(Topic ID: 238419)

Gulfstream odd electrical problems

By DCRand

5 years ago


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#1 5 years ago

Working on a Wms Gulfstream that has PF and Back glass lights, and nothing else. Manually triggering the reset relay resets the scores but then stops and no response anywhere. What is odd is that there are two unusual electrical readings on my meter.

A:One side of the start button switch reads 18.1 volts, the other side zero - until pushing in the switch. Then both sides read zero. Can't understand how the powered side of the switch would go to zero also when switched pressed. Jumped the lugs on the back of the switch stack, same result.

B: The flipper buttons, including all leaves on the left switch read appx. 24 to 28 volts before buttons pressed. Both sides of most PF coils, including flipper, pop bumper, kickout holes, and some relays, read appx 24 to 28 volts across both or all three lugs on the coils. But none are firing. Unplugged the play field and back box jones plugs, and while of course the pf coils now read zero, the cabinet switches still show voltage on all leaves of the switches, except for the start switch which reads as noted above.

Not sure if these two problems are related or separate. Can't find any switches that look closed when should be open. Can't find any obvious wires that are disconnected, shorted, etc. but could have missed something.

Any suggestions would be appreciated.

#2 5 years ago

If the Replay button on the front door doesn't activate the Coin relay, Inspect and diagnose this circuit with Alligator clip jumper wires
http://www.planetimming.com/Pinball/troubleshooting/EM%20Troubleshooting.pdf
http://www.pinrepair.com/em/index3.htm#features

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#3 5 years ago
Quoted from DCRand:

What is odd is that there are two unusual electrical readings on my meter.
A:One side of the start button switch reads 18.1 volts, the other side zero - until pushing in the switch. Then both sides read zero. Can't understand how the powered side of the switch would go to zero also when switched pressed.

The path to ground has less resistance than your meter. That's why you read 0. Doesn't mean there's anything wrong with your meter that's just how it works.

#4 5 years ago

Thank you both, will check the circuit after work today.

#5 5 years ago

In starting to trace this circuit, noticed the ball count unit didn’t look right. It’s just above the replay unit in the back box. It was somehow out of alignment like it had been manually turned past it’s normal stop point. Cleaned and put it back in correct position and game started.

For a few seconds. Mildly loud buzzing and 20 amp fuse blew. Three fuses later ..... can start machine and game as long as no ball in trough. Tilt light is on, and pushing ball trough switch then causes buzzing and seconds later blowing fuse again.

#6 5 years ago

Still trying to trace, will post when more info.

#7 5 years ago

Well no luck so far. Tried to isolate various wire paths. Checked all tilt related switches. Can’t find the short. Have the schematic, but haven’t been able to trace all tilt circuit related wires .

#8 5 years ago
Quoted from DCRand:

Mildly loud buzzing and 20 amp fuse blew. Three fuses later ..... can start machine and game as long as no ball in trough. Tilt light is on, and pushing ball trough switch then causes buzzing and seconds later blowing fuse again.

Check this circuit (odd-no Tilt relay!) Also, I don't see a 20A fuse in there; replace with the proper one.

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#9 5 years ago

Thks for advice. No tilt relay made it harder to track with my limited knowledge. And about a third of relays aren’t labeled. Will have to look at fuses closer, just replaced w what was there.

#10 5 years ago

Without a breaker is there a way to test the fuses circuits without just going through a dozen or so fuses?

#11 5 years ago
Quoted from DCRand:

Without a breaker is there a way to test the fuses circuits without just going through a dozen or so fuses?

Do a search for breaker fuses.

#12 5 years ago
Quoted from currieddog:

Do a search for breaker fuses.

Found the modified breaker fuse suggestions on Pinside. Just haven’t bought any yet. Looks like trip to Harbor Freight.

#13 5 years ago

Well, still haven’t found short. But found broken plastic on lock coil. So on hold till order new one.

1 week later
#14 5 years ago

Well back to it. The plastic end of the lock coil was broken, so ordered new from PBR. Also the slam switch on the coin door was taped together and just hanging in mid air. So ordered screws and put it back together properly. Game is still showing permanent tilt condition, inc tilt light on, and blowing a fuse when the outhole switch is pressed. Start button does reset score reels and "start" a game, but it is tilted so no pf switches or flippers working. All lights seem to be working fine.

Traced the game over relay circuit Currie suggested. Can't find any obvious problems but think that is on the appx right track. Also have suspicions this may be related to something with the ball count unit. Current "symptoms", conditions:

All n/o tilt switches tested both continuity and voltage. All have continuity across both legs when open, which I assume is not good. The blue-red wire on all reads 27.3 volts, the white red wire reads 10.7 volts - also I assume not normal. Disconnected the white red wire from all three switches, no change in tilt or fuse problems.

Checked voltage for white - red and blue red wires at lock relay switch, and same 27.3 for bl-r, and 10.7 for w-r.

Disconnected various jones plugs. When far left jones plug in back box is disconnected, will still "start" a tilted game with tilt light not on, and outhole switch does not blow fuse. Tried an experiment, with rubber gloves on, and plugged in jones plug at an angle two "plugs" at at time till tilt light came on. Doing that traced to the white black wire on the plug set. But couldn't tell why that wire turned on light.

Also, took drastic step, for which I am sure I will be admonished, and jumped the 24 volt fuse that keeps blowing. First time, when hitting the outhole switch - the lock relay buzzed due to very rapidly turning on and off, for a couple seconds till the 110 v -10 amp fuse blew. Then jumped that fuse, and with hand on game on / off switch hit the outhole switch again and lock relay buzzed rapidly for a few seconds until I turned the game off.

At this point, I am stumped. Any further help / suggestions would be appreciated. And yes, have the test breakers on order so don't have to jump fuses.

#15 5 years ago
Quoted from DCRand:

Game is still showing permanent tilt condition, inc tilt light on, and blowing a fuse when the outhole switch is pressed.

Check the switches on these two relays: Outhole sw. D involves Game Over Trip, and and that relay switch E involves the Tilt light.

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#16 5 years ago
Quoted from DCRand:

and lock relay buzzed rapidly for a few seconds until I turned the game off.

I missed this initially. Note that the E sw. involves that Game Over trip again (noted in schematic snip above). And A is interesting, involving the kick off sw. Have you checked the Game Over trip coil? And if that is ok, I would see if the kick off sw. is stuck or anything. It's on the bottom of the cabinet, near the center.

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#17 5 years ago

Currie. Thanks for the ideas. Had checked the kick off, but will again. Will be a couple days before I can get back to it.

#18 5 years ago

Ok haven’t powered up game but checked resistance of all relay coils. All but 1 read 10.5 to 18.1 with most about 15.5. But Game latch relay reads 4.4 with leads attached. Desoldered wires and coil reads 10.1. Sure this tells me something. But not sure what.

Edit: in above test forgot had the far left Jones Plug in the back box unplugged. Piugged back in, clamped (w alligator clips) wires back to coil and reading drops to 2.1.

Schematic shows red blue wire from this coil leads to ball count unit. It seems a number of the wires or relays related to the problem connect to or through the ball ocount unit. Coincidence?

#19 5 years ago

More coil info, all readings w leads / wires attached:

Ball count add ball coil, 2.5, deduct ball coil 7.5.

Credit unit add game coil 3.1, deduct game coil 3.1.

All score reel coils apps 7.5.

All other b bx coils 17 to 25

#20 5 years ago

So, may be just talking / typing to myself at this point. But have traced fuse blowing issue to one of the Jones plugs in the bottom of the cabinet, see pic. When it is plugged in, the 24volt fuse blows. When it is unplugged, and all other Jones plugs are plugged in, the fuse doesn't blow - but the pf still acts like it is tilted. Unplugged it, and ran a jump wire from each female to each male plug connection one at a time. None of the single jumped connections blow the fuse. But plug in the entire plug, and fuse blows. Ideas / suggestions? Could there be a short in the Jones plug itself? The male side looks ok, can't tell about the female side, and how would I test that?

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#21 5 years ago
Quoted from DCRand:

But have traced fuse blowing issue to one of the Jones plugs in the bottom

I would unscrew that female part and check carefully for solder drips and other types of things that cause shorts.

#22 5 years ago

Took time before work this morning. Pulled female part, looks perfect, darn it. Did continuity test between various terminals and of course due to wiring had a little less than half that “beeped”. My guess is one or more of those are my problem and just need to follow every wire using schematic to help that shows continuity to look for a short. Any better ideas?

#23 5 years ago

I dont have a schematic but I would think that when you re connect the Jones plugs, all that is happening is that whichever circuit is bad, you are just completing its circuit again so unless there is a problem on the female Jones plug as currieddog suggests, your problem lies elsewhere. I would certainly take a close look at the game over interlock relay for starters. And check that each coil is actually pulling in ( I had a recent issue on a GTB interlock coil that was bad, despite looking perfectly ok) If this is anything like to that which is on a Gottlieb, then it's a fussy thing to set correctly. Then look again at the outhole and game relays in the same fashion. Good luck and be patient, you'll find it sooner or later

#24 5 years ago

Hi DCRand
there are different forms of "Tilt" - I call 1) "mild Tilt" when we loose just the ball in play. I call 2) "severe Tilt" when we loose the ball in play and all the rest of the balls - Game-Over for this player causing the "Tilt". 3) "Very severe Tilt" is when all participating players loose all the balls - Game-Over for all players. Rather modern EM-Pins have 1) and 3) - the Gulfstream has 2), 3). At the time designing the Gulfstream the techs said: We can save money - we do not implement an Tilt-RELAY - we make the Game-Over-Relay to trip (when the pin is tilted) - and on the Backglass we can show "regular Game-Over (not tilted) --- Tilt-Game-Over" --- as we use the information given by the Ball-Count-Unit: The game starts on ball-5, then comes ball-4, -3, -2, -1 then the pin steps down to ZERO - ooops, Game-Over, lets trip the Game-Over-Relay (this is the regular play situation). When the player bangs a tilt: The Ball-Count-Unit is NOT in position Zero --- Tilt-Light is lit.

I suggest: Toggle-off the pin / unplug the main power cord (Safety Reasons) - manually step the Ball-Count-Unit down to Zero --- plug in, start a game - what happens ? When the pin comes to a stop - and You see "Game Over" in the backglass: Manually step the Ball-Count-Unit up some steps, "untrip means latch" the Game-Over-Relay by using a wooden stick to push on the armature "Game-Over-Relay-Latch-side" - do You now have action on the playfield an can play a bit ? Greetings Rolf

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#25 5 years ago

Progress, said firmly tongue in check. It now blows fuse as soon as the power switc is turned on. So can’t try Rolf’s test.

#26 5 years ago

Actual progress: Found the popping fuse when turned on problem, hadn't plugged in one of the small front of cab Jones plugs completely. Can you say dumb. Called a local friend for advice, and he suggested checking the flipper coils as I had found the yellow wire in the attached pics obviously over heated. So rather than just check ohm readings, de-soldered all three leads on each coil. Also pulled the yellow wire from the black block it attached too.

Plugged in the game, hit start button, game started normally. All ac playfield features worked. For example roll over switches score. DC features, like pop bumpers and sling coils don't work. Outhole switch doesn't blow fuse, and outhole kicker works. Ball count unit doesn't increment to 5 balls when game starts. Manually advanced to 5 balls. Outhole switch doesn't decrement to 4, and when manually click it to 1, it doesn't decrement to 0 or turn on end game lights.

Turned off power to game, plugged yellow wire back into black block. Powered on game and 24 volt fuse blew as soon as hit the start game button. So bad flipper coil, or something wrong in AC to DC conversion?

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#27 5 years ago
Quoted from DCRand:

So bad flipper coil, or something wrong in AC to DC conversion?

Try a new bridge rectifier.

#28 5 years ago

I think I have a bridge rectifier and possibly a flipper coil. Looks like I can come over Sat., I'll know more Fri.

#29 5 years ago
Quoted from izzy:

I think I have a bridge rectifier and possibly a flipper coil. Looks like I can come over Sat., I'll know more Fri.

Thanks, will work on it some tonight as well.

#30 5 years ago

Worked on the game tonight and traced the short to the main red wire that runs to most play field coils. De-soldered the wire at points starting from the Jones plug in the bottom of the cabinet, through each coil under the play field all the way to the bridge rectifier. When connected blew fuse, at each point disconnected, fuse fine. Then disconnected the red wire at the small junction board beside the rectifier, fuse fine, with red wire connected to all pf coils.

Used jumper to jump from the red wire disconnected from junction directly to the blade connector on the rectifier, and fuse blew as soon as turned the game on. So hoping this points directly to the rectifier as the problem. Will be getting a new rectifier to test in a couple of days. Thanks for all the help so far.

#31 5 years ago

Yea, it was the bridge rectifier. Thank you all for your advice and help, and thank you Izzy for the rectifier. Still has some issues, mostly occasionally acts like it is tilted, bit no tilt light comes on. And it occasionally struggles to kick out a ball from the outhole. But not asking for help with these yet, will start a new thread if can't get them resolved.

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