Right...this sounds Iike you doing all the leg work. I'm willing to do the leg work for games I want, I'm not willing to do the leg work for someone I don't personally know that has a bunch of red flags. It's not my time and games though. If he wants to wire me the money and pay me for my time and expenses...MAYBE I'm interested...at this point my time is worth more to me than selling some games I don't need to sell in a high risk way...so there's my worthless 2 cents ha.

Tell him to short some stocks or something to get the extra cash to pay you in full, fuq that noise

Can we agree this is quickly becoming unprofessional?

This is something that frankly should be between the buyer and the seller but was taken public for whatever confidence or otherwise reason needed.

You all are literally borderline doxing someone on a public forum because you don't like the still yet to be negotiated terms of someone else's deal.

I have not spoke to the potential buyer regarding this response but I do know the very generous offer he made that would change minds. I do know that he gave the ability for seller to look him up in one of the most reputable publications available and I do know he has been upfront and honest from the get go. I also know he is willing to negotiate non refundable upfront so anyway.

Personally I'd be out based on a thread about my negotiations before they were even done by seller because ..well.. that seems weird to me but hey. I'm not the collector my friend is.

Well, there you go, Neo. See...nothing to worry about. Start packing up those games. Take off work. Rent a truck. Fill it up with 150 gallons of gas and head out on the 1,300 mile highway just to get there. The money is as good as in the bank.

I dont understand the buyer
If I was buying this collection, I would be flying in, inspecting the machines, loading up and driving very slowly home (very slow with all those neon tubes)

Without reading everything...
Get the cash or bail .

This feels like the situation is getting spun up by the Pinside mob as they are bored.

I would say not to overthink this and to break it down to its component parts (transportation costs/efforts, down payment/risked, etc). Whatever your main concerns are, try to solve for that and work from there.

A few options you can consider:

Price for games only with the buyer to arrange transport (would alleviate your concerns about the time and effort to prep everything).

Use an escrow service with release of payment once delivery is made. (Both sides share the risk and are both protected).

If your concern is that you want more money upfront for your time/to feel protected, ask for it. If the buyer says no, then that is a business decision for you to make.

Didn’t think you’d ever sell all these Neo.

If you must know it is hard for me to travel. I can do it and have slugged many a game in my younger years but have to sit when I play now. Nothing life threatening but it just makes my life harder.

Here are the facts of my offer and you can opine if you’d like or call me unscrupulous or selfish but in fact I tried to be neither.

What I offered was what I felt above market for the games and my guess is he agrees or he wouldn’t be bothering with this. In my offer it was explicitly stated that he deliver the pins. He can disclose # if he wants but I can tell you people won’t be lining up to hit the bid. I’m also fine hiring NAVL or whoever and deducting it from price. He made the decision it was better to drive himself. This was in no way directed by me but was rather elected to avoid shipping costs by him. My offer was I’ll pay you x but you handle shipping. At that point I said let’s figure a number that would make you indifferent if I were to be a bad actor. I assume there is some number that he’d rather keep the deposit and have me back out. I’m not going to back out but if he got to keep big chunk of cash then he is absolved of the risk.

He obviously receives this non refundable deposit cash ahead of time. He also failed to state he wants to hold them until either June or July. So essentially I wire a big hunk of cash and hope he doesn’t do something funny. He’s got a great reputation and does awesome
Work but this amount of money has made other people do funny things. I’m 95% sure I could just wire all of it now but that doesn’t strike me as fair to me. Why take that risk at all if a big enough deposit takes that risk of non-performance away for him. He would only be worse off if he just planned on never delivering and wanted to keep all the money. again I’m 99% sure he is not a bad actor but I’ve seen unethical things before.

I also clearly stated I’m not going to nitpick anything and will pics of the cashiers check for full amount or cash or whatever payment he wants. All I ask is for a video of the exact games before sending deposit and to be able to make sure those are the same games on delivery.

In the old days I would no questions Asked
Just drive over and get them. It’s not a matter of lazy at all. When I was healthier the trip would be an adventure but now it would just be difficult. Again, I am compensating for the trip which he elected to take. I just want everyone to be happy and I think we are both 98% sure the other guy has good intentions. I certainly don’t wish for him to have a bad taste in his mouth as I will need his expertise and parts in the future. That’s why I said pick a number for deposit where you are better off
With non-performance on my end even after a long trip as that’s as close to fair as I can be. Even if I knew him personally I wouldn’t pay for it all upfront unless it was a large corporation. God forbid something bad happens to him on trip or just before July and then good luck to me getting made whole.

Like I said I want him to be happy. The way the story was characterized was accurate but not complete. He was very forthright in telling me he was starting this thread so I don’t think he’s trying to badmouth me but rather just test water of what’s fair. The reason I am disclosing the above facts as well is to see if that changes any opinions. I think all Nemo wanted was honest replies and Although what was said was 100% true I think these additional facts may change opinions or maybe not. Like I told him I just want everyone to be happy and to be fair.

They are legit

A - Post the lot on uShip and you’ll find a shipper at a more reasonable fee. And if you don’t like it, don’t take it. Zero cost (only time) to get the quote.

B - drive it down. You have the means. You could get a flat or in an accident, sure. But you are saving $$$ on shipping. Overall risk is pretty low for a total loss if you know how to drive a rig and/or strap in the games.

Transporting games isn’t hard. Just don’t be stupid. And don’t listen to all the people who scare you. I bet you’ve been in a car/truck hundreds of times and didn’t get in a wreck. And your most valuable asset is you!

Holding the machines till July… that’s unheard of. But it all seems legit to me. Even on the large $$$ deal.

It really sounds like you have a perfect buyer for this. He isn’t in a rush. You know what to do with the games. Just make the deal, do the videos, and include a day of staying over time to help set them up. Maybe he can put you up in a hotel for the night as a gesture of thanks.

Good luck with the deal. Sounds like a winner!

I am exhausted with just the thought of it

uShip? Apparently you haven't read this thread?

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/alert-stolen-pinball-tmnt

find them at a pawn shop months after they are stolen: https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/alert-stolen-pinball-tmnt

Neo, He isn't asking or expecting you to set them up. He just wants someone to act in good faith as I can guarantee he does and will.

It may not mean much to anyone via text but I'd risk my Spooky collection and much much more to vouch for the intentions of the buyer.

Again, means nothing to most but I have #34 RAM and #34 Halloween as a friends and family connection. I'll gladly five these to anyone if buyer acted in bad faith.

Chuck, I've conversed and seen you on here and rather subreddit pinball many times.

I trust you because of that alone. PM me. I'll give you my personal number and send pictures of my gamble/humble collection and then send you buyers collection to boot.

Anyway. I think you two got this. I apologize if I upset anyone here with any sort of big daddy posturing

This really doesn't need to be all that complicated either the two of you come up with terms that work for both of you or just move on. In all honesty I don't think the buyer is asking for too much asking to pay in full once machines are delivered and I can't say that I blame him. On the flip side I do understand the sellers concern about both the risk of transporting these machines & something going south with the deal once he makes the trip.

Bottom line is either figure out a way to make the deal happen that works for both of you or just move on. It really isn't rocket science!

As far as insurance during transport - that is something you would need to research but I would think between the truck rental place & your home owners insurance company someone should be able to help you out with that.

Anyway best of luck getting it all figured out!

LOL at the responses

Yeah, that changes things a little bit.

Probably not a good idea. You have no idea who is actually transporting the cargo, and as the prior incident of game theft revealed, uship pretty much won't do anything if the cargo is stolen.

Neither will likely cover the games. You'll probably need collectibles insurance like collectinsure.com. I've also been meaning to look into americancollectors.com as well.

There are a couple of different ways to proceed. Plenty of shippers like this one have escrow services that they offer as part of what they do. https://freightplus.com/escrow-services/

Then, you have just plain escrow services like this one https://www.escrow.com/.

Both give fairly simplified steps of how the process works.

I think we are getting to the crux of the matter here. You are worried about taxes due to the dollar size of the transaction and maximizing your revenue. Dealing with the second issue first, it sounds like the buyer is offering a flat rate for the games delivered and you are deciding to deliver yourself to maximize your gains. This is a business decision that you have to make. Is it worth your time to pack and haul the games down to FL to make more money? Only you can say. But if you have enough profit in the deal, it might make sense to have a company to haul the games to save you the hassle, which you are concerned about.

Regarding taxes, if you are dealing with a substantial amount of money there will be reporting somewhere that you might have to take into account. If you want to de-risk your transaction, then that increases the probability of you having reporting. If you are looking to minimize that reporting and are looking at something more like a fiat cash deal, then you are going to have to accept more risk.

I think the challenge that you are dealing with is that you agreed to a price before you agreed to the terms of the deal. Now, you are trying to square the circle so you can make the most amount of money within your threshold of effort you want to deal with. I think you have two choices: under the current price, decide how best you want to get the machines to the buyer realizing that you either pay somebody to do it (reducing your profit) or you delivering (maximizing your profit, but more effort on your part). Or, you and the buyer renegotiate a new price to accommodate both of your respective concerns.

Good luck to both you and the buyer. It sounds like you are close on this.

Write up a contract and be done with it. You have to agree on when all the risk passes to you.

It’s too risky for Neo to drive them to you. It’s too risky for you to pay for everything up front and wait. Add stipulations to the contract so both sides are covered.

I know neo offered to drive them, but best you just arrange shipping yourself and agree to the games as is and once the games are on that truck, they are your property.

Bank wire payment for 100% once the shipping arrangements are made.

Done.

Neo if you’re worried about this being a taxable event (it is), then just track all the expenses to help offset the gains you experienced. But you make money, gotta pay tax. Just how it works.

And this is why you don't jump in to post on a thread where only one side of the story if being presented. Wait and see how it plays out.

Lol at the name “RichierRich”.

Here are my thoughts.

I wish I was in your shoes. This would be a done deal. You almost sound like you're trying to talk yourself out of the deal.

You're over thinking things or you're second guessing wanting to sell.

No offense, Neo, but you're a tightwad. If you're willing to sell these, the offer must be BIG. And it's selling 14 at one time and not dealing with 14 different people selling them one at a time. That's HUGE.

Maybe I'm old school and too trusting but I have no issue with the buyers offer. Hell, I'd probably even just take a check from him once the games are delivered. No tax implications if done that way.

You complain about having to prep them all, load and unload, travel time, blah blah blah. Is this 7 days worth of work? Are you making more money doing this or working on playfields?

For me, this would be a hell of an adventure. I've got a couple buddies I know that would come with. They'd probably do it for free but I'd be willing to pay them for their help.

By the time you get home, you'll feel exhausted but you'll have a story to tell for years.

Ten years ago, me and a buddy bought out an operator in Spugis SD. It was 21 games. Drove 10 hours in a rented 27' Penski on New Years Eve day. Took us 5 hours to prep and load the games. Got 5 hours sleep and drove the 10 hours back home on New Years Day. Once home, we had to unload all the games and take the truck back. I slept for 2 days and hurt for a week but didn't regret a thing.

Edit: when you rent the truck, make sure to negotiate the price per mile. The more miles, the lower the price. At the time, the website may have said $1 a mile. We ended up paying half that.

You summed up my thoughts exactly on this. I have done "crazier deals" two that come to mine is bought nearly 50 machines out of NC one week drove from PA to NC moved the 35 machines to storage in NC and brought 15 home with me all in one day. 20 hour day moving 35 machines twice and driving nearly 800 miles. Over the next four days I made two more trips down to NC to bring the rest home. Sorted what I wanted to keep and took the rest to the Allentown show less than a week later.

Less than a week after that I bought another 60 machines from a guy in Norfolk VA. Drove 450 miles one way - paid the guy in excess of $50k in cash - he handed me the key to the two storage lockers and we went into the office and signed the two storage units over to me and then I loaded 15 machines and drove home that same day. 26 hours on the road that time around with about 2 hours sleep in the front seat of my van. But another adventure with great memories.

Sometimes it is more about the adventure than it is about the money or the work involved. Either you want to make the deal or you don't - if you want to make the deal just do it. If you don't want to make the deal just let the buyer know and move on. As I have said several other times in this thread I don't think the buyer is being unrealistic. I am not taking sides I am just looking at things from both sides.

Neo is legit, the other guy seems very legit as well and both seem to have plenty of people who will vouch for them. Under normal circumstances this whole cash upon delivery thing would be a no go, but this is a special case. Its pretty obvious both parties aren't going to screw each other. I guess I understand the being worried about getting into an accident or things being stolen is valid, but still fairly unlikely. If it were me, I'd make the trip and close the deal.

I did once take a deposit on a game and then personally delivered it some time later before taking the rest of the money in person. I did this because A. this was a well known guy in the community, and B. Frankly he took the much bigger risk letting me hold his money for a couple months as a relatively unknown guy. Granted the stakes were much much smaller (one game, 2 hr drive, ect). In the right circumstances I see no issue with the proposed deal. I hope you guys can get it sorted and both be happy at the end!

Now doubt chosen since he owns the Richie Rich pin.

@richierichpin, can you share who you managed to aquire that one?

Very cool that Neo wants to keep the pins for one more party for the locals to enjoy!

Hopefully you guys can come up with an acceptable plan.

I also know the buyer. He is a very serious, legit and nice guy, and is paying a very fair, if not above market price, for the collection.

I've also bought a machine from Neo, know him a little, and trust him too, but I think a $5K non-refundable deposit is very fair with the balance on delivery given the time delay in delivering the games.

You guys should make the deal since Neo is too far way for me to play this awesome collection, and the buyer is close enough for me to come by and play some of the Zac's I've never seen before!

CaptainNeo
Reading your post I see you are flexible.
Heck your willing to take time out of work to deliver?
I would not do that however a simple solution is fly the buyer to you,go to local bank for your money and let buyer rent truck to drive home.
You could even house him for a night or cheap hotel. All of that is cheaper than your two weeks out of work and you have cash in hand,no stress over that.
My .02
-Mike

I think you could have been there by now

Not really outlandish. It's 14 rare titles for a collection. Anyway, I see both sides as I have been involved with this type of deal on both sides. I cannot blame the buyer for anything other than not being more involved. He is lazy(?) or in bad shape(?), but has money. The buyer is in Florida? He can fly into Milwaukee or Rockford quite cheap. Pick him up, let him inspect all the machines AND pay you. You pack them and help load them on a shipping company truck that he pays for. He has them delivered on his dime, his insurance. Otherwise all liability is yours during transport. An accident, an act of God, theft , or any other event and you are out the money and your machines. Honestly, it's the only way to do it. Rockford round trip is about $300 anywhere in Florida. If it were 2 or 3 games. Hell, road trip. But not 14 games on a high dollar collection.

Comments like this really upset me. Now that I am older I fully understand where the buyer is coming from. I really want to go the the Allentown Show to see some old friends but my body is shot and I can't stand for more than a few minutes at a time because of knee and back issues. Five years ago I was dragging machines out of peoples basements by myself and yet 5 years later I have a heck of a time just getting myself up a set of steps.

Please think twice before being so negative towards someone. There is a huge difference between being "lazy" and having health issues that slow you down.

You must have missed the buyers comments.

"I also clearly stated I’m not going to nitpick anything and will pics of the cashiers check for full amount or cash or whatever payment he wants. All I ask is for a video of the exact games before sending deposit and to be able to make sure those are the same games on delivery."

I'd be halfway to Florida by now.

With the exception of a couple of them, every pinball I've ever owned was delivered by the seller and paid for COD. I ALWAYS offer a non-refundable down-payment before they load up the game and deliver it. That way, if there are any unforeseen issues, (which has never happened) I'm only out a couple hundred and the seller is compensated for their time.

I have had a couple sellers insist I come to play/inspect the machine beforehand, which I've always respected and done if asked. I deal mostly locally, so no one has ever had to drive more than 50-100 miles to deliver. I could always rent a truck, but I've found a lot of sellers are willing to deliver with a modest non-refundable down payment and cash on delivery.

Just my experience - (I have had some sellers tell me "no way" that they will deliver without payment in full upfront)

I may can lend a hand, I will send a pm.

I only offer that to "friends" or "friends of friends". Every one of them has worked out great. Just pick who you are doing that for, and you will have fun doing it.

How about "friends with benefits"?

This makes me sad, because I know those days are coming for me, some time in the next 10 years. I’ve always moved, torn down and set up my games by myself. I’m kinda proud to have figured out how to do everything so I’m not asking a neighbor (or god forbid, my wife) for help. But I used to take 6 games to our annual show (SFGE), and then it was 4, and now this is the first year where I’m limiting myself to 1 or 2. I just hope some younger collectors will pick up the torch and run with it.

Start lifting weights on a regular basis. Compound movements like squats and deadlifts. Best way to stave of this kind of decline.
I'm so much more useful as a human being when I lift weights, it's just sticking with it that's tough.

Here is some literature that shows how beneficial strength training is to ageing populations. I went to a seminar with these guys a few years back and seeing a guy in his 50's squat 405 like it's nothing is pretty eye opening.

https://startingstrength.com/article/science-medicine/barbell_training_is_big_medicine
https://startingstrength.com/article/strength-health/strength-training-for-older-adults
https://startingstrength.com/article/strength-health/strength-makes-life-better
https://startingstrength.com/article/science-medicine/losing-bodyfat-or-gaining-muscle-mass-which-is-more-important
https://startingstrength.com/article/science-medicine/physical-training-against-brain-aging
https://startingstrength.com/article/science-medicine/physical_function_and_aging

As recently as 2014 I unboxed Stern Mustang by myself, putting on the front legs then lifting the heavy back end while using one foot to slide a barstool under it. Turning 70 in 2019 I realized I was no longer up to doing that. So Elvira's House of Horrors sat NIB in my game room for months until a friend came over to help me. (At least that gave the clear coat more time to cure.)

Yep, exactly this.