(Topic ID: 78125)

Half a switch column out. How do I troubleshoot?

By boneman91

10 years ago


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  • 37 posts
  • 8 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 10 years ago by CNKay
  • Topic is favorited by 5 Pinsiders

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#1 10 years ago

gorgar switch matrix.pnggorgar switch matrix.pngHalf of my Gorgar switch column 5 (the green-black wire) has quit working. Switch 33,34, and 35 do not work, but switch 36-40 work just fine. I have checked all the wire attachments to the all the switches in the column, and they seem okay. Nothing disconnected or weakly soldered.

Now I am a complete idiot with electricity. But I figured that if I ran a jumper from one of the green-black wire switch connections up stream that I know is working, to one of the switches downstream that is not working, then this jumper should bypass the troublespot and allow the downstream switch to work again. This did not happen. I tried all permutations, connecting each working switch to each nonworking switch, an never got one to work. I'm guessing this concept is flawed, but if it is, how else can I trace down the problem? Any help would be greatly appreciated.

#2 10 years ago

I should add that I have replaced all the boards, to include a rottendog combined MPU/CPU board, a new pinside power supple and a Kehout sound board. connections to these boards have all been checked and seem fine. Thanks.

#3 10 years ago

The only way you can get a partial row or column failure is a wiring problem under the playfield. The switches before the problem will work and the switches after the problem will not work since they're daisy-chained. Use switch diagnostics while following the wire downstream and closing each switch (remember the manual will give you the wire color) until you find the point where the switches quit working.

Somewhere between the non-working switch and the last working switch the wire is broken or there's a bad connection. The usual problem is a wire has become broken at the solder joint on the switch, which can often look like it's still connected so you should gently tug any suspect wires.

Don't forget that a wire can break internally. If you can't find it visually, you'll need to use a DMM to check continuity.

#4 10 years ago

Do you have a meter?

#5 10 years ago

Thanks for the info Wayout. I pulled on all the wire connections and they seemed okay. So I figured a wire was broken iternally. I thought that by using the jumper I could sort of "replace" the wire section between the switches I connected with the jumper, and that way find out where the wire break was. That scheme didn't work out though.

Vid, Yes, I do have a meter but still learning how to use it. I'm gonna go look up how to check continuity now.

#6 10 years ago
Quoted from boneman91:

Yes, I do have a meter but still learning how to use it. I'm gonna go look up how to check continuity now.

Did you run the built in diagnostic switch test first?

Read on how to check a diode.

Remember the wires are daisy chained from one to the next. Start with the switch before the bad ones.

#7 10 years ago

Will read about diode testing, thanks. I did not try the diagnostic switch test first. I'll try that to see if anything else goes wrong. All the switches worked fine on switch test mode before they quit working. These switches quit working when I foolishly tried to clean up the GAR drop target bank (should have left well enough alone). I must have screwed up a wire or connection somewhere, I just can't find it. Hopefully testing continuity tomorrow will point out the problem.

#8 10 years ago

Yea vid1900 is spot on here. Each of those switches share a column wire. A meter in continuity mode will beep when you touch the leads. It should also beep when you touch the two of the column blades on the switches. So test each switch on the column starting from a working one. Find which one beeps and which doesn't. When you find one that doesn't beep trace the wire and you should find the break.

#9 10 years ago

If you were messing with the target bank, look if you bent a nearby diode so that it is making contact with some other connection.

Look for a cracked diode too. Give 'em all a little tug.

#10 10 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

If you were messing with the target bank, look if you bent a nearby diode so that it is making contact with some other connection.
Look for a cracked diode too. Give 'em all a little tug.

So if it were anyone else, I would say no way to this. But you know more than I do so I'll ask as a question. So how could a cracked or bent diode cause the rest of the column to be out? I can see it causing more switches to be *on* but not dead / off.

#11 10 years ago
Quoted from markmon:

So if it were anyone else, I would say no way to this. But you know more than I do so I'll ask as a question. So how could a cracked or bent diode cause the rest of the column to be out? I can see it causing more switches to be *on* but not dead / off.

The matrix strobes each column in sequence, pulling down column 1 and checking all of the rows, then strobes column 2 while checking all of the rows, and so on. This sensing happens at a rate of 500 reads per second.

By cycling through each column sequentially, the system can differentiate between the switches in each column while the rows are separated by the blocking diodes. If a diode is shorted, or has been installed incorrectly, the system will get confused since the isolation between switches no longer exists.

#12 10 years ago

Guys,
Thanks for all the quality information. Unfortunately sleep and work (which I must do to gain enough coin to feed my rapidly growing pinball habit) has intervened. Will be trying all these suggestions tomorrow, and will report back. Thanks again!!!

#13 10 years ago
Quoted from wayout440:

The matrix strobes each column in sequence, pulling down column 1 and checking all of the rows, then strobes column 2 while checking all of the rows, and so on. This sensing happens at a rate of 500 reads per second.
By cycling through each column sequentially, the system can differentiate between the switches in each column while the rows are separated by the blocking diodes. If a diode is shorted, or has been installed incorrectly, the system will get confused since the isolation between switches no longer exists.

Very cool. Thank you.

#14 10 years ago

Okay, I tried testing continuity. I can find no breaks. I have a radio shack DMM that says "short" if the circuit is closed and "open" if it is not. Everything says short. It even says short if I touch one switch on switch column 5 and one switch on some other switch column. Does that make sense?

Then I tried testing diodes. Following the instructions in my manual, i get good readings of every diode that goes across one of the lamp sockets, but if I use it across diodes on switches I get zeroes in both directions. And this is on any switch, not just the one on the suspect column.

I then ran the built in diagnostics. On the switch diagnostic, nothing registered as a stuck switch. When I ran through each switch, the diagnstic program quit testing switches before every switch was evaluated. I think it went up to switch 34, then reset and started over agian at switch 1, instead of going through all 43 switches. But when I turned the machine on, those overlooked switches worked just fine on the playfield. Now while I was testing these switches, my player 1 display often displayed various numbers, but I'm not sure what that means. My Gorgar instruction manual mentions nothing about any numbers in the player 1 display.

Anyway, I'm confused and a bit disheartened. Should I just try soldering a replacement wire on to each of the switches in column 5, to replace the green-black wire and its solder joints?

Thanks for your input.

Keith

#15 10 years ago
Quoted from boneman91:

if I use it across diodes on switches I get zeroes in both directions.

Something is not right there. You should not get the same readings in both directions on the switch diodes. Can you borrow a meter with a diode test function?

Testing a Blade/Leaf Switch's Diode.
Testing the diode on a leaf switch is far easier. No wires need to be disconnected, and the switch should not be activated. This technique assumes the switch is wired in the standard configuration: green (ground) wire to the center lug, the banded end of the diode solo, and the non-banded diode lead and the switch wire(s) to the other switch lug (as shown in the pictures below).

Leave the leaf switch's diode and all wires connected.
Make sure the switch isn't activated.
Put your DMM on diode setting.
Connect the black lead of your DMM to the diode's banded side, and the red lead to the non-banded side.
You should get a reading of .4 to .6 on the meter.
Reverse the DMM's leads (red lead to the diode's banded side). You should get a null meter reading.

#16 10 years ago
Quoted from boneman91:

Guys,
Thanks for all the quality information. Unfortunately sleep and work (which I must do to gain enough coin to feed my rapidly growing pinball habit) has intervened. Will be trying all these suggestions tomorrow, and will report back. Thanks again!!!

Simple solution: kill 2 birds with one stone - sleep at work.

#17 10 years ago

Wolf - Tried that. Doesn't work in my profession. I've found patients get pissed off when their surgeon falls asleep!!!

Wayout - My DMM has a diode function and I used it. I did get .4 readings on lamp diodes, and a null reading when I reversed the leads, like I should. But when I tried the diodes on all switches, I got null readings in both directions. I had the machine unplugged at the time, so I assume that the switches are open. I'll go check the actual wiring of the switches in the machine to make sure they are in the standard wiring pattern.

Thanks.

#18 10 years ago

Keith, I gotta admit, I probably would too, if you were my surgeon. but if you told me why, I would understand.
Seriously though, is it coincidence that the diode on switches #33,34,35 all burnt at the same time?

#19 10 years ago

Wolf,
I don't think they are burnt. Ithink I'm not testing things right. All the switches on the playfield give me null readings across their diodes in both irections, not just the ones on switch column five. I'm perplexed. Tomorrow I'm taking a road trip to look at some pins from a guy with a lot of experience with these early Williams machines, and Im gonna pick his brain.

Just noticed you are from New Castle. I lived their as a child, 1968-69, I think, on Martroy Lane! Went to John F. Kennedy Elementary School.

Keith

#20 10 years ago

Wow, small world, I live in new castle now, but graduated from Wilmington Area, then attended westminster.
Is your meter on diode setting, 'cause I don't get those readings either. it should be just like wayout said .4-.6 one way, null or 0 reading the other. Anyway, keep us posted on what your guru has to say.

#21 10 years ago

I'm having a similar issue with a Williams 11a machine. When I test the switch diode (outlane) its tests bad, unless the switch is activated, then it tests good. All the inlane switches diodes test the same this way. if you disconnect the diode, its test good.

#22 10 years ago
Quoted from Imeh:

I'm having a similar issue with a Williams 11a machine. When I test the switch diode (outlane) its tests bad, unless the switch is activated, then it tests good. All the inlane switches diodes test the same this way. if you disconnect the diode, its test good.

The difference of testing is what to expect when the switch is activated vs. not activated. The test is different if you are testing a microswitch vs. a leaf switch, and I have highlighted the step where it is different between each below:

Testing a Microswitch's Diode, without removal.
You can test the diode on a microswitch without unsoldering a diode lead from the switch. This technique assumes the switch is wired in the standard configuration: green (ground) wire to the center lug, the banded end of the diode to the far switch lug, and the non-banded diode lead and the switch wire(s) to the close switch lug (as shown in the pictures above).
Disconnect the middle green (ground) wire from the switch. It should have a quick connector. If the middle green ground wire is soldered to the switch, ignore this test and do the above "fail-safe" diode test.
Put your DMM on diode setting.
Connect the black lead of your DMM to the diode's banded side, and the red lead to the non-banded side.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Activate the switch.<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
You should get a reading of .4 to .6 on the meter.
Reverse the DMM's leads (red lead to the diode's banded side), and keep the switch activated. You should get a null meter reading.

Testing a Blade/Leaf Switch's Diode.
Testing the diode on a leaf switch is far easier. No wires need to be disconnected, and the switch should not be activated. This technique assumes the switch is wired in the standard configuration: green (ground) wire to the center lug, the banded end of the diode solo, and the non-banded diode lead and the switch wire(s) to the other switch lug (as shown in the pictures below).
Leave the leaf switch's diode and all wires connected.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>Make sure the switch isn't activated.<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Put your DMM on diode setting.
Connect the black lead of your DMM to the diode's banded side, and the red lead to the non-banded side.
You should get a reading of .4 to .6 on the meter.
Reverse the DMM's leads (red lead to the diode's banded side). You should get a null meter reading.

#23 10 years ago

Hey wayout-
That is some good info about the micro vs. the leaf diode check, is that because the micro is a NC switch? And is Imeh's outlane switch on his system 11 a micro or a leaf?

#24 10 years ago

They are micro switches. All connections are soldered. I,m sorry but what is the fail-safe method you are referring to ?

#25 10 years ago

Fail-Safe Diode Test.
With the game off, use your DMM set to diode position. With the black lead on the banded side of the diode, you should get a .4 to .6 volt reading. Reverse the leads, and get a null reading. If the diode test bad, cut one lead of the diode from the switch to remove it from the circuit, and test it again just to make sure the diode is really bad. Reconnect the diode after testing, or replace it if bad.

#26 10 years ago

Ok, that is what I did. When wired to micro switch, it reads bad unless switch is activated, but when it is disconnected it reads good. I assume this means it is good?

#27 10 years ago

There is either a break or a bad connection on your green black wire between 35 and 36. If the diode is bad it will only effect the one switch. Electricity is just like a blood vessel, it flows until there is a clog (break in the wire.)

#28 10 years ago
Quoted from donjagra:

There is either a break or a bad connection on your green black wire between 35 and 36. If the diode is bad it will only effect the one switch. Electricity is just like a blood vessel, it flows until there is a clog (break in the wire.)

and most always take the path of least resistance.

#29 10 years ago

Further frustrating follow-up. The "Guru" I saw yesterday wasn't any help.

I think my switches are not wired the same way that wayout uses for his diode tests. Here are a few pictures.

So in an effort to root out the cause of the problem, suspecting that there must be a break in the wire somewhere, I proceeded to replace the greenblack wire of column 5 with some wire I bought at Home Depot. No change. I even replaced some of the green-black wire onto switches that were working previously just to be sure. No change, the switches that worked previously still work, but 33,34, and 35 still do not.

I then took a new diode and laid it across each switch connection where the existing diode is, being sure I had the diode in the correct orientation. Nothing.

I'm so frustrated I'm ready to tear the whole thing down and part it out.

Any body have any ideas? The only thing that is different is that I think the machine uses 18 guage wire and I used 16, since that was the smallest I could get.

Thanks,
Keith.

gorgar switch 1.jpggorgar switch 1.jpg gorgar switch 2.jpggorgar switch 2.jpg
#30 10 years ago

"Wayout - My DMM has a diode function and I used it. I did get .4 readings on lamp diodes, and a null reading when I reversed the leads, like I should. But when I tried the diodes on all switches, I got null readings in both directions."

That is just wrong. You should really concentrate on the switch issue and really try to do exactly what folks are trying to carefully tell you. As a lot of times you can not test a diode in circuit. With Lamp in parallel with diode you should get a reading in both directions. switches should be the easier of the two. situations. In diode test your meter is outputting a small current and reading the voltage drop or turn on voltage for that diode. DO NOT test diode or ohms with machine on. ONLY Voltage and Amps with machine on.

Funny it seems like a ton of problem start with I put in this aftermarket board and ......

#31 10 years ago

Don't start replacing wiring please. They would consider that a shotgun approach which has good chance of going very wrong.
Try a couple things, take notes and if you feel stressed call it a day and have a drink. Try again the next day.

To me troubleshooting is fun, it is a puzzle. But that is just me. You might just be a player. RELAX

Oh thick smaller number wire can handle more current before melting and thinner higher number wire can handle less current. So 16 gauge is actually thicker than 18 and can handle more current.

#32 10 years ago

I do agree win CNKay, don't replace wiring until you have actually CONFIRMED that there is a missing connection because of that wire. Conductors can break within the insulating jacket, but that is really rare. Usually only with really really old games where that section of wire has been flexed.

A brief story, I have worked a some games and a few of them are Williams sys 11s so I am fairly familiar with switch problems with them. To make a long story short, I was beating my head against the wall for a long time with a switch problem with F-14 Tomcat before I solved it forever. I had a target that would suddenly give me game startup or switch test error. I went 'round and 'round with this. It was intemittent and would work fine for weeks and then would begin to fail. Usually when I had guests over. I had already replaced the diode. I had already check and replaced other diodes and wiring. Eventually I pulled the target out itself. The stupid contacts were registering a short with my meter out of the game. There was no rhyme or reason for it - I wanted to dissasemble the target and fix it. Unfortunately, the target switch contacts are separated by nonconductive plates and the whole mess is riveted. I ordered a new target switch, installed it, and it has been 100% perfectly operational since.

I am not saying this is your problem. I am merely saying you need to have a lot of patience, troubleshoot the heck out of the machine before you give up, and weird s%@! happens to all of us at times. It may be hard to troubleshoot your game when you are right there next to it, but for us folks helping others online who are not with your game it's that much harder. Don't part it out, hang in there...converse with folks and eventually it will get solved. A switch error is no reason to scrap a pin.

#33 10 years ago

OK so from your original post it sounds like you are having issue with 4 Target, Right outside rollover and E rollover.

Look on pinwiki: http://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Williams_System_3_-_7#Switches

#34 10 years ago

So here's what I've done so far:

1. Walked a way. Had a bourbon.
2. Read all your posts, and thank you.
3. CNKay, still don't understand what you mean about the diode test. Do I need to disconnect the diode and just test it out of the machine?
4. Found the problem, I think. Thanks to CNKay, I read the pinwiki post and went through the switch matrix test. Turns out column 5 and column 6 don't work at the board. AS I test up I get a reading for switches 1-32, but 33-44 will not register. In my defense for not considering a board problem before, please accept the following two excuses:
a. This is a brand new Rottendog combined CPU/MPU board which tested fine when I first put it in the machine.
b. Several switches from column 5 work when the game is on: the jet bumpers and the right kicker. Looking through my manual however, these are all special solenoids. Could that be why they fire when triggered on the playfield? That must be it, since I notice now that they do not add to the score when triggered.

So, what should I do with this board? I'll call Jim at Rottendog this week and see if he has any suggestions. I've tried to measure across the little yellow guys, which I think are resistors, but not getting anything on the ohm meter.

Here are pictures of my multimeter and the section of the board where the switch matrix attaches.
Thanks for any input.
multimeter.jpgmultimeter.jpg rottendog board.jpgrottendog board.jpg

#35 10 years ago

Well, that does make some good sense that the other columns are out. As it is a new board, it should work. Start by unplugging everything on the board. Then get the manual, turn to the schematics page in the back that shows where the wires are supposed to be plugged in, and then plug everything back in. Let's assume that something didn't get plugged in properly before we start assuming that there is something wrong with the board. (There might be something wrong with the board, but let's not start there.)

3 weeks later
#36 10 years ago

Those are all caps the little yellow things. all marked like C104 C103. NOT resistors.

#37 10 years ago
Quoted from boneman91:

3. CNKay, still don't understand what you mean about the diode test. Do I need to disconnect the diode and just test it out of the machine?

Don't remember know what the heck i posted. Well yes to test diodes across coils, you have to take at least one end off. And well it depends where they are in circuit whether need to be tested out of circuit. Williams have a diode across each switch. So to test any diode. Put meter in diode function place Red lead on non banded side and Blk lead on banded side. You will normally get reading of .6-.7 volts. If you reverse leads you should get nothing or OL on meter. If meter beeps reads like .002 or something diode is bad. OR OL both directions.

Also for switch issues make sure you did not short switches during blub replacement and such.

I don't believe I knew it was a new board, I can't help at all as I don't know about them and have no schematic.

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