(Topic ID: 261353)

Haggis Pinball defeats dimpling and pooling with sledgehammer test


By FalconPunch

54 days ago



Topic Stats

  • 100 posts
  • 58 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 29 days ago by markp99
  • Topic is favorited by 12 Pinsiders

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    There are 100 posts in this topic. You are on page 2 of 2.
    #51 54 days ago
    Quoted from freeplay3:

    I think I want a Haggis pinball shirt.

    FYI - they don't rip even with a 18" machete! Nice job Haggis!

    #52 54 days ago

    Great stuff! I didn't realize there were so many titles with similar construction. I know the Hyperball playfields I have had held up really well, and those took a pretty good beating.

    Looking forward to the success of Haggis pinball!

    Chris

    #53 54 days ago

    I wonder how the sharp edges of the acrylic will hold up, especially in the outhole and gobblehole areas. Seems like those would be ripe for chipping as the force from ball hits will be very concentrated along a sharp edge.

    Maybe a small radius on those edges would help distribute the force a bit.

    #54 54 days ago

    Varkon has a playfield similar to this. Great job.

    #55 54 days ago

    Very nice

    One question, is the artwork being printed onto the pf then the acrylic on top? or is the pf now just bare wood and the acylic has the artwork reverse printed onto it? basically like a massive plastic?

    I am also wondering why stern/JJP etc.. have not played with this idea yet? as its a pretty obvious one! Haggis are in a good position to swap to it from the get go. But why not others are they just setup for the old way to much effort to swap? what changes would they even need to make to swap? Have they dolne there own internal tests and found its not as good or something? Just weird why no one else has done this?

    #56 54 days ago
    Quoted from russdx:

    I am also wondering why stern/JJP etc.. have not played with this idea yet? as its a pretty obvious one! Haggis are in a good position to swap to it from the get go. But why not others are they just setup for the old way to much effort to swap? what changes would they even need to make to swap? Have they dolne there own internal tests and found its not as good or something? Just weird why no one else has done this?

    Yes, I had been wondering about this sort of thing for a long time. Wooden playfields made sense "way back when", since good wood was easy to come by and could be "worked" easily.
    Now that we have other materials (that are often less expensive than good wood), why not use them? Is there some reason (other than tradition) why playfields have to be wooden?

    #57 54 days ago

    Well done Haggis. His youtube channel is pretty interesting as it is a day by day blog on how they design things etc.

    The wiring episodes were a little dry though...

    #58 54 days ago

    Python Angelo developed indestructible polycarbonate playfields as far back as Pinbot. There were good reasons business wise that the technology was not used to its fullest potential.

    You can hear him discuss both playfields and translites with Clay Harrell on his podcast.

    Start listening at 1hr 10min - http://www.pinrepair.com/topcast/topcast_42.mp3

    Thanks
    Blake

    #59 54 days ago
    Quoted from mbeardsley:

    why playfields have to be wooden?

    Bally Speakeasy is a good answer as to why. It had a resin playfield. It holds up BEAUTIFULLY, as far as wear goes. But it also warps... badly. Also, the resin playfield builds up a static charge and triggers random switches.

    #60 54 days ago

    Thanks for all the responses all

    Some really good questions and points to be discussed. I'll shoot another video this weekend and we'll try to go through and respond to them all

    Cheers,
    Damian

    #61 54 days ago
    Quoted from RatShack:

    That rolling test rig is interesting. I'd like to see a rig that uses a flipper to launch the ball so it's skidding and spinning across the surface instead of gently rolling.
    Must be a newer generation plexiglass vs what Bally used for Elektra.

    I was thinking they needed to throw a handful of coil dust and rubber bits in there to get more realistic conditions.

    #62 54 days ago

    Looks good. Similar to Mafia and Thunderbirds Playfields. Seems only a matter of time until it becomes industry standard.

    #63 54 days ago

    Have met Damian a couple of times he has so much energy and passion for Haggis its great to see. Maybe a Ned Kelly next?

    -7
    #64 54 days ago

    I don’t know man a video of some hairy dudes love-tapping a thick acrylic block with tools and everybody thinks it’s a “paradigm shift?”

    We’ll see. I’ll be pretty surprised if this ever becomes the “industry standard” but I’ll enjoy watching this play out.

    #65 54 days ago
    Quoted from CrazyLevi:

    I don’t know man a video of some hairy dudes love-tapping a thick acrylic block with tools and everybody thinks it’s a “paradigm shift?”
    We’ll see. I’ll be pretty surprised if this ever becomes the “industry standard” but I’ll enjoy watching this play out.

    Personally not a fan and it's no "paradigm shift", but from a manufacturing and consistency standpoint would make sense. Would save manufacturers a lot of headaches.

    -5
    #66 54 days ago
    Quoted from cooked71:

    Personally not a fan and it's no "paradigm shift", but from a manufacturing and consistency standpoint would make sense. Would save manufacturers a lot of headaches.

    That remains to be seen. Using something besides wood has been tried many times, usually with less than satisfactory results.

    Let’s see this thing hooked up to an actual pinball machine with actual components on both sides and hundreds of games a day on it before we declare it would save, and not cause, headaches.

    As it is, they are not smacking a pinball playfield with a sledgehammer, they are gingerly tapping a piece of plastic art with various tools. Entertaining demo but pretty silly to declare it has any real world relevance to pinball playfields at this point.

    #67 54 days ago
    Quoted from CrazyLevi:

    As it is, they are not smacking a pinball playfield with a sledgehammer, they are gingerly tapping a piece of plastic art with various tools. Entertaining demo but pretty silly to declare it has any real world relevance to pinball playfields at this point.

    OK boomer. Smacking playfields with pinballs is so last year. Tools are where it's at Levi, get with the programme.

    #68 54 days ago
    Quoted from CrazyLevi:

    That remains to be seen. Using something besides wood has been tried many times, usually with less than satisfactory results.
    Let’s see this thing hooked up to an actual pinball machine with actual components on both sides and hundreds of games a day on it before we declare it would save, and not cause, headaches.
    As it is, they are not smacking a pinball playfield with a sledgehammer, they are gingerly tapping a piece of plastic art with various tools. Entertaining demo but pretty silly to declare it has any real world relevance to pinball playfields at this point.

    Fair enough but my guess is if they replicated this as you put it “gingerly tapping” exercise on a traditional Playfield you might see the direction they are headed. My only negative would be this direction was tested with the market with hard tops and Playfield protectors that anyone could use yet most do not like the change. So it seems the options are Change or complain about dimples for eternity.

    22
    #69 54 days ago
    Quoted from CrazyLevi:

    I don’t know man a video of some hairy dudes love-tapping a thick acrylic block with tools and everybody thinks it’s a “paradigm shift?”

    If Stern made this you'd already be on your third hand towel.

    -3
    #71 54 days ago
    Quoted from yancy:

    If Stern made this you'd already be on your third hand towel.

    You guys are very easily impressed is all I’m saying. Get real.

    Enjoy your acrylic block playfields. Gonna revolutionize pinball! Easy to tell from a quick YouTube demo.

    And who is taking about stern? Not me. You are obviously obsessed. As far as I can tell they have nothing to do with plastic playfields.

    #72 54 days ago

    Quite honestly, I'm not sure if this change in playfield material(s) will be better / worse than what is currently being utilized by the larger pinball companies.

    However, I really like that this start-up is already working to find better methods at constructing their product and openly communicating with their prospective customers to gain feedback, suggestions, etc.

    11
    #73 54 days ago

    It is nice to at least see people who are trying to find solutions to the playfield issues instead of just what corner to cut next. I would like to see as much competition in pinball as possible and hope these guys can get it done. My advice would be try to get a great theme for their next release as that is what the pin landscape seems to want.
    Since they are from Australia how about Mad Max........

    822F7E48-D642-423B-B425-7C4D539837A4 (resized).png
    #74 54 days ago

    Tongue and groove Oak, thats the secret. Ha Ha Ha.

    #75 54 days ago
    Quoted from yancy:

    If Stern made this you'd already be on your third hand towel.

    #76 53 days ago
    Quoted from Extraballz:

    It is nice to at least see people who are trying to find solutions to the playfield issues instead of just what corner to cut next. I would like to see as much competition in pinball as possible and hope these guys can get it done. My advice would be try to get a great theme for their next release as that is what the pin landscape seems to want.
    Since they are from Australia how about Mad Max........[quoted image]

    They started on a project called Wraith which looked really cool, dark and spooky with a sort of Swords of Fury vibe to the sounds. Keen to see it happen I hope. This one theme and art wise is not my cup of tea but I hope it does well for them.
    Met the guys one night in a pub pinball get together. Very positive outlook and I hope they do well and offer lots of titles.

    Mad Max would be cool for sure. I just finished my retheme based on Mad Max 1 and have been toying about doing a Mad Max 2 version as well!
    The Fury Road homebrew is looking pretty amazing, serious designing there.
    Ironically the guy on the right in the video is responsible for the Meteor retheme mad max that you can see on YouTube that they were trying to sell but I believe hit legal issues with the man.

    #77 53 days ago

    Great work on this! It's awesome to have people like you in the industry.

    What's the cost on this method vs the de-facto clear applied today? Both in terms of time and BOM.

    #78 52 days ago
    Quoted from JodyG:

    Victory had both silk screened and Vitrograph. Not sure if the others had both as well.

    I’ve seen diamond lady in both versions also. The silkscreen version was not as crisp and the colors were not as vibrant but the Vitrograph version diamond lady I owned was pretty damn nice.

    #79 51 days ago
    Quoted from Extraballz:

    It is nice to at least see people who are trying to find solutions to the playfield issues instead of just what corner to cut next. I would like to see as much competition in pinball as possible and hope these guys can get it done. My advice would be try to get a great theme for their next release as that is what the pin landscape seems to want.
    Since they are from Australia how about Mad Max........[quoted image]

    Something like this?

    #80 50 days ago

    What is this white mar or mark on the Playfield after they hit the PF with the second Hammer?
    Real damage or scuff? Or will it just wipe clean?
    pasted_image (resized).png

    Here's another screen grab after the sledgehammer blow.

    pasted_image (resized).png

    I like the concept otherwise, as it seems to have worked well on those Spanish Interflip pins from the 70s.
    Though the feel of the game is a bit different (faster) then the ball rolling over conventional plywood.

    I would like to see a 1 million roll test using a well used pinball.

    #81 49 days ago

    You can make a protector yourself from 1,5mm macralon (Unbreakable) for every pinball machine that you want.
    no more pooling or dimples or chipping.
    Cost are 20 euro.
    IMG_20200121_235955~01 (resized).jpg

    #82 49 days ago
    Quoted from pinballwil:

    You can make a protector yourself from 1,5mm macralon (Unbreakable) for every pinball machine that you want.
    no more pooling or dimples or chipping.
    Cost are 20 euro.
    [quoted image]

    That does not sound like an easy thing to do at all.

    #83 49 days ago
    Quoted from bobukcat:

    That does not sound like an easy thing to do at all.

    Agreed and if the picture is a representation I will stick with pooling personally.

    #84 49 days ago

    Amazing!! I just love this. A group that is doing it right. Thank you Haggis, we need more of this in the community. Positivity and seeing obstacles as opportunities to improve as opposed to Bandaiding issues to help the bottom line. Cheers!!!

    #85 49 days ago
    Quoted from Yelobird:

    Agreed and if the picture is a representation I will stick with pooling personally.

    Also if you screw posts through it, the plastic will expand when the machine warms up and you'll have ripples everywhere. There is nothing this stuff is going to do to stop pooling if you free float it like a typical playfield protector.

    #86 49 days ago
    Quoted from CrazyLevi:

    I don’t know man a video of some hairy dudes love-tapping a thick acrylic block with tools and everybody thinks it’s a “paradigm shift?”
    We’ll see. I’ll be pretty surprised if this ever becomes the “industry standard” but I’ll enjoy watching this play out.

    There is nothing new about it. Playfield protectors has been around for long. Just make it a little bit thicker and make all bolts etc fit to it aswell to avoid any pooling issues and done.

    The new thing is the clarity, realisation, and also, wich i really fancy, the ikea testing with the moving ball.
    Maybe stern should pick up doing some tests on their new games or atleast play a couple of games, as it is now, is just ridiculous.

    #87 49 days ago
    Quoted from Yelobird:

    Agreed and if the picture is a representation I will stick with pooling personally.

    I dont think that fugly pic is representative for state of the art acrylic cutting, more gary stern doing toe nails.

    Try this

    #88 49 days ago

    Seems like it will definitely cure the 'problem of dimpling' and clearcoat chipping.

    What's the thickness of the acrylic compared to wood? I recall seeing somewhere that combined they're the same thickness of a standard playfield, but can't find where that is now.

    Surely you will be losing some mechanical grip from the screw going into the wood due to the first few mm (at least) of the screw effectively not gripping anything, just passing through a hole in the acrylic - unless you have to use longer screws which could end up coming through the other side.

    Would there be enough grip to hold standalone posts, pop bumpers, etc. without them eventually working lose over time?

    #89 49 days ago
    Quoted from Dr-pin:

    I dont think that fugly pic is representative for state of the art acrylic cutting, more gary stern doing toe nails.

    cant cut polycarbonate with a CO2 laser. You'd need a Yag/Fiber

    #90 49 days ago
    Quoted from WJxxxx:

    Seems like it will definitely cure the 'problem of dimpling' and clearcoat chipping.
    What's the thickness of the acrylic compared to wood? I recall seeing somewhere that combined they're the same thickness of a standard playfield, but can't find where that is now.
    Surely you will be losing some mechanical grip from the screw going into the wood due to the first few mm (at least) of the screw effectively not gripping anything, just passing through a whole in the acrylic - unless you have to use longer screws which could end up coming through the other side.
    Would there be enough grip to hold standalone posts, pop bumpers, etc. without them eventually working lose over time?

    I would expect that any post that is t-nutted to the bottom of the wood playfield would still be anchored that way, they would just need to be longer to pass through the acrylic as you said. Same would be for screw in posts, just make them long enough to compensate for the acrylic.

    #91 49 days ago
    Quoted from epotech:

    cant cut polycarbonate with a CO2 laser. You'd need a Yag/Fiber

    You can but it leaves a yellow gooey edge. The video he showed was oxygen cutting acrylics.

    #92 49 days ago
    Quoted from Yelobird:

    You can but it leaves a yellow gooey edge. The video he showed was oxygen cutting acrylics.

    No you can't poly creates a black burnt gooey mess. A yellow edge is petg.

    #93 49 days ago

    Re thickness in the video Haggis says it reduces the plywood to 9mm to keep everything stock.

    #94 49 days ago
    Quoted from epotech:

    No you can't poly creates a black burnt gooey mess. A yellow edge is petg.

    Black, yellow, blue..... you Can cut it though!

    #95 48 days ago
    Quoted from bobukcat:

    just make them long enough to compensate for the acrylic.

    That would be my major concern, you'd need specific screws and posts - not the standard sizes used by every other manufacturer

    #96 48 days ago

    I have a friend that has around a dozen well maintained pins. Mostly classic B/W with Sterns and a couple JJP mixed in. I’ll typically play 2 or 3 machines when I visit, getting in quality time. His Ghostbusters has a playfield protector. His WOZ may have one as well.

    I can’t tell the difference when playing one of those versus the other games. in fact I usually forget all about it. The only thing that makes me remember is that Ghostbusters has such colorful, vibrant art, and I always comment how good the clear looks on his game. And then I recall it has a playfield protector. It looks like it just came from the factory. And he’s the second owner!

    Maybe if I played a Ghostbusters without a protector side by side with his I’d be able to tell a difference? Possible, but I doubt it. If the Haggis games play like what I’ve experienced, the only difference anyone will notice - versus new Stern’s anyway - is how great the playfield looks.

    #97 48 days ago
    Quoted from HaggisPinball:

    Thanks to Cary for posting the review
    I clarified a couple of points on the YouTube clip, so thought I would add them here as well:
    Hi Cary - thanks for making the video - much appreciated
    Just to clarify a couple of points:
    1. Acrylic layer is 4.5mm (so a little under a 1/4 inch)
    2. The plywood layer is 9mm, so I end up at a standard thickness playfield so standard mechs still fit
    .....
    Cheers,
    Damian

    So if the plywood is only 9mm thick will this give enough "meat" for the screws to dig into without easily stripping the wood? (also realize that there still has to be some room between the screw and the other side of the plywood...)

    #98 48 days ago

    Hi all - thanks for the commentary

    I'm planning on making another video this weekend to respond to a lot of the questions that have been asked, as well as go a little more into the method of manufacture.

    Cheers

    2 weeks later
    #100 29 days ago

    Been following along with interest. Seems Haggis has decided not to bond the Acrylic to the plywood backer board. I get the ease of acrylic replacement, but wonder about mech dust getting trapped in between.

    I am curious about the epoxy bath on the plywood - wonder if this will help strengthen as they hope, or will make too brittle at the fiber level. Did mention they would offer (3?) playfield options. Plywood, acrylic, other?

    Nice to see their innovations!

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