There's a chance every game by every designer could be a turd. I think it will play well though. I can see some Lawlor influence on the pf, so it will shoot well.

The biggest issue is your second point. I don't think gnr has the pull to attract enough big spenders. It would have been a better license for Stern, if that. There are so many other 70s and 80s has-been bands that pretty much everyone can tolerate, like Sabbath, Crue, etc...

We'll, sir, you are supporting my point. I'm only saying gnr will not have the pull that other choices would have. They don't have the staying power of Sabbath or Motley Crue.

Yes, some on here will buy a gnr machine, but I want jjp to sell a huge amount of machines. Imho, Gnr has zero chance of doing so. Avengers, although I hate it, is a way better theme choice. Why take such risks when you're trying to build a company?

Maybe I'll eat my words, but I see this selling in the Wonka range, maybe DI if they're lucky.

I'm in the deep minority here, but my wallet is safe! I dislike GnR, so I was terrified that this game might be the pin of all pins. With regard to lightshow, the CE will be the best to date, and incorporation of assets will be top-shelf.

Not many here are talking about actual geometry and how the game shoots. The videos mostly focus on assets, concept and lighting. Gameplay is absolutely the most important aspect. Short, close ramps can be good, but they can be bad. Also, the spinner wheel is meh.. What else is there in the game that makes you go, "I can't wait to shoot that!"? Single flipper upper pfs have never been that good. The headstocks are cool, but, again, these are aesthetic. I don't even want to get into the art, but I'll say that I don't like any of it, even if I was a GnR fan.

I see a decent pin here--don't get me wrong--but I don't feel like I'm missing much by being on the sidelines. I hope the next game has something crazy and new and focuses more on gameplay.

All that said, I'm happy for all the GnR fans that are getting games. Buy a lot so we get more!

Greasy Gary, hard at work! Go get em, Gare!

Being critical of a product is wanting to watch the world burn?

What is this forum for?

I'm seriously curious: how does this game display the greatest engineering and technology in all of pinball?

No one will know that for years. If this sells really well, Jack will milk it like WOZ and Hobbit. If you wait, you might get a lock of Slash's hair stapled onto his top hat and some sparkles. You heard it here first, from K-man!

I shouldn't, but I'll bite on your logic challenge. To you, it appears to be "the greatest game ever made." The examples you used to support this claim (see your post for the original order and styling) were "incredible use of engineering and technology."

Hell, here it is to save you some trouble:

"Looks like the greatest game ever made, just incredible use of engineering and technology. A new highpoint for pinball on every level."

You're telling me that this game is the best game in pinball history, but your supporting examples are somehow not the best, even with grammatical fragment attached with a comma? "Greatest game ever made, just incredible use of..." ???

Well-defended, my friend... Well defended.

ANYWHO... I'm still waiting... And I'll even rephrase it to make it easier for you: I'm seriously curious, why do you see this as the greatest game above every single machine produced in the history of pinball? And if you'd be so kind, could you also explain how the engineering and technology is "a new high point"? You used "on every level," so this one will be tough to evade...

I never said I didn't like the game. I just dislike the band. I'm asking a pinsider why he/she/they think it is the greatest machine of all time. That's a big claim. I couldn't care less if you or anyone else likes the game. In fact, I'd rather all of you buy one so they keep making great games. I've purchased a NIB JJP machine and will likely purchase more.

I prefer JJP to Stern any day, but this is bullshit. IMDN is incorporated beautifully. The voice work is amazing and the art is killer. What I see from GnR is a focus on lighting and some guitar headstocks. I'll be generous by saying the art is "off," but GnR has never been known for their art. It's all cliche skid art from the 80s. They did the best they could. The game has almost nothing new, whereas IMDN brought in a world champion designer with one of the best PF designs in history.

Oh, and IM being stripped down?? Serious? Two well-placed magnets and and a rising bash toy with multiple switches inside... What does GnR have that even comes close to Monger... Oh yeah, the spinner wheel. Good luck with that.

Again, I PREFER JJP as a company, but the blindness to the lack of "innovation" in this game is startling, even for pinside!

I totally get this argument and generally support it, but I don't think it's fair to ignore the other side as well. IM proves you don't need a ton of coils, but you can still have "neat" or "cool' or "NEW" things to interact with. IMDN is a pretty good example of that as well.

JJP is #2 in the pinball world, so we SHOULD compare it to #1. I don't get the apples oranges argument. They are slowly moving toward one another's approach toward the market.

Stern pulled up its socks because of jjp. JJP let its socks down to become profitable.

Great time to be alive. Love some, hate some, bash some, troll some.... C'mon, it's an internet forum!

Anyone else notice the Wonka/slot machine sounds mixed in? Skill shot is the most obvious. These are polar opposite to the rough edge of gnr... Man, I hope toy story doesn't sound like Vegas.

From soulless piece of crap to this 20 mind later. Day drunks are fun... Oh wait...

Except the Lawlor pins. His layouts are just as good as Keith's, maybe better because they are more friendly to less skilled players. Wonka is insanely good. Better than DI, which I didn't think he could top.

I think the issue that most are having is that there needs to be some basic gameplay before rewards. What is the most loved and played multiball in the history of pinball? I would say Addam's. Why? Well, you have to earn it. There is a long process to get there, and you may not even get multiball every game. When you do, it presents probably the best stop and go moment in all of pinball.

"Now you've done it." Brrrrrrrrrr bbzzz bzzz bzzzz (rumble, rumble) SHOW TIME!

I've played the game, as many of you have, a zillion times, and this never gets old. It's exciting over an over again. Just like nailing jackpots in TZ. The boom and crazy overload of sound and giant JACKPOT on the screen. It's just so fucking satisfying.

GnR has left little room for this. The lightshow is crazy throughout and mulitballs seem to come out of nowhere. It's an overload in contrast.

I've had DILE since it came out (early adopter), and this is one of my big criticisms of that game. The multiballs are full of jackpots without a unified goal. I think Keith (and the coders that work with him) do a better job of balancing unified goals with the new tech. Eg. IMDN super jackpot during trooper gives you an Eddie card.

I'm not a huge fan of Dylan, and I will get some heat for this, but Axl Rose could not improve a single song on this planet, especially by the "guy who can't sing," Bob Dylan.

so am I seeing this correctly? The SE has a stage of figurines, essentially a mini PF with zero interactivity with the ball? Is it also empty underneath? I'm confused...

Did they work with SpaceX, you think?

Let's move on to dimples. Someone get that low angle, with the light just right....

How do you enjoy this hobby with such worries? I admit that manufacturing defects are a concern, but ball wear is... Ball wear. I laugh when I see plastic chunks fly across the pf. That means I'm taking the fun to a new level! Dents mean you've put some miles on your machine, badges of Honor. It's all perspective.

It's a public forum about pinball. Everyone gets trashed on. It's da way things woyks.

I was defending Lawler last week and stating my displeasure about GnR this week. Next week I'll defend dialed in again.

This should be a designer's paradise. They get a free litmus test from the pinball public. Who cares if there are morons who trash games and designers for no good reason?

As for the multiball forever in GnR, how can we shut up about it? The game is brand new, crazy expensive, and will mostly go to homes. I think wondering and pondering about playing Wack-a-wacka-ball instead of what we're used to is a valid concern that I continually want to hear about. If it hurts the designers' feelings, maybe a public forum isn't the best place for them to hang out.

Wonkavision, wonkavator, gobstopper, extremely clever use of SEVEN magnets, captive ball... - insane Lawlor design with combos out your ass... No need for 700 multiballs.

I don't understand your dedication to fighting any tiny criticism of GnR. It has great assets and immersion and some "neat" things like high hats and drumsticks, but it's unlike all previous JJP releases in that it lacks any substantial ball interaction (mechs/toys whatever you want to call them) aside from a second PF and the headstock lock. To many JJP fans, myself included, this sucks. I'll take the mechs over the lightshow and concert footage any day. I'm not playing pinball to look at the screen, and crazy lightshows blind me when I'm playing in my dark dungeon. My DILE is the max I'd ever want for lightshows.

That said, I'll play this on location for sure, but I'd buy Wonka over GnR any day.

Dunno. Ask Skymont. He's been humping anyone's leg who mentions GnR, yet said that R&M needed a major toy.

We'll see how this pans out in about a year. I think you're going to see a lot of GnR's on the second hand market when the "experience" gets old. I could be wrong, but I just can't see it.

There is no way the supposed "LEs" are sold. This game will be more available on the secondary market than DI is. Give it a year. I'd also recommend waiting for at least the second run of LEs if you must buy nib. There will be some issues to iron out. There always are.

Not if the upper doesn't add much, or worse, detracts... Losing the lock would suck though

It's one of two games the wife would never let me sell. TZ and TOTAN. I have my TZ set up steep as hell and toughest rules possible. She can still flip it pretty well, and I can still get 2 LOTZs in one game once in a while. Still kicks my ass most games though. I love the cross referencing too. Stay away from the clock in clock chaos and all the referencing in fast lock. I remember playing a tournament when I had whirlwind. Both games playing the same song at the same time. Epic.

Truth told, the game would get boring without the power ball. It is such a genious part of the game that throws a monkey wrench into your plans. If you get it back into the G machine, you're rewarded with the best multiball in all of pinball. Unlike GnR, you really feel that you've earned that damned multiball, and it is damned special.

meh

The CEs will come way down. Feel free to quote me in a year. The price is so high and the LE looks better. You'll save 1.5 to 2k in a year. That goes for all crazy expensive high production machines, not just gnr. FOMO has driven sales a lot. Great for the company. If you didn't get aCE, relax. You'll probably want an LE when the dust settles anyway.

Yep. One year from today. I'll come back and offer some quotes from the market. Price is way too high to recoup on resale. Gameplay doesn't match assets. No toys.

Sorry for your loss.

There is ZERO hard evidence that half the LEs have sold, and I would think that isn't the case.

I know I wouldn't want to hear it or look at it objectively if I was buying a CE, but price will come down. You guys are forgetting the price tag. The game is 12.5k plus shipping and taxes. You really think you're going to get 13k a year down the road? Of course LEs are going to come down too. There is a huge FOMO going on about the CEs, and if you can't see that, you're blind. Gameplay reviews have been mixed. You can check this very thread if you need proof.

There are a bazzillion LEs available, and as some of you have stated, they will likely come out with a different CE to soak up some more profits. This is just the reality of all NIB, not just GnR. I knew I would eat a 1-2k loss on my DILE. You'll be able to pick up a CE in year's time for a good price, just like all the Stern LEs. It's not the old days anymore where your LE/CE (of almost any game) will appreciate in value. Saturation is upon us as well.

If you don't want to use history as evidence, you're right. Maybe it will increase and/or hold value. If we use history, evidence leans toward the typical loss. Would you be defending this position so vehemently if you weren't buying a CE? I think I'm being pretty objective. I'm not buying the game, but JJP is my favourite pinball company.

You guys are like children...

Shouldn't you be saying that Kaneda expects perfection and he spoke your idea and it reincarnated inside your DNA but you're not him but biologically, but not on pinside, you are?

Pffft. Sounds like you've read or watched "the secret." I consider myself a realist a.k.a cynic (NOT pessimist). Blindly believing things will always be good is just silly. In fact, humans, as all creatures, are motivated primarily by greed. How's that going to turn out?

Very true, but the degree is based on genetics, chemical balances, socialization and education. Our control of our greed variates drastically, and along with our wonderful ability to deny basic instincts also comes the ability to defend the most abhorrent behaviour with many shades of morality. Meliorism is a farce. The evidence is pretty clear.

That works in a world where you just make shit up. Yeah... But... they made more WOZ and Hobbit editions BECAUSE THEY SOLD. The other games have not sold as well. So if we want to look at evidence, instead of --you know-- making shit up, the evidence points to them milking sales if the game sells well. 14k? LOL. Get atta here. I'm assuming you're in for a CE? That would explain everything.

Lol. I've stated clearly that I hate gnr with a passion. I wouldn't buy this machine of it was the best design in history, which it isn't. However, I do enjoy speculating about the pinball market. That CE you're going to buy will lose you money. But hey, I'm going to lose money in my DILE and my imdnLE, and I knew that going in. I just find the denial by buyers humorous. The market is flooded, the game isn't mind-blowing, and it's crazy expensive. Signatures?? Lol

Talking about pinball. I thought that was obvious...

Not true. The donation is very important. Someone agreed to donate $8000 to a charity in order to buy the machine. This person could have easily just bought an LE. Great that the guy donated that much though!

I don't understand this mentality. I don't plan on buying GnR, but I love JJP and pinball in general. Should I stay away from this thread? Should I not join in the conversation about a new game unless I sign a contract to buy it?

It's usually because someone is disagreeing with them. I could argue with Ice all day about PF quality, but I know he will never give a shit. But he sure likes to stoke the fire. "Pffft, just play and enjoy your 10k game that's falling apart." We all get excited by a troll now and then..

That's like saying all w/b are equally similar. Yes, jjps have a feel that they share, but to say that DI is like the Hobbit is a pretty strange argument to make.

Ok. I guess we'll agree to disagree. Many people clearly love gnr and have disliked all other jjp titles. New games are new....

Yep, just like the last pin. And the one before that. Top priority. Big announcement I must have missed.

They will make machines until they stop selling. You have nothing to worry about.

They'll sell for slightly more in the short term and slightly less in the long term.

CE will dip as well. Price is too high to sustain. Won't go down much though. Probably 1k.