(Thanks for posting those links)
Seems pretty rough. Lightshow and LCD programming are pretty basic and the LCD stuff feels really cut and paste/static. Like when you're choosing your character at the beginning, they're just still images when they could have at least some movement and there could be sensors and gauges moving and doing random things to make it seem more complete. Also, showing full body makes less impact than torsos where the characters could be much larger and more visible. Makes it look really blah from the start.
Quoted from Who-Dey:
You can’t be serious? This game is kick ass and is going to be a HUGE seller for Stern. A lot of people are saying that this game is better than JJP’s new POTC game. That is saying something there considering all the hype that game got and how beautiful it is. Everyone was hammering the last nail in Sterns coffin and look what they just did, they crushed it! People counted them out a little too early looks like! I guess you can’t please everybody but most pinheads are pretty excited about GOTG.
No, I am serious. Stern is in desperate need of an art director with experience in game animation to fix their anemic efforts making their LCDs come alive. This is what, four games in to the Stern LCD age and it still looks like a class project? The animation and general polish isn't even in the same league as the 20% finished PotC that was shown.
Batman '66 is all over the place with little consistency in presentation, Star Wars has lots of weird static images just moved across the screen, Aerosmith looks like a free flash game. Guardians has more weird/bad art direction for the presentation, too, from what's been shown. It's an issue of art direction to control the presentation in a consistent way so everything meshes. Stern's art direction is poor for the LCD era games. No comparison with a JJP game, which are ALWAYS consistent in tone and design for the screen presentation.
Quoted from NorCalRealtor:
Ugh. Aren't there other threads for stroking JJP?
JJP has problems in other areas I can talk about at length, too. This conversation is about art direction, and JJP clearly has someone overseeing their UI that knows about consistency in presentation. That's all.
Quoted from jwilson:
Rarehero posted up some examples of how they should be doing display work a few months ago, giving examples of an indie video game that was leveraging 3D graphics in a 2D format. I forget the exact game but it was spot on.
JJP does this on Dialed In and it looks amazing. You don't need to do photorealistic 3D rendering on a pinball machine because the screen isn't the primary focus. The disadvantage is that it's a lot more work than just cutting and pasting movie clips.
The beginning of On Stranger Tides multiball in JJP's PotC is a PERFECT example of making content that meshes with the video clips from the movie. It's based on the shot from the movie where the people are falling into the ocean shot from below, but they re-created it in 3D with pinballs falling into the water from a similar perspective. A good example of the imaginative and excellent, seamless art direction that binds the game together.
Is he doing the in-game animations, too? I thought he just did JJPs logo and some promo stuff. I didn't know he was handling the in-game video, too.
Quoted from rubberducks:
I doubt he's doing everything himself, but I was under the impression he directed everything.
Well, if he's the art director, the cohesiveness of JJPs screen work makes a LOT more sense. It's so far ahead of what any of the others are doing, it's not even funny. Seems like they'd recognize that and get a top level artistic director themselves, but so far...nothing.
Quoted from taz:
Oh, thank God I'm on my first NIB boycott, because of getting screwed over on shitty BM66 code, otherwise I would have pre-ordered this really great theme like I did with X-Men LE and BM66 LE and lose my ass yet again. I need to move a game or two to make room for new games but I can't cause I'd get annihilated on LE game cost losses. Wise words here folks whether you like it or not, "DO NOT pre-order, wait and let others take the NIB loss after they get disillusioned on poor game code and sell for a thousand dollars less." In other words, be patient and buy a slightly used game for a thousand dollars less. Think GB, HB, or pick your game.
Hard to get hurt with this advice. I think a lot of people are going this route this time.
Quoted from OLDPINGUY:
But I feel if your Newest game from Stern was Met or GB..its a very good option.
So much is right on this....Lets hope they finish and follow through???
Why buy and hope when you can skip it, get a game with mature code, enjoy that for a year or so, then come back to this when it's actually not a mess?
Paying to play the Stern software waiting game is so 2014. I think people are starting to wise up as options for new machines proliferate.
Quoted from grimnim:
does stern not know how to spell "lights" or is "lites" an american thing?
Stern does have a poor history with spelling on their playfields, but not this time.
"Lites" is okay in American English and shorter so it fits in tighter spaces. Having both a "g" and an "h" in there really fattens up the width of the word. "Lites" is much slimmer.
Quoted from extendo:
We need a graph dammit !
Of what? I already did one with the number of machines that shipped with less than 1.00 code at launch. There were only two in the modern Stern era going back 8 years, and they both shipped within the last year. Pretty sure this is the third in just the last 12 months (the ONLY 3 games in that 8 year period), but verification from that person that got theirs already is needed. It's making a really doom-y trendline, that's for sure.
Quoted from flynnibus:
But you aren't supposed to still be on beta code after you've launched the product and shipped it.
This isn't a preview... the game is in production and shipping. Stern once again can't deliver a complete product at launch.
3 for 4 nowhere near 1.00 at launch in the last 12 months. That's lame.
Doubt it. I'd be surprised if it wasn't at least to 1.0 by Spring. Lonnie's doing some low-level Spike system work, but I don't think he's spread as thin as Lyman and his code is A> probably based on KISS/Aerosmith, and B> simpler.
Quoted from Ryanx0r:
I'm really on the fence about cancelling my order now on this. It's unfortunate because I love the theme.
You can always circle back in a year when the code is substantially better (or pass when it's still crap). Spend your money on a game with code that's fun right now. There are tons of options.
Quoted from Scribbles:
Why? Because I'm getting a bit tired of my Rbion. There's no place near me to try out new games, no conventions I'm aware of in my area, so if I want a new or new to me game in my home, I have to take a leap of faith to some degree. So, why Guardians as opposed to another time tested title? Well, I loved the movies, some of my favorites, so I fell in love with the machine on sight. I'm just saying, I'd be disappointed if I received a rushed product for almost 6k of my hard earned cash.
Ashville's less than 2 hours away and they have a pin museum with AC/DC, Batman'66, Game of Thrones, KISS, Ghostbusters and other newer Sterns mixed in with the old ones. Why not play there to make a decision? Seems like a cheap way to figure it out.
Quoted from Whysnow:
I honestly have paid very little attention to BM66. It was out of my price range and I played one locally that did nothing for me. Was BM66 really worse than this appears currently?
Yes. Yes it was. And 11 months later it's finally a little better, but still a hot mess nowhere close to 1.00.
Quoted from Whysnow:
with that being the case, I hope people are canceling orders and holding off on buying after seeing the stream. (only way to influence Stern to fix their coding practices)
We are still getting one for route, but yikes the lack of code would scare me off if ordering for home.
I am sure it will get better with time, but if BM66 is still bad now then this is not indicative of a good trend.
I really thought the "wheres the code" thing seemed to help and games were better with starting code more recently. This is the wrong direction but the only way to push them is to not buy till coded.
Batman is much better than it was just 2 months ago, so that's great, but it shouldn't have taken 9 months to get there, and not being even at 1.00 almost a year later is crazy.
But yeah, the only way to stop this trend (3 out of 4 have not shipped with 1.00 code in the last 12 months - that's never happened to my knowledge) is to stop buying pins at launch from Stern.
What sound? What video? At launch there were almost no callouts and the same handful of short clips played over and over. BM'66 was most definitely worse. I mean GotG is a MESS, but it's not for lack of video.
Quoted from Eskaybee:
This is nothing new with stern. Early buyers = Guinnea pigs; both with software + hardware.
But it IS new this time because there's never been SO MANY unfinished machines shipping. Literally never in modern (or probably ancient) Stern history. Prices are higher than they've ever been, quality is lower, and games literally are nowhere near done. Unprecedented.
Quoted from pipes:
So, is it true that GotG wasn’t meant to be their next release but was instead supposed to be a Trudeau pin? This would somewhat explain why it’s only half-baked.
But that's not even a valid excuse. Let GotG finish development and move up a run of a planned vault or something to keep the line running and fill the gap. People have been waiting for Tron - give them that. Keep cranking out FINISHED games, not half-assed-nowhere-close-to-done messes. It WILL catch up to them if they don't get it under control.
Quoted from pipes:
Well, apparently they had planned to have one more game on the market before the end of 2017 so to follow through with that they had to push GotG out the door regardless of the state of the code. Merry Christmas.
Nope. They didn't HAVE to push out anything, and I'd be very surprised to see another machine this year. Move a vault in, move GotG to 1Q and it would have been a much better reception.
Quoted from pipes:
It’s easy to say these things from the outside looking in. I’m sure they scrutinize over every scenerio and ultimately will do whatever they feel will benefit the company the most. Your scenerio evidently, wasn’t going to cut it in terms of their bottom line.
Given that it's the 3rd time they've "benefitted the company the most" in the last 12 months by shipping games nowhere close to 1.00, it's pretty clear there's a problem with management or cash flow or both. Customers clearly are not the first consideration. Once could be an anomaly, twice a mistake, but three times in 12 months points to a very serious problem at Stern. It's literally never happened before twice, let alone three times in 12 months. Something is very wrong.
Quoted from pipes:
Possibly but can you tell me for certain that their sales are suffering at all?
No one can, but if this literally half-done launch code and 6-18 month wait for 1.00 is the new Stern norm, I can tell you sales WILL suffer, especially with so many more options coming to market now. I know a number of NIB buyers that are out of the new Stern game now. More than at any time I can remember. It will catch up to Stern (if it isn't already), and the fact that Stern has allowed this to happen THREE times almost in a row points to serious problems internally of some sort.
Quoted from Ed209:
Guessing the only thing wrong is the fact that people continue to throw pre-order money at games sight unseen. Vote with your wallet.
Like I said, I personally know a number that are voting with their wallets by just not buying new Sterns now. They're done with Stern NIB, and it will be a long road to get them back. But yeah, the best way to affect change is to make it clear to Gary that no, he can't sell just a box of lights with a great license like he said at expo.
Quoted from pipes:
All my games are Sterns at the moment but I think it’s time for me to test the waters over at JJP for a while. I’ll come back to Stern once they get their shit together.
You are not alone in that sentiment.
JJP is awesome (Hobbit excepted) and getting better IMO, and AP's Houdini is looking and playing really great.
Quoted from pipes:
Out of curiosity, when was the last time they actually released a game with complete code (not counting minor updates)?
Aerosmith was the last one that shipped with 1.00 or greater. BM'66, Star Wars, GotG all shipped with much less than 1.00, and Batman'66 shipped as little more than a box of lights. ALL the Sterns that shipped with less than 1.00 at launch happened in the last 12 months. Before that it was pretty much unheard of in modern Stern history.
Meh. I played the pro and wouldn't call it great. Huge missed opportunity.
Quoted from Hazoff:
GOTG could all of sudden get a major update by the end of the month and everyone bitching will look like fools
This isn't happening anytime soon. There are a huge amount of design issues evident in the way GotG works now. There is a LOT of work to make something cohesive out of the mess they're shipping currently.
Not even wait a year for a complete game. Wait a 6-18 months for a non-beta 1.00 version that Sterns USED to ship with as recently as a year ago. That is a change for the MUCH WORSE with Stern in the past year. They're now unapologetically shipping alpha and beta-stage games that stay that way for up to a YEAR or MORE. This isn't even about complete games, or extra modes, they don't ship feature complete games anymore.
AP's Houdini look's pretty hot, too. But yeah, if everyone took a break from Stern NIB for a year or two, there might be some awareness in Stern management that no, Gary can't sell boxes of lights like he says he can.
BTW, hilarious that you downvoted a post with nothing but facts about Stern's shipping version numbers in it.
Quoted from Rarehero:
I wonder if a "Pro+" is something that would be detrimental to blind-buy launch sales on future games. Why buy a Pro now when an upgraded Pro might come later?
Because given the slope downward on materials corner-cutting at Stern the last couple years, that Pro plus later might actually be a Pro minus because of even crappier build quality on a machine that looks similar and better but isn't.
Quoted from OLDPINGUY:
The only reason is deadlines are hard to keep.
As a consumer, I hear you, I'm simply sharing there is a business side,...... Sterns, to the release.
I understand in today's social media charged opinion's these days, seeing " the other sides view" has been harder to do.
So either we just bitch, moan, and threaten not to buy, and arm chair manage someone else's business, or wait, and enjoy what's good.
See Epicurean vs Stoicism.
It can be excused once, MAYBE twice, but GotG is the THIRD time Stern pins have shipped without even 1.00 feature complete software in the last 12 months, and TWO of them (B'66 and GotG) were essentially Alpha software, not even Beta). That's not unforeseen circumstances, it's poor management and planning. It's literally never happened before.
Quoted from nitrojcrawf:
With all the code talk would you rather have
A: fewer game releases per year say two with complete code or
B: pay more for games at the current release schedule to have Stern hire more help to keep up.
There's plenty of money in each machine right now. Stern's been skimping on help while raising prices for YEARS. There's accrued goodwill they can draw from. But I did the math in some other thread and it worked out to like $25 a machine to hire more programmers.
Quoted from TKDalumni:
Solid code will be here by Dec. 15/16. Mark this post!
2018 or 2019?
Quoted from hank527:
Shooter Lane cliffy .
I used hard as nails on the scoop for now.
Though I'm disappointed as Aerosmith pro came with a cliffy from the factory. WHT did they not put one on this game?
There's no such thing as a Cliffy from the factory. They ripped him off and made a protector.
Quoted from PanzerFreak:
Oh wow, these may be the worst callouts I've ever heard in a modern pin. In a DMD game it's slightly more tolerable as you are not seeing actual video footage from the films. With an LCD game though custom callouts seem even more out of place when you see video on the screen.
Without the original actors voices I don't know what this game is.
Haven't watched yet, but it would have to be almost unimaginably bad to top XMEN for worst voice cast in pinball.
Quoted from PanzerFreak:
The callouts in XMEN are far better in my opinion and they are not that great to begin with. I know the XMEN callouts are not considered good but I give them a pass as the game is not based on the films but rather the comic. GOTG though...just wow.
Go to 46:40, lol.
Wow. That's bad. It seems like it makes it even worse because unlike XMEN where the characters on the pin are animated, these voices are set to live action clips. Makes it extra-hard to accept the terribly matched voices.
Quoted from NorCalRealtor:
I ordered a Pro for my location after the initial announcement. I figured theme..check, art...check, designer...Borg...check! How bad can it be? I need this for my location!
I'm PIF but I haven't gotten the shipping notification yet. If there's still time should I get out of it?
With all the other options out there, PAYING for another slap in the face like this is ridiculous. Get a game that has code NOW and circle back to this in a year to see if it looks any better.
Quoted from NorCalRealtor:
I wouldn't even hesitate to cancel if it was for me. I wouldn't have ordered it in the first place without playing it first. But location purchases are a bit different. It might still be a very good earner. On the other hand I don't want to be part of the problem by supporting horse shit launch code and dog shit call outs.
I help with locations locally and I've stopped recommending any new Sterns to the OP. Aerosmith was the last one we got. Passed on Star Wars and passed on this.
There are plenty of better options for locations from companies that don't feel they can get a good license and sell you a box of lights (as Gary stated at Expo). AfMr, Houdini, Dialed In are available now or in the next few weeks and none of those are naked cash grabs like GotG. All of them would also probably do well on location, too.
If you're still buying these boxes of lights Stern is farting out now for home or routes, you're part of the problem, IMO. They need to see sales drop or they will never change.
Quoted from swinks:
this gif should help explain
thanks and it is a challenging one to achieve the 2inches of shooter stroke and stay just below the lockdown bar
there will be a built in minimum and maximum stroke so it can't hit the lockdown bar, this side view shot should help show the profile of the design (better renders as well)
Sides need caps or guaranteed kids pinched fingers.
Quoted from pninja005:
What was the next game again?
For Stern? Hard to say with the shuffling. It SEEMS like it should be Iron Maiden. Supposedly Pulp Fiction had problems and was delayed or abandoned. Don't think Trudeau is going to be doing his Beatles pin, but hey, maybe he'll be acquitted.
Ah, right. That's late 2018. I'm casually interested in that, but not a huge fan of the first two - they are just okay for me. Plus, Stern's chronic cost-cutting, cheap BoM, and terrible launch code with huge waits had better be addressed by then for this to even be considered. I'd literally pass on one of my dream pins (Iron Maiden) just to not promote Stern's reckless behavior lately. It's that bad.
Quoted from Sinestro:
Not late 2018.
I dunno how it can be early or mid 2018 and be awesome because Lyman's been working on Batman'66 full time since last year at the expense of everything else to make Batman'66 at least 1.00. He wouldn't have time to start Elvira 3 coding until at LEAST 1Q 2018 because he's been working full time on Batman'66 for over 12 months now. Gomez said that over and over and is still saying that, and he doesn't lie.
So if Lyman isn't getting started on Elvira 3 coding until 1Q 2018 and it's going to have at least 1.00 code (breaking the disturbing current Stern "we ship games nowhere close to even basic 1.00 games" trajectory), that's mid-2018, probably late 2018 shipping. Because, you know, Gomez said Lyman's been busy full time on Batman '66, and he insisted he was being honest. He INSISTED!
Quoted from EchoVictor:
When you think that Tarantino is the most over-rated director of all time, and have never made it through any of his movies they're so dreadful, even though you've tried to sit through several (Pulp Fiction, Kill Bill, From Dusk 'Til Dawn, etc.)
I'm not huge on the superviolence Tarantino seems to love, so I had no interest in Django Unchained, but caught it on TV by accident and ended up watching the whole thing. EXTREMELY entertaining. Give that one a shot.
Unless Tron is blinged out close to the LE I can't see them selling a lot, and LotR will be going for about what a nice HUO LE already goes for, but all you're getting is a more fragile board set but potentially more reliable flippers and LEDs. Both seem like a more tough sell than other vaults.
Quoted from Soulrider911:
I was in a similar boat, I LOVE GOTG, huge fan.
Even as much as I love the theme, the movie, the music... I just can’t support a business model where relesessing an unfinished product to the market is not only acceptable but becoming normal.
I may be the lone one, but morally no sir, Stern no dinero from me... maybe when the product being sold is at least 90% complete I’ll consider.
You're not alone. We skipped Star Wars and GotG. I'm not supporting Stern again until they start shipping games with at LEAST a base 1.00 level of feature-complete software. Improve it later? Sure. But ship it at historical normal levels of completion. 3 unfinished (two WILDLY unfinished, and one sorta close) games in the last 12 months is literally unprecedented in Stern history. Not supporting the continuation of that. Fortunately AP and JJP have enough attractive offerings to buy instead.
6 months after release to get to even baseline 1.0. And a massively stripped down BoM on the Prem/LE to boot. No bueno. There's no excuse for that business model at the prices they're asking now, and I won't support it.
Quoted from resipsa:
Apparently the hype train has moved on.....a month ago the announcement of two songs being added would have generated 200 posts by now.
I think it was more that they just added songs they could get cheap aren't really first to mind when you think "great for pinball" and the movie had many better (and likely more expensive to license) songs. That, and the code. Feeling very X-Men-y right now. Actually, that's best case. And that's the problem. Stern on this new "ship a box of lights, maybe add some pinball later" initiative is really destroying any NIB trust repeat customers have, so people are just passing and maybe will buy used later if the code pans out.
Quoted from Who-Dey:
Finally got to play a GOTG Pro tonight. It’s a beautiful game and a great shooting game but the code does need some work for sure. If the code gets better though, this game is going to be pure greatness!
Very hard to say at this point that it will be pure greatness. XMEN eventually got much better, but it took YEARS and was not pure greatness at the end, it was just what I'd call "good".
Both are Borg titles. I think it's too soon to prognosticate the end, but GotG is off to a very poor start, and the two songs no one was asking for that they added did not help at all.
Quoted from j_m_:
there was a launch party tourney last night @ m-brew in ferndale, mi
unfortunately, the game broke down and was unrepairable (the coil to launch the balls in groot's mouth and start multi-ball appears to have fried) so the tourney was postponed and will need to be rescheduled
it's kind of sad that the machines are experiencing catastrophic failures this quickly. has anyone else experienced an issue like this?
Ghostbusters Prem subway coil fried the first week we had it. It happens.
Quoted from Whysnow:
Was it? I never saw one to play back in the 90s because they are so rare. I played one at a show and then found it immediately. I have had it ever since and it will never leave. Great layout, and best refinement of that general shot map.
Definitely. I clearly remember having a very hard time unloading a mint one at a show for like $1600. NO ONE wanted it. Once the "A" games got too expensive in the 2000s, people started giving the B games a chance and found out it's actually a pretty good game. But it took like 10 years after release for that opinion to change.
Quoted from John1210:
Given Lonnie's more recent track record can we really expect this?
Think about it. You're expecting the game and theme integration will be at least on par with dwights 1.0 code on Star Wars. It simply isnt going to happen.
Aerosmith is cut paste and no code for ages
Kiss.... is a joke
ST needed saving and is still flawed
A lot of the problems i see on this game are unfixable and irreversible
That WWE LE armor is a curse that keeps on giving...
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