I remember it differently. As I recall, Jack was a long time distributor for Stern and he wasn't happy as more and more features were being stripped from the games.
He believed people were willing to pay a premium price for a premium product, and started JJP with that model in mind. I think the introductory $6500 pre-order price for WOZ was about $2k higher than Stern at that time (Iron Man Pro).

I didn't understand why JJP would make another GNR pin with all the other possibilities. After seeing the reveal it makes more sense. What a difference having Slash super passionate about the project and the entire band involved. Looking forward to seeing more gameplay.

True, but it was panned as a bare bones game when it was first released. Took a while for it to build a following as people started to appreciate fast, fun, in your face games with less features.

Yeah, makes sense but I'm not a big fan of that mech as it was on the Tesseract and TOTAN, tends to slow gameplay down and block shots in a not so fun way to me. Maybe the single post is better. Might have been more interesting if they added a motor to it.

What's ironic to me is that JJP started by emphasizing that all their games would play the same, differences between trim levels would only be cosmetic. I think the Wonkavator was the first change to that business model. Now the Coma ball lock for LE vs CE, which I think is the first playfield difference between an LE and CE among all the companies.

I also find it interesting that JJP's original intent was not to go after Stern's lower price point market. Times change and I don't begrudge them changing their business model to try and make more sales but I am disappointed in their decision to make a physical gameplay change between the LE and CE.

And...GNR looks great! Theme integration is top notch.

Yeah, I expect they'll figure out a way to meet demand in the coming years.

If all these things are taken into consideration, how could the distributors be certain of how many machines they would be allocated before JJP notified them?

Seems like the distributors should be putting people on a waiting list rather than promising them games they don't have confirmed.

True, but I doubt anyone expected 500 CE's to sell out the first day. This is unprecedented for JJP. Maybe they should have made people submit application videos to slow down the process.

After reading multiple posts where people said the Standard looked stripped and close to a Stern Pro, I took a closer look.
Are they kidding?

What Stern pro has anything close to three flippers, 27" and 7" displays, all RGB lighting with new side rail lights, 2 ramps, custom 3d sculpts (Axl and hat), real drumstick ramp return, real back glass, spinning disk, individual targets, guitar pick spinners, tons of playfield lights (world map) and hex stage lights, plus all the sound, video and animation content?

Seems like a good value if it plays well. Looks closer to a Stern Premium to me (exceeds in some areas, lacks maybe one more interactive mech).

I agree, they both look like great games.

I think it's natural for people to compare games (content, value, etc.). Especially when a new one comes out.

With a forum this large, you get a bunch of different opinions and different ways of stating them. I expect there are also a few trolls, people with axes to grind and company plants sprinkeled in.

It all generates discussion, which I think is a good thing.

I was thinking the same thing. If you look at JJP's game progression (WOZ>Hobbit>POTC>Wonka>GNR) it seems like after POTC the games have been getting fewer mechs.

GNR is clearly a winner (barring some fatal gameplaying flaw) and it has some of the best theme integration and cosmetics I've seen but no drops, subways, animated dragon, rocking ship, etc..

Good for profitability and reliability, not so good for cool interactive playfield toys. I will be a little sad if JJP stops using more mechs as a way to separate themselves from the competition.

I hope they set up the game well. Seems like the initial videos for JJP games tend to have the games too slow and floaty.

They have flipper power adjustments for a reason.

Agreed. Why does this happen so much with JJP initial release videos?

How difficult is it to crank up the back legs and increase the flipper power in the settings? Also, this is a music pin, play a few games with the volume up!

Combine the floaty pitch with someone who has a slow and methodical playing style (but hasn't mastered the shot geometries) and it was a little difficult to watch. Still, I appreciate Kevin for streaming the game and it was nice hearing the commentary from the team.

I think the "What the Flip" stream is a better representation of the energy the game can create. I still think the game should be set up faster but the variety of players helped.

First impressions are important!

Keith has programmed some of my favorite games so I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt at this point.

What I like most about his programming style is the way he embraces the theme of whatever game he's working on and takes you on a journey.
His layered and complex rules usually give you multiple ways to approach the game and grow with you over time.

I like his goal oriented rulesets with rewards in the form of cool light shows, display and sound effects, which I prefer over score oriented rulesets with rewards like playfield and shot multipliers that have little fanfare.

He also has intricate risk vs reward rules to maximize your score if you want to learn them, play in tournaments, etc...

From what I've seen so far, GNR has all of the above.

TL:dr
A few streams that look multiball heavy are not going to shake my faith in Keith's master programming skills.

I'm the same way. I'm more interested in advancing the game towards some goal and/or making cool things happen than I am increasing the score.
I also like the basic rules to be easy to grasp. I definitely see this in GNR.

1) play Songs to get to Album modes.
2) tour the country to get to Tour multiball.
3) hit the spinners and disk to get Slash multiball.
4) do all of the above to get to the wizard mode.

There are two-ball booster multiballs that can help you when you're in a song mode (slow the rate of the boo meter, increase score, etc).
There are rewards for completing songs, like getting an Encore and immediately starting the next song.
There are patches and posters to collect that give different awards.

I won't know until I play it but I see the potential for lots of non score-based enjoyment.

I like the build up and payoff in the way Addam's and that era game typically implemented multiball.

Some might say LOTR is multiball heavy but I really like the way it was implemented. Varied and interesting goals for each multiball and necessary to advance the game.

I also like the way multiball was used in AFM as an important role in destroying the saucer and the challenge of getting the super jackpot.

It seems like Keith Johnson targets his rulesets to have long legs in a home environment. People tend to gain appreciation the more time they have on them. We'll see if this holds true for GNR.

JJP has been known for taking a long time to deliver games after they are announced. What a turn-around.

Is shipping games the same day they are revealed a modern industry first?

Regardless, well done (and with what looks like polished code).

I think Stern has been doing pretty well lately code wise, considering they're putting out 3 to 4 games a year. The polish JJP is able to give to their code with their slower release schedule is one of the things I really like about their games.

Regarding airballs, seems to me they start appearing after a game has been played a bit and the targets get bent back.

On WOZ the center target was the culprit. The airballs would usually hit the bottom and sides of the munchkin playfield, but they could get airborn enough to strike the top.

On GNR the front and bottom of the headstock is protected. I can't tell if there are any targets that could launch a ball high enough to hit the top.

I doubt the balls rolling off the head would cause wear but it's easy enough to put a piece of mylar down if there is concern.

Kind of agree, but as the saying goes, 'He who laughs last...'

Quite a few people have posted that it plays great to them, though it may be hard to separate pure gameplay from the overall experience.

Lots of comments about the playfield layout, it's important, but only a portion of the fun in a game.

To me, a game with an okay playfield layout and great software is usually going to be more fun than a game with a great playfield layout and okay software. By software I mean the rules plus the audio, video, display and lighting effects.

Unfair drains are a problem too. Multiple people have mentioned that made shots can lead to balls going to the right outlane. That can leave a bad first impression, like the right orbit on TZ going SDTM if you don't use the upper flipper to deflect the ball.

I heard that it shouldn't do this on GNR and that a metal rail can we tweaked to fix it. Hopefully, they'll get this sorted at the factory.

I think that's common for less experienced players. When my wife first started playing, I remember her telling me she didn't like getting multiball because it was too overwhelming. Now that she's gotten better, she enjoys them and can aim for shots amidst the chaos.

I find games get easier and more fun as I get to know them. A good game makes me want to get to know it. A great game keeps me interested.

From what I see and what many have said, GNR has the potential to do both, but so much is personal preference. Looking forward to playing it.

To him, yes. He doesn't come across to me as someone who is trolling so I'll accept his opinion as being honest.

Well said! I'll add that I appreciate an honest opinion, even if it's different than mine.

Different is good in a larger collection. I can't help comparing each new release to the games I already have. What is it about the new release that makes it special and worth buying? If it's a theme I love, it still needs to be implemented well. If it's a typical layout, are there cool toys or unique rules that make it extra special? If it's a unique layout, does it shoot well?

I can see that the light show and theme integration (playfield and software) on GNR makes it special. I like a few GNR songs but it's not a theme I connect with, though not a show-stopper either. As such, the gameplaying experience is going to have to be special enough to overcome the theme for me to buy versus just playing at friends or on location.

I love this rule. It encourages keeping all the balls going during multiball vs trapping most of the balls on one flipper then using the other flipper to play one ball at a time. More fun to watch and play with others. Imagine how long the multiballs would last otherwise when playing with people who are good at that technique.

It's not like no-hold flippers, you can still trap, hold and shoot but you have to be aware of your boo meter. People will get more skilled at shooting on the fly.

How about now, any video of the SE gameplay?

Hmmm...I'm not seeing much bashing going on. Sure there are some people voicing concerns, but if that's a problem it's best to stick to the owners thread.

In fact, the usual vocal anti-JJP posters are pretty quiet. This probably says more about GNR than anything else.

I guess for some, flow is everything in a game. I like it too but I also like interesting shots that do things other than return the ball to the flipper.

Thanks for the thoughtful, balanced review.

You've said it first. Thanks for the heads-up.

As always, time will tell.

What makes that a problem?

I think getting past the impulse, hype train buy usually pays off in pinball.

No way, all those toys and mechs getting in the way of the ball. No flow. Shouldn't rate higher than '3'.

I have Full Throttle and Alien. Oddly enough, I tend to look at the inserts and back box for information instead of the playfield display, even though the information on the displays is the same. May be due to all the years of preconditioning.

Yes!

But that requires patience and...

I want it now.gif

I could see them doing another run of POTC if they think they can get enough sales at a price that works for them. Why wouldn't they? They've already sunk all the developement costs.

I disagree. JJP needs to keep the production line moving. It would be smart to re-release already completed games, that have demand, when needed. Which I would expect with their longer design cycles.

I think that's what's kept Stern in business as opposed to the Williams/Bally one and done philosophy.

So...has Micron said when they first started putting their Spectrum playfields in GNR?

This is what I don't understand, if someone is concerned about playfield quality, time for delivery, non-refundable deposit, gameplay, or any of the many concerns made in this thread, why order a pinball machine when it's first released? There are typically issues to work through on the first games off the line.

It's not like anyone is forcing them to buy now.

I would bet Mirco has been working on it. Why wouldn't he? It's bad for his business and terrible for the manufacturers, like JJP, he supplies.

Hopefully, the playfields that are having problems aren't using the same process as the one on the Spectrum playfield, otherwise it's back to the drawing board for Mirco.

Some kinds of problems can't take a lot of trial and error to find a solution, if one can even be found.

JJP can choose to stop production, which may mean going out of business, or working with what they have and deal with the customers who have problems. Long term, they could try to find a different vendor with proven quality.

Customers can choose not to buy until they see definitive proof there is no chance they will get a bad playfield.

I don't think anyone is saying there isn't a real problem, we're just trying to get an idea of the scope.

Since anyone participating in the pole is reading the thread, how difficult is it to post a photo of the problem area on their machine?

That might give a more accurate number of the owners on pinside with issues. Would be interesting to compare the number of people who post photos to the number of positive responses in the pole.

Until you go to sell.

Though, I've noticed as my eyesight has gotten worse over the years, I'm much happier with the way my playfields look.