(Topic ID: 108839)

HELP!! I have the same problem with two of my Williams EMs (only one now)

By fotoboy

9 years ago


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  • 38 posts
  • 8 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 9 years ago by fotoboy
  • Topic is favorited by 3 Pinsiders

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#1 9 years ago

Hi folks,
First off, I went crazy and bought 2 Williams EMs from the 60s and 1 from 1970... no pinball experience besides playing, but I figured I'm pretty handy so I'd give restoration a go. Its going alright so far, I have the 1967 Magic City up and limping along, needs some attention, but playable.

Its the other two that have me stumped... both 4 players, Cabaret and Doodle Bug, both very similar machines. After reset, both of them keep clicking on what I think are the same two relays (in photo).
the two on the left...photo 1.JPGphoto 1.JPGphoto 2.JPGphoto 2.JPG
I am not sure what they do, and I am having trouble mapping them out on the schematics... (M-29) they are in the backbox under score reels on the left side.

I have cleaned and degunked the score reels, so they move pretty well.

I am hoping that because the problem is oddly the same, that the solution will be not too crazy to diagnose or fix.

Thanks in advance for any help.

Post edited by fotoboy: title update

#3 9 years ago

They are the score reel reset relays.

Check all the zero switches on every reel. There are two per reel.

If you manually advance the reel you will see a nylon fork thing drop down at 9 and then rise up at zero.

Make sure both zero switches close at zero and open at one.

You will rue the 16 score reels when it comes time to disassemble and clean them all!

#4 9 years ago

Also in the manual there are tables that list relays by location (playfield, backbox or bottom) and coil type which can be handy for identifying unlabelled relays.

#5 9 years ago

The score reels have a zero position. When they are all at zero, those relays stop chattering and the game continues to reset. One or more are not reading zero. Check the contacts on all score reels when they are at zero and find the ones that are out of adjustment. On WMS of that era, I believe it is the top set of point's on each.

#6 9 years ago

And check for cracked solder joints on the score reel switches. This was a problem on just about every Williams EM I owned over the years.

#7 9 years ago

Be sure the screws on the score reel switch stacks are tight. Always tighten the screw closest to the contact points first, then the one closest to the wires. Do this before checking the adjustment of the switches.

This also applies to the relays but score reel switch stack screws loosen much more often.

#8 9 years ago
Quoted from fotoboy:

cant figure out how to edit that..

Look for the word edit in your first post and click it.

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#9 9 years ago

In the zero position, all three switches on the score reel should be open. Assuming the reels are all zeroed out, pull each one out and look for a closed switch.

#10 9 years ago
Quoted from Pin-it:

Look for the word edit in your first post and click it.

Where did you get that quote from?

Anyway I'm guessing we are talking about the Topic heading, I can fix. Do you want me too?

#11 9 years ago

Yes sorry, i fixed the title...didnt see the "edit" link. Doh.

#12 9 years ago

Cool Fotoboy, now both the REs are clicking, right? are ALL the score reels at zero and staying there?

#13 9 years ago

Wow, awesome response... And I certainly welcome any more experience and tips...

Thanks so much, I will be working on these and will update soon.

#14 9 years ago

Yes, both are clicking on both machines...all of the reels are zeroed and staying... Though admitedly they all (reels) need a thorough going over.

#15 9 years ago

Lets work on one at a time, make our lives easier

#16 9 years ago

Since the reels are stopping at zero, its not likely the zero SW on the reels.

Have a read though this thread, at least the first bit. It’s the same problem, different machine.

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/williams-space-mission-reset-issues#post-1983840

#17 9 years ago

Will do, thanks..."SW"= switch?

#18 9 years ago

Yes SW = Switch
RE = Relay
SCR Motor = Score Motor.

Which machine do you want to work on first?

#19 9 years ago

And wire Colours

Main Colour \ Trace Colour

#20 9 years ago
Quoted from Chrisbee:

Where did you get that quote from?

I guess he found the edit button changed his mind and edited the 2nd post quote not the first one thats where that came from.
The first one is now fixed.

Post edited by Pin-it: edited for content

#21 9 years ago

I actually edited the title, I used SCREAMING text due to my lazy shift key finger.

lets work on Dipsy Doodle... which is (I believe) the one with the blue papered REs in the photo...

#22 9 years ago

Alrighty... the saga continues...

got the switches all adjusted, now she resets fine (or at least ok) but I have a buzzing score motor... a closer look shows me that something was hot (coil?).
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What do you think?

#23 9 years ago

Yes, the motor winding got hot. Does the motor run correctly and is the noise acceptable? As long as the game isn't ovefused and you can handle the buzz, leave well enough alone. Otherwise replace the motor or rewind that coil.

#24 9 years ago

Does the Scr Motor buzz continuously, or only while the motor is turning?

#25 9 years ago

Actually the motor does not run, it buzzes, and while it is buzzing, nothing will score. It does however, run while it is resetting...

#26 9 years ago

On the other machine... Cabaret, she resets now, that worked well, but I have a click click click in the coin door... looking I see the some coin door relay thing making the ruckus...20141109-DSCN1185-413.jpg20141109-DSCN1185-413.jpg (the machine is activated and playable during this clicking

#27 9 years ago

That coil is the coin lock out coil. It needs to be energised for the machine to accept coins. It is controlled by the scr motor, first cam nearest the motor. It is not needed for home games unless you plan to use the coin slots.

#28 9 years ago
Quoted from fotoboy:

Actually the motor does not run, it buzzes, and while it is buzzing, nothing will score. It does however, run while it is resetting..

Interesting, the Scr Motor can be started by a lot of REs, then it keeps running by its own hold SW.

Thinking that you may have a dirt SW on a RE. start a game, then systematically score points. for the scr motor to operate for points, we need to score multiple points like 500 or 5000, this is when the Scr Motor is required. what you are looking for, is a situation that the scr Motor does not operate, just buzzes.

#29 9 years ago

Not sure what you mean here ...So, on the Dipsy Doodle (stuck SCR Motor), what I am looking for is a multiple score click, that doesn't work? Making that the potential offender?

#30 9 years ago

When you score point like 1 10 100 points, the scre motor is not required, but to sore say 50 points we need to cycle the scr motor to fire the 10 points RE 5 time. You said the scr motor works for the reset cycle but only buzzes other times, we are trying to find when it is bussing and what happened to start it.

#31 9 years ago

Oh Kay... the plot thickens (and heats up). I cannot get anything to score except the tens. The multiples (50, 500 etc) are not obvious and seem to be bonuses triggered by who knows what.

but... my sharp sense of smell picked up a heated electrical pinball aroma (arent they delightful) after unplugging EVERYTHING I investigated and found the culprit...
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I think this is something normally attached to a bell in the back of the cabinet. Any thoughts?

#32 9 years ago

If that is the Chime Coil, then the reason it would get hot is if the 100's or 1000's RE was stuck on.
Locate the to above RE's and see that they are not mechanically stuck, then then on the machine and see is one energises straight away. You may want to disconnect that burnt coil first.

If one of the above coils are stuck on when powered up, turn off the machine, you don't want to burn more coils.
Then look at all the related scores on the PF (play field) to that stuck coil, your looking for a stuck SW.
Do you have a DMM and can you use it?

#33 9 years ago

DMM--Digital Multi Meter, yes and yes. What am I looking for with it though?
thx

#34 9 years ago
Quoted from Chrisbee:

That coil is the coin lock out coil. It needs to be energised for the machine to accept coins. It is controlled by the scr motor, first cam nearest the motor. It is not needed for home games unless you plan to use the coin slots.

Hey Chrisbee, does that mean I can disconnect it? or close the switch on the first cam?

#35 9 years ago
Quoted from fotoboy:

DMM--Digital Multi Meter, yes and yes. What am I looking for with it though?
thx

DMM, correct - Sorry about the short hand, but your getting it.
You can disconnect the coil lock coil if you like. If you have the coin units in, the coins will go to the coin return if the coin lock coil is off. Please don't cut the wire to disconnect, de solder one wire from the lug of the coil and tape it up. One day someone may like it working again.

#36 9 years ago

Have you found the 100's and the 1000's REs yet? (Relays)
if so are they on?
If the 100s RE is stuck on look for a stuck PF SW that score 100 points. {Play field Switch)

1 month later
#37 9 years ago

Hey folks,
so sorry that I put two machines on one post, I am going to put the Dipsy Doodle machine on a different post from this point... thanks so much for the help.

As for CABARET... we'll continue that one here (unless someone has a better idea)
I de-soldiered the coin lock out coil (good idea btw) and now althought there is no twitching in the door, the starting motor still runs (oops)

So, i have a run on starting motor... (I have checked once the zero switch on the score reels)

Any help would be great...thanks in advance...

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