Bowen was announced as the rules maven at spooky years back and not announced as no longer in that role until I think today. So it was reasonable for people to think he'd be involved in the rules for this or any other new spooky title.

Spooky newbie here....do they use backglass or translight?

Would be cool if it was a mirrored backglass of sorts ( shiney knives, lol).

Did R&M BS have mirrored glass? Just curious...thx

Backglass.

UM has the sparkle as well. Nice look

no it's not, given Spooky said Bowen was involved on several occasions. It's the reason I ordered an Ultraman.

Same here Neil, I’m pretty pissed off at the moment about this. I’ve been riding the waves on this pin but this news is a tsunami!

Pinside has so many Drama Queens it’s embarrassing to the hobby!

I’ve played the game, it shoots great. I’ve met the Spooky crew, they truly care and are more passionate about their product than any company out there.

I don’t know if these type of guys are stretching themselves financially, worried about making money on the pin down the line or just perpetual crybabies in general?

RELAX and stop acting like a bunch of whiny little b*****s!

So any code overview by spooky? Maybe I missed it but excited to see the changes made like the knives that are on screen

While I can nitpick most Spooky games, it's too early to be freaking out. Glad I got to play the game at SFGE before the Pinside fearmongering.

Halloween is arguably Spooky's best layout (awesome in general IMO), and as I'm under the impression Luke and Bug/Corwin were at the helm of that (two caring guys with something to prove), I have faith that the rest will ultimately follow.

With this being the largest production, with more resources, it seems reasonable to think the game can get more attention than past efforts.

To suggest this game will fail without Bowen is a slap to the face of the intellect, passion, and hard work that the project does have behind it, which is still a larger team effort.

EDIT: It's also worth noting that Spooky's campy/horror titles have never been meant to appease everyone, yet ever since the FOMO on RZ (when AMH prices were getting crazy), we've seen a lot of people speculate on Spooky games with no love of the theme, that wind up upset that they "lost" money on resale of a game that wasn't for them in the first place.

Wow this Bowen thing is so overblown. We've already seen 2 huge code updates by Spooky - apparently giving a lot of people here what they asked for. More clips, call outs etc... the code is coming along nicely and there's still so much to come.

Come on dudes, give them a break and see what they can cone up with! Passion speaks volumes - I think the finished product will be amazing when you know they will pour so much love and hard work into this thing. It's just really unfair to pre-judge the rules/code when there is much more to be implemented.

I love Spooky as much as everyone here (HWN CE on order myself), but issues like this are partially of their own design.

Most people look at Stern and expect a pinball machine to spring to life fully formed with code and assets like Athena from the head of Zeus.

Spooky's model is more like watching a crew build a Frank Lloyd Wright building. Lots of WTFs and confusion, excitement and disappointment, until the final product takes shape and you can see what it actually is. So you have to be prepared to swing with the highs and the lows.

I never expected folks like Bowen or Scott (or even Eric) to be there full time. I always assumed they were "contracting" for the lifetime of a given game, since that's how Spooky does things, one game at a time. So he's not "contracted" for this game.

It's okay if they choose not to take his advice, as not every game needs to play like a tournament game say, and that's fine.

The only thing that concerns me is that Bowen says, "I no longer work with Spooky". Does that imply "bad blood" or something? That's my only real concern. If Spooky cannot retain proven talent over time (Scott, Bowen, Eric), then that's a real problem. I'm not suggesting they haven't, as folks might come back for contract games in the future. The thing is we just don't know.

So I don't think it's worth freaking out about just yet. Give it time and let's see what the building looks like when it's done.

Absolutely agree. I’m bummed Bowen isn’t a part of Spooky any longer, but that’s none of our business. I don’t believe for a second that anybody bought this game specifically and *only* because he was involved. Sure, R&M is great, but the overarching thing to consider is it’s the same company putting this game out.

I do hope that Spooky doesn’t just take every suggestion and throw them in. Some random person on a website throwing out rule ideas does not necessary translate to a better game. These guys have been planning things for months. Even early buyers have only had a couple weeks (in between their day jobs) to play. Let’s see how it settles

I know nothing about it (and do see the issue of Spooky saying Bowen is on board early on), but even if you're right, if I were in Luke and Bug's position, I'd want to keep the creative direction to myself and ignore the noise until a fleshed out first draft materializes.

Without a greater explanation, one could read into Bowen's language as ego getting involved after not seeing his ideas implemented (he may have greater experience, but it's not his game).

More than one great idea can exist, and only those at the heart of it really know where it's headed, and I'm sure they'll consider suggestions where it makes sense to their vision.

Ah bummer 1.02 down and 1.03 coming soon it says.

SpookyLuke can you chime in and put this to bed?

Stop hitting it there?

Like most things, I see both sides of this coin, and I don't think we know enough to judge either one...

Bowen is a great player, but do any of us know how good he is at writing rules? I honestly don't know where Bowen ended and Eric began with R&M rules. I think Bowen was always "contributor" to rules, not the sole/primary rules guy, but I could be wrong. To me his involvement would definitely help HWN/UM as tournament games, but I honestly don't know if he himself is responsible for making fun rules the way we think of Lyman, Elwin, etc.

That said, to suggest that HWN/UM will turn out amazing because Spooky will pour their heart into it doesn't make sense either. Sure they're passionate, but are the current rules guys any good at it? For better or worse, we don't know. If you hired me as your art director, I could try harder than anyone in the world, and operate every moment with passion out the ass, but it doesn't mean I could will the game into looking better than a kindergartener. That's not where my talents are, and we don't know yet whether Spooky's talents are in the rules dept. now either.

To suggest that this game has to be good because it's the same company that made R&M is like saying Munsters and <insert Elwin game> have to both be amazing because Stern made them both. Same company, different employees, different skills, different results.

Are concern and questions appropriate? Yes
Do I wish Bowen were still involved? Yes
Are people over-reacting by dumping their games upon the Bowen news? Absolutely

As much as everything with Spooky code feels like amateur hour at the moment (bricking machines, video-clip-gate, "Bowen consulting on rules" but not really, etc.) you need to settle in for the long haul on any Spooky game before you know where you'll land. There's enough red flags with the personnel on this one to suggest it's more likely to end up like RZ than R&M, but I'm not pushing the panic button yet, and nobody else should be either. Guarded optimism or hopeful concern would make sense, but we all know Pinside doesn't operate like that. So I guess that means the sky is falling.

Typical Pinside. Can't think of a single game/ company that hasn't experienced this type of scrutiny...feels overblown as the game seems to be progressing nicely, but just my opinion, and don't have my game yet for input beyond that.

Really very simple...if this is a deal breaker for you, release your spot, sell, whatever, and move on. This is just Pinball.

Not nearly as satisfying as finding a new angle to devalue their effort though I suppose...

Well put, and summarizes things quite well ( though I actually like MunstersLE, lol)

Just talked to the shipper. #80 loaded on the truck a bit late, but on the way now and should be here in two days. Looks like Spooky is working into the 90s and then triple digits.

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Fair assessment, I do think the game is coming along nicely and I agree that it’s foolish to dump a spot because Bowen is not consulting and even more foolish to sell a spot because of early code. I personally bought the game because I like the genre/theme, the artwork is incredible, the layout is unique and looks to shoot well, and Spooky is passionate and wants to put out the best game they can. The Bowen consulting to me felt like a nice safety net. I’m sure we’ll find out what happened with that but yeah, it is most certainly not the end of the world.

Exactly, nobody knows and it's not really fair to assume that this happened under negative circumstances. If they want to tell the story, they will, but they shouldn't feel OBLIGATED to do so over a bunch of whinging.

Has anybody who had theirs brick, successfully update to new code yet?

I’m not sure it can be considered “whining” to expect companies to keep their word or inform their customers who have paid deposits. This is rare for Spooky as they are the most honest and upfront of all of the pin manufacturers. I’m sure something happened or choices were made but…I’m definitely interested as to why Bowen is not consulting any longer.

Exactly this - I mean the dude made it a point to come in to this thread and publicly announced he had no involvement. And it is considered "whining" to ask why and what happened with customers paying upward of 9k+? No.

These are nonrefundable deposits….deposits timed to be offered with only 20 or 30 seconds of game released. Spooky representations were certainly relevant. Theme and artwork can be killer, but ultimately the game also needs to play well for me to justify 9k and limited physical space. Still rooting for that to happen.

I guess some people expect you to have blind faith in the process when paying 9k for a pin...

That the pinball gods are looking over you and the 9k you spent. Lol

.....

This is exactly how the entire industry has operated for over a decade at this point. ESPECIALLY with code. I don't recall Lyman coming on here and pumping up Tron, AC/DC, Metallica.....and those games all had extremely substantial updates well after release.

Not a single one of you has ever bought a NIB *at launch* and been told, or innately known, what the whole story would be as far as rules or code goes.

You talk about great talent here..Proven talent..

What proven talent is Spooky throwing at this machine?

True, this sort of thing NEVER happens in pinball.

Signed,
CGC and Cactus Canyon Remake

I couldn’t agree more. STFU and let the game progress as all pins do. I look to the forums for information and entertainment but now it’s just BS. I pre ordered a CE so I have money in this as well. I’m not concerned in the least. I purposely did a later number so things would be more complete and the bugs worked out by then. If you’re not prepared for some bumps along the way with an early build then you’re in the wrong hobby. These Spooky guys seem incredibly passionate and really care what people think unlike some of the other manufacturers. This reminds me of when I bought STh early on. People couldn’t stop hating on it now it’s in such demand you’re lucky to find one at a decent price. Sit back..relax and enjoy the ride. I’m confident it will be worth it in the end just as long as they put in a “ totally” mode of some sort. Lol!! ; )

Gotta say its nice being relatively new to the hobby and naive... Frankly, I don't care who does what as long as the end result is a fun immersing game that plays well.

The first 3 CGC release. Godzilla, while not complete, is a very realized product. I know Spooky is a smaller operation, but if your going to charge me comparable pricing I am going to expect comparable product. That was my mistake for not realizing that would not be the case from a code perspective (could have done more research). The game has the potential to be great, but I would rather not pay huge money on future promise.

Which matters...how? People complained that the code was barebones when it came out. Hell, even the final product of Tron isn't particularly deep or interesting, but it fits the game. I've owned it twice, and played it so much on location that I'd gotten to Portal well before I owned it the first time.

We deal with the prices of the time. Do you think it's comfortable for me to spend 8000 on Ultraman? Trust me, it's not. At all. And I'd say there's about a 30% chance that I end up having to forfeit my game to someone else.

Having higher expectations because the prices have increased is a logical fallacy. It's already been demonstrated over the last few years that's simply NOT going to happen. There's nothing quantitatively "better" about Godzilla or Ultraman or Halloween because they're pushing 9k, it's entirely subjective. Mechs are still going to break, code is still going to be unfinished in a lot of people's opinions, and playfields are still going to wear and dimple. If someone chooses to not learn from history, I don't know what to say there......but again.....Pinside proved with JPOP and Deeproot that most people here have absolutely no intention of rubbing a few brain cells together to see the obvious.

Those are not new games. We might have something new in Cactus Canyon with Lyman doing new code, but yeah sure...you're TECHNICALLY correct.... just on an irrelevant point because they're remakes of existing games, not new product. The only real question mark there was "will it play the same" and "what's with this HD dots thing?" (Which, just let me say, they've done an amazing job with redoing the DMD graphics in a modern pixel style across the board.)

*edit* You guys can make your own decisions. We don't have to agree on it, but I personally feel it's way over the top knee-jerk to sell your place just because of this specific issue. You don't have to listen to me, and I'm sure most of you won't. My suggestion is this: If you're in these two games to potentially turn them later.....get out now, while you can. If you're in these games for the theme, or the unique layout.... I don't think there's much to worry about here. I have faith in Spooky to get this done to a satisfactory level. Is my faith misplaced as a first time buyer from them? I guess we'll see. Maybe you'll be the ones laughing at me in a year. Who knows.

I see nothing wrong expressing concerns on this thread about Spooky's product. Companies should get feedback and pinside is a great place for owners to come and get a pulse on their product.

Who knows, maybe they will evaluate what is said on here and take action. Maybe not.

But I think Spooky listens and makes some changes based on what is said here.

There is more than just one use for Pinside.

The phrase you quoted vanished ( shocking).. Doesn't have shit to do with anything being discussed.

" Blind Faith" , " proven talent" statements/ questions? Got to be f'**king kidding me.

You are spot on, as are many others. Unbelievable ( actually normal on here for some time)...

Maybe we can hope the continued nonsense continues, and Spooky will stop posting...is this the goal?

How about letting them finish the game? What has been shown looks great.

Save the "care package, Rev x" (epitome of blind faith) shit for the appropriate thread.

I know its a technicality….but they are also insanely popular. I don’t think it’s entirely irrelevant. People often gravitate to the known. That’s why some people liked hearing Bowen was involved. Your view of things is entirely valid, but not everyone feels the same way. Again, it’s entirely my fault for not doing more research on what to expect in terms of the game out of the box. Hope the game turns out great.

STFU? WOW, THE MASTER HAS SPOKEN..

Unfortunately, that could be the result. I have zero doubt that when SpookyCharlie made that post SpookyBug was on the phone with Bowen discussing rules for Halloween / Ultraman. What their agreement was at that time, we don't really know. If that relationship changed, that's certainly not something I'd expect most companies would disclose immediately.

No one here is wrong for feeling disappointed that Bowen wasn't consulted more. That said, even without that consultation the current code is progressing. In two months we've had two updates already for Halloween and one update for Ultraman. That's pretty amazing. It sure seems like they are continually improving. If the code updates continue at this rate throughout production, the games are going to end up being fantastic.

PS: Digging in your heals on either side of this issue seems foolish at this point.

Hahah it is indeed!

Bowen consulted on ACNC and that game's code is just "okay." Point is: what proof exists that Bowen's presence guarantees a perfect experience?

I enjoyed owning the game (ACNC), but the presentation (lights, sound, etc) always felt a little homebrew-ish and unpolished. Really, that comes down to the coder, who completely disappeared from the ACNC thread after being active and involved.

If I were "in" on Halloween, that's where my focus would be... and is probably the biggest reason I wasn't gunning for a spot when the order banks opened up.

I own both RM and TNA... not Fawzma games... and their polish of presentation feel professional and legit to the level of seasoned manufacturers. ACNC never had that.

For what it's worth that phenomena isn't limited to pinball. Back in the day there was a video game forum where actual developers posted and over time the same thing happened. People hated on them, hated on their games, hated on their pricing, hated on their policies, just endless hate. Result was the inevitable, the developers simply stopped posting and fled the forum. I wouldn't be surprised at all if the same thing happened here because why bother posting with info and insights when you'll just be hated on. Plus at some point it can actually become an employment issue if a thread/post you are involved in spirals negatively out of control against the company you work for.

EVERY company has to handle feedback, good or bad. Good companies confront and answer it.

Spooky is praised for their approach of transparency thus far.

Nobody on this thread is bringing pitch forks and torches to the thread.

Just expressing their hopes and concerns.

Everybody wants Spooky To succeed and do awesome.

What Spooky has done great in my eyes is create left-field, risky layouts that are exciting to me and unique in a collection. RZ could have better code, and I've expressed concern over Fawzma on several occasions, but RZ is bolted to the floor for the theme, animations, callouts, and crazy pop/sling action that are all some of the best in pinball IMO. Once I came to terms with the code not getting to where I hoped, I saw the game for the blast it is to play and just have fun--there are plenty of Stern fan layout games with pop-nests, snappy flippers, and tournament worthy code to choose from (many of which are beloved games that were significantly panned early on for code).

$10k is absolutely an expense that I feel, but the reveal was enough to know that I wanted this theme and layout experience in my home (confirmed upon playing). I would hope anyone that can't risk the investment would be able exercise restraint against gambling on day one. We've seen time and time again that these games can be had cheaper second hand before they get to the end of the run.

"Amazing" is subjective, and I'm not expecting anything drastically different from previous efforts, but with this game, I do think Spooky is no longer behind the veil of being a "Bootique" company, and has reason to see this one to a satisfying conclusion.

Agreed.

Also happened here .. note there is almost no (obvious) Stern or JJP presence any more

Yeah but “cool hand Luke” is on the scene .He seems to take it all in stride .He’s a calming figure .I’ll bet we never hear him say “It’s the customers fault”.That still gets my blood boiling .

Ditto. Been playing pinball all my life but just beginning to purchase a few games. Also feel like a newbie from that vantage point. Have played Halloween CE its first weekend (many times over a 3 day weekend visit) in the wild at IO in Madison, WI and again at Crazy Martins in Piqua, OH after the first update. Enjoyed the theme and the game immensely. I agree with John Floyd that I don't care who does what. So far I'm very comfortable with Spooky, their attention to their customers, and my confidence in a terrific game after all is said and done. Everyone has the ability to voice their opinions, but I'm not going to let anyone steal my "joy". Haha. #257 here and looking forward to a probable early new year arrival. Will be perfect for the Michigan winters and a diversion from cabin fever.