Mine has done this as well; check for loose connections/reseat cables/connectors. Give the head a good "thunk" and see if it corrects it; if so, probably a loose connection somewhere.

This is outstanding! I remember reading that (as well as the "mystery features" part) in the owner's manual and thought "hmmm?". love how things are uncovered even years later. Keep up the good work!

I've noticed on occasion (maybe every time, but I'm not sure) that upon the start of RIOT! wizard mode, an award (maybe 100,000?) is given and a flaming skull animation with a name runs across the dmd PRIOR to the actual start of the mode. I think I have noticed that it isn't awarded from time to time, any guesses here folks? I COULD take the glass off, but I'm currently not at home, haha...

I'm aware of that one, but I'll have to actually watch when I play a few games tonight. Sometimes it happens, other times it doesn't; trying to figure out why...

LOL, pretty much.

GNR is a perennial favorite of mine, but you really nailed it. Nobody really cares about anything after UYI2; hell, I remember when Chinese Democracy FINALLY came out, and there wasn't even a buzz over it. I remember hearing a song or two on the radio, and that was the end of the hype for it. Hell, when I saw them the last tour, I think they may have played a single song released after '94. (For the record, the concert was awesome, show was three hours long and they played probably 40 songs, one after the other, after the other, after the other!)

As for the pin, it's a classic. Simple to understand, packed with shots and features. Good modes and even scoring. Great sounds, good dots. Satisfying shots. The only thing I yearn for would be the ability to stack modes and multiball. (Coma doesn't really count, as it sort of runs in the background if your sixth shot to the band saucer corresponds with starting coma...).

If JJP drops a new GNR, I'm not really sure what direction they would take. I like the games, but they just don't connect with me, if that makes sense. I've played the hell out of WOZ and DI, and I just never feel connected to them. I played WW this past weekend at the NYCPC, and it just felt too kiddie for me. I really like the movie and all, but "Kid Multiball"? Really? The whole thing just seems weird. Based on the previous games, a "new" GNR would probably be a pass for me. We'll see.

Now back to shouting at clouds and telling kids to get off my lawn.

Those lower metal guides/protector on your "G" ramp are factory.

It's been a while since I had mine all apart, but I believe the G ramp is just kind of held in place by that bracket, as in you can slide it out for full removal once everything else is unbolted/out of the way. I didn't follow a guide or anything, but it was pretty straight forward.

ETA: Looking through my phone, I found pics from the last tear down. That nut and bracket did not have to come out to remove the G ramp or the snake/bowl. It acts solely as a support for the ramp.

I bet I could, I just worked through the same issue with a Baywatch. Sounds like the low voltage hold SCR is bad or cold-soldered. Take some close ups of the front of the board and the back of the board, and I'm sure we could walk you through it.

ETA: Also check end-of-stroke switches to be sure they are (I think) closed when the flipper button is fully pressed. I doubt that's the problem as the problem "walked", so it sounds like an electrical component issue. The third flipper shouldn't have any switch leaves, as it takes it's signal from the left flipper. I'm betting the faulty component is in position SR1 or SR2 on the board.

If you are going to buy a replacement board anyways, it might be worth trying. It's not really hard to unsolder/solder in a new component. Figure a new SCR will be $2; a new board could be over $100. Just fruit for thought. I totally understand not wanting to get into the nitty gritty of board work.

I've found that playing for modes (and actually playing the lucrative ones and not timing everything out) leads to generally higher scoring games than the super pops/multiball all day strat.

A clean backhand to the add bandmember/guitar feature shot is SOOOO satisfying.

I happen to have both GNR and BW; I would absolutely take color in BW over GNR, its stunning how beautiful it is, especially with the big screen...it's the most drastic improvement I've seen out of all the colorized games, especially with BW's digitally rendered graphics. It's "almost" LCD like. GNR DOES look great in color, but not even in the same league as BW, in my probably unpopular opinion, haha.

Shadow either, lol.

A sad commentary on the state of firearms these days...I had to pay a fee, to take a class, to pay another fee to the fbi and my local police station, so I could pay another fee to get a temp permit, so I could pay a fee to get a hard permit from the state police, so that I have to pay a fee to renew every 5 years to have the "right" to buy or carry a pistol concealed (and now just to purchase or even posses a long gun or any ammo at all). Imagine if they did that to any other constitutional right? Imagine the uproar if you needed a permit to vote?

Death by a thousand cuts and all that...Eventually people either just say "F#ck it!" and give up on firearm ownership (which I'm sure is the plan), quit caring about whatever bullshit law is passed next, or...

For those seeking apron cards, check out pinballcards.com

Whats an Xpin board like that go for?

It's probably a silly question, but have you pulled the coil sleeve and cleaned or replaced it? Wiped down the plunger shaft, and inspected for mushrooming and cleaned the linkage mechs? Checked the coil stop for cracks, and not being completely hammered? Tightened everything up?

My left flipper started getting really weak in the middle of a monster game the other day, and upon inspection, the sleeve and plunger were COVERED in coil dust. A quick wipe down of all the components with rubbing alcohol, and a tightening of all the screws and it was back up an running like new.

Tournament settings turned on?

I switch around settings every few months to keep it fresh (extra balls off/on with the different settings) and I think IFPA/Tournament modes turn off the animation, but it's been a little while...

Last night, I noticed the upper left flipper wasn't as "snappy" as it usually is, and my left flipper has lost some power as well. I did a quick clean of the associated mechs, and left it at that, but to no avail. I haven't began looking at anything else yet, but where should I start? I was going to check the eos at the lower bat, and maybe do the old crisp dollar bill trick across the button switch contacts...

While checking on a weak upper and lower left flipper issue tonight, I noticed the laser kick has now stopped working. The left out lane switch appears to be good; dmd triggers the animation for kickback when testing with glass off. Looked at solder joints on the coil lugs, and they look good. Any idea where to begin before I have to move a few games out of the lineup to get enough room to work on it? Haha.

There’s a diode on the coil, but I haven’t even broke the meter out yet, for what it’s worth...

Going to have to dig out the schematics. Hoping it just needs a good cable re-seat, but that's hardly ever the case, haha

So now that I finally have some time to troubleshoot my non working laser kick...

Coil doesn’t fire in coil test.

Checked connections and reseated plugs at the power board.

Checked the connection (but not voltage) of the associated transistor on the ppb board.

Checked voltage off the laser kick coil lugs and got 0.000...

Any idea where to check next?

So after getting my laser kick squared away (of course the last thing I checked was the fuse ...), I’m still at wit’s end with the upper left flipper being weak. I pulled the flipper board, and every thing appears ok; clips are good and tight, fuses are good...any idea what would cause it to be be “un-snappy”? It can’t make the loop, it’s that bad.

Holding strength seems ok, it’s just initial pulse that seems weak. I’m done for the evening, but will be back at it tomorrow.

I believe I did that first when I first noticed the issue, at the button contacts, but will try again.

Of course I used the last of my DE coil stops rebuilding the Baywatch I got last year, so I'll be ordering a couple in a few days, while I compile a list of other doo-dads I need to justify the shipping. The coil stop in the third flipper DOES have a large dish in in, so this could be the issue.

While investigating, I found a minor "hack" on the flipper board that I had never noticed before: The fuse clip that held the RIGHT flipper low power hold fuse in was cracked and the fuse was being held in place by a piece of wood wedged between an adjacent fuse to keep contact. Since the clips are junk anyways, I soldered the fuse to the remaining tabs, and there is good continuity. I actually have replacement clips, but will save that for a rainy day soon after I get the new stops. If after replacing the coil stops and sleeve, and there's still an issue, I'll repair the clips to factory in case there is an issue with the soldered fuse...getting close!

So after getting EVERYTHING sorted out with GNR, I just noticed the magnets stopped working (lol, it’s always something). This is a fairly recent phenomenon, occurring roughly at the same time the kickback failed a few weeks ago (which happened to only be the fuse; coincidence?). From some quick research F9 on the ppb is also used for protection of the magnet board, as well as the kickback, but I can’t confirm that.

I checked the fuses, and all 3 are blown. I popped a couple new 2.5 amp slo-blows in, and they popped while playing a test game for magnet function.

Any ideas where to start?

Magnets test at 4.9/4.8/4.8 ohms when putting a meter probe on the duplexed connection and placing the probe on the three individual terminals.

Game plays flawlessly other than this one last issue.

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A replacement mag board will be my last resort; I tend to prefer to fix the core issue, rather than replace a whole board; as an example, I’ve soldered in new optos in B/W fliprtronics boards for instance (even though a new board is $15, the replacement opto was $.89 from my local electronics store and two minutes of my time).

Time will tell, as I don’t like to throw parts at a game without actually diagnosing the problem.

Pulled the mag board out; does anything look remotely suspect?

Any idea what meter readings I should be getting off the three mosfets?

I might replace the three P20N10 mosfets with IRL540 mosfets as suggested by https://www.techdose.com/repairlog/Repairing-a-Data-East-Last-Action-Hero-Magnet-Controller-Board/306/page1.html

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here's my benchtop readings of the three mosfets:

I'm far from an expert here, do these look suspect? Should there be continuity across the three legs of the bottom two mosfets?

mosfet readings (resized).png

So here's my chain of events/logic here:

About a month ago I noticed the kickback stopped working suddenly;

I traced it back to a blown F9 fuse on the ppb; I replaced the fuse and the kickback started working again (And much stronger than before!);

I noticed a week ago that the magnets were not functioning during play;

I checked the three magnet fuses, and they were all popped; placed 3 new 2.5 amp ones in, and upon powering on the machine, heard the distinctive "wwiiirrr" sound of something be stuck on. I checked the fuses and they were all popped. F9 is still good.

I'm left as such: The magnets got locked on by a bad transistor(s) on the board or the magnet board itself. This blew F9 (and subsequently I lost the kickback) and the magnet fuses. The magnets themselves test good. The mosfets on the magnet board appear to be bad (as two test with no continuity). I'm guessing next step is replace the three mosfets on the mag board and go from there?

Interesting...

I have my negative lead on the top clip of the mosfet, and the the readings are from the individual legs. Maybe I'm doing it wrong? I would have figured no continuity would indicate a shorted/bad mosfet. As far as I can tell, this is the original, untouched magnet board.

Where is the capacitor physically located on your new board? is it literally just in parallel with clk and ground on the pia?

The 70 bucks for a replacement board from the various manufacturers certainly isn't going to break me, I just always prefer to salvage original boards/replace individual components when I can. Call me a sucker for abuse, lol

John,

That's a very generous offer; I may take you up on the old board as a backup...

I'll text you later to see where that capacitor is located. Thank you!

I went ahead and ordered three IRL540PBF (the current equivalent of the IRL540, but with slightly higher continuous amp drainage, so it should actually be more robust) for a whopping $7 shipped to my door by Friday.

Figure it's worth the gamble to pull the 3 old transistors and solder the new ones in. If it works, so be it, and if it doesn't and I get three more blown fuses, I'll order either a great plains or homepin board. Working on them is half the fun of this hobby, right? Right?

I believe setting 47, Multiball Ready Style, set to Hard or Extra Hard.

Being a DE, it MAY not be possible to deactivate pity multiball...I have mine set up to factory settings.

I'd wait for a more knowledgeable settings/ROM version guru to chime in.

Thank you #arolden!

Thankfully I haven’t had the time to replace the 3 mosfets on the mag board yet; I’ll see if I can’t have someone local socket and replace the pia for me on the mpu, and I’ll rebuild and add all the other things on the mag board! Thank you again!!!

You don’t think that would risk blowing the new mosfets?

I mean if I power the game and hear the tell-tale buzz of the magnets I could immediately power the game off/open the coin door, but would that second or two of power surge fry them IF the magnets are in fact locked on?

I’m pleased to say that gnr is back up and running 100%!

I soldered in the three new IRL540 mosfets and two of the recommended caps arolden recommended (I had them on hand and will probably add the other components to the mag board soon).

I put the board back in, and put three fast blow 1 amp fuses in the holders as a cheap insurance policy in case the magnets were still locked on upon power up.

I powered the game ready to turn it off immediately if I heard the tell tale buzz of the magnets being locked on, but nothing!

I powered the game off, swapped the 2.5 slow blows back in, powered it back on, and proceeded to the mag test in diagnostics. Magnets pulsed normally!

I played a couple test games and everything worked great!

Thanks again for all the help folks, much appreciated!

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I love DE GNR...One of my favorite games, hands down, even to this day.

Let's see, arguably, the first (and best) "Rock Band" pin that ACTUALLY incorporated their ACTUAL songs into the game, and told a story...

(Get out of here Bally Kiss, with besides the startup chime in the key of Rock And Roll All Night, could have been any other theme and it would have "worked"/DE Tommy with the musical versions of The Who's songs...)

Tells the tongue-in-cheek story of the band at the time, and even pokes fun at itself (have to get the band on stage, at a time, when they were notorious for being late, or not showing up).

Has actual callouts from the band members (JACKPOT!, RIOT! by Axl, etc.)

Features the only official release of "Ain't Going Down".

Has super fast game play, and can be very mean when set up correctly.

Designed by Joe Kaminkow(!), John Borg(!!), Lyman Sheats(!!!), and Slash(!!!!)

Balanced scoring, multiple ways to attack the game.

Getting to RIOT! wizard mode, and actually collecting a huge Jackpot is VERY challenging, as well as collecting the Super Jackpots in regular multiball.

Deep enough to keep my attention and not get stale; simple enough that newbs understand what to do.

Some interesting and hidden "stacking" features.

Captures the feeling of being at one of their concerts pretty well, and the wide variety of music in this game gets you pretty pumped and never seems repetitive.

6 ball multiball never gets old.

And last but not least, features McBob with a couple of different lines!

Not going to lie though, I may be getting my first JJP ever. With Slash (and most of the band on board) again, this is really an unprecedented release; I can't really think of any other band that "fits" pinball so perfectly, and when the lead guitarist is a pinball enthusiast and had a direct hand in the design and flavor of the game, I'm not sure we'll ever see anything like this again...

Cliche I know, but I never would have thought we'd see the band continue on as successfully as they have recently, and have another game, especially of this quality and magnitude, released! At least not in this lifetime!

I don't remember where I heard or read it, but apparently, it was a real challenge to get Axl to do the couple callouts he has and sing the lyrics to Ain't Goin Down...

I could only imagine his perspective on things back in '94, haha.

Although it's already been addressed, the purposeless "Z" connector on mine was what was fried...I was able to get a new one, but if not, I would have just soldered and heat shrunk the wires. It's funny, because it's literally pointless, and actually increased the BOM...I guess they must have had an abundance of female connectors in the factory when they built the game, haha.

I'm only guessing that you can readily backhand the guitar saucer?

Open those outlanes, add a fat yellow post rubber (or two) to the add-band-member saucer and the guitar saucer, and lets see you do that, haha!

But yeah, EPIC score nonetheless! I'm guessing that was about an hour long game! So satisfying. Great work!

After a bunch of help from arolden and jrotten, I was able to repair my issue with <$8 in parts, and maybe a half hour of time.

Start at post 1904 in this thread and go from there. I ended up replacing a couple mosfets on the mag board with upgraded components, and adding a few additional caps, and it's been flawless since.

Good luck, you'll be back up and running soon.

First, get a meter out and check for continuity in those GI lamps; check at the pins in the backbox, then the first lamp in the string. Hopefully its just a bad/burnt pin, or hopefully even better, just a loose connection.

If no continuity, find the loose/knocked off wire and resolder it.

If you have continuity, you have two options...

Start removing stuff from the surface to get to the bulbs and replace them with QUALITY new ones. If you go that far, you might as well shop the game. I did mine a couple years back, and it wasn't too bad, took a couple hours. I thought it was impossible that a bunch of GI bulbs could be bad, but if the game was routed before, they very well could be.

or, one I wouldn't recommend, pull the staples and replace the bulbs that way...Good ol' stapled down DE GI.

they'll be listed on the matrix chart as some type of gi

Buttons aren’t all crudded up, they just photograph like that for whatever reason...

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With freshly rebuilt flippers, the G ramp is a hoot; I've had a few airballs from time to time, but maybe 1 out of 75-100.

I'm surprised there wasn't a small deflector from the factory at the apex of the "G".

But yes, looks like there is a slight kink at the flap. Good luck!

Add-a-member scoop on mine looks just like that. Nothing out of the ordinary. You can hit it full power and it doesn’t rattle out or anything. FWIW, as long as it kicks to the VUK, I wouldn’t worry about it. YMMV.

Huh…

Never seen that before, “BUT”, if I had to guess, the right orbit for Slash solo loops.

That said, I love spinners, but GNR doesn’t feel like it’s missing anything with a lack of one. DE seemingly stuck everything (including the kitchen sink) in their games back during this era, and it usually just muddled up the gameplay. To me, GNR is one of the few DE games that doesn’t suffer from that…

With long needle nose pliers (or small hands) you don't even need to drop the mech to replace the targets; when the transfer bar is at rest, the bottom of the targets can be slid out. YMMV on which method is quicker for you.

Yes, it's factory, and pretty rare, only being an option on FOREIGN (non-US) domestic market games, and only 100 made.

I'm guessing it needs the caps replaced, or has a wonky connector.

Also, as the exterior control has two jacks, make sure someone didn't break off a male headphone jack in one, as it would cause issues; I'm guessing these were prone to damage when they came out on location, hence why it was unplugged, and they only made 100.

I'm of the humble opinion that DEGNR is wayyy better than JJPGNR, from every standpoint except the "wow" aspects of the lcd screen and modern controlled lighting. But I don't play the lights or the screen...

Being a "rarer" game that you don't really see on location, or a game that doesn't change hands very frequently, I don't think a lot of people, especially those newer to playing pinball, have experienced the original. I think a lot of people are burned out by the JJP version, and automatically downplay the DE version. Yes, the JJP version is pretty looking, but it's basically a rudimentary jukebox for wealthy collectors to look at, that also happens to have a pinball playfield built-in.

With a color DMD, modern LEDs, and (In my opinion, the optional) Pinsound, it absolutely hangs with modern games. For the roughly $6500ish market price this title commands, you are getting a packed-to-the-gills wide-body game, with a killer theme, that is a bargain compared to most stripped-down Stern Pros. Dare I say it has moved into the sleeper/undervalued category? Aside from the doesn't-actually-contribute-to-the-gameplay "whiz-bang" the JJP has, the DE version is better in every way.

Obviously every game is slightly different (different drill locations for flippers/slings, etc.), but I find the backhand to the add band member scoop to only be easy on a game with tired/worn flippers. The wider flipper travel arc and reduced strength make it conducive to the shot. Try fresh stops and sleeves at a minimum, and you’ll see it’s not a “gimmee” shot.

That said, it “should” be backhandable, but with a very small window of accuracy.