 display from the component side - preferably outdoors in daylight but not in direct sunlight.

First, replace all those 100k resistors.
If the 1000's digit is still stuck on bright on the player 3 display and you're tired of taking transistor measurements, swap Q10 for Q7. If no change to the stuck digit position then swap Q4 for Q1.

#18 3 years ago

Have run out of time today to re-do the transistor readings, will try for tomorrow mate.

Picture of Player 3 for you.

Can you also confirm these are the resistors please: https://www.rtbb.com.au/product/resistor-carbon-film-1-2k-ohm-1-2-watt/

Couldn't find the transistors on that page though.

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#19 3 years ago
Quoted from jardine:

Picture of Player 3 for you.

Brush clean the top of that board to get all the dust and crap off it.
I don't see anything obvious other than it's been sitting in less than ideal conditions for a long time.

Nope, those are the wrong resistors.

These are similar to what I use. Looks like you get them for AU$4.80 per 100 pack delivered the next business day for free.
https://au.rs-online.com/web/p/through-hole-fixed-resistors/1711691/

These guys may be local to you and have all the parts:
https://www.rockby.com.au/CatresultsSql_12.cfm?Searchkey=100k&stock_no=34908
https://www.rockby.com.au/CatresultsSql_12.cfm?Searchkey=2N5401&stock_no=10795
https://www.rockby.com.au/CatresultsSql_12.cfm?Searchkey=MPSA42&stock_no=17322

#20 3 years ago

Got a chance to test Q4 and Q10 for player 2/3 and 4 displays. Results for you below:

Player 2: Q4 (left) 0.463 (right) 0.500
Q10 (right) 0.485
Q10 diagram 2 (top) .673 (left) .536 (right) .496

Player 3: Q4 (left) .568 (right) .615
Q10 (right) .584
Q10 diagram 2 (top) .854 (left) .594 (right) .559

Player 4: Q4 (left) .634 (right) .642
Q10 (right) .582
Q10 diagram 2: (top) .781 (left) .594 (rigt) .567

Where Q4 or Q10 showed OL in your diagram, that's how it read on the meter.

#21 3 years ago

Your transistor readings don't show any obvious short circuits. But one of them could be failing under load.

On player 3, are you able to swap Q10 with Q12 and Q4 with Q6? This will move the digit drive transistors from the 100,000 digit to the 1,000 digit.

Q4 is the same as Q6
Q10 is the same as Q12
Q4/Q6 are NOT the same as Q10/Q12 so don't mix them up.

#22 3 years ago
Quoted from Quench:

Your transistor readings don't show any obvious short circuits. But one of them could be failing under load.
On player 3, are you able to swap Q10 with Q12 and Q4 with Q6? This will move the digit drive transistors from the 100,000 digit to the 1,000 digit.
Q4 is the same as Q6
Q10 is the same as Q12
Q4/Q6 are NOT the same as Q10/Q12 so don't mix them up.

I’ll have to take it to a tech to do as I don’t have that type of skill unfortunately.

Should I just get them replaced anyway? As I’ll get him to change the low spec’d resistors at the same time.

#23 3 years ago
Quoted from jardine:

I’ll have to take it to a tech to do as I don’t have that type of skill unfortunately.

Should I just get them replaced anyway? As I’ll get him to change the low spec’d resistors at the same time.

If you're ordering transistors with the resistors then just swap for new since they only cost pennies.
If he's a friend that can quickly just swap the current transistors around mentioned in post #21 while you wait for parts, you'll find out if they need replacing.
Don't forget to get all the cracked solder joints redone.

#24 3 years ago

I don't have anything to add to this, other than saying Quench is a rock star!

Carry on.

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