Here you go...

Hadron

I assume they used this joke several times across the two films, but I cannot seem to remember it.

Maybe you could pad your pin-fund by printing some t-shirts:
"The Softening HUO Market Gives Me a Hadron"

They removed the spinners from Star Wars Pro?

Mind the splinters.

True, Stern's adding work for themselves by doing it this way. So why do it? They're asking people to pay $1800 to upgrade to the Premium, and it seems obvious that they'll get a lot more sales at the Premium level if there's a "real" difference between the two, as opposed to just alternate art. I'd bet they would lose half or more of their Premium sales if they made the change you suggest (in this thread alone there are several posters who say they went with Premiums specifically to get the extra play-related features). I'd also bet that they factored in the cost of increased coding and support when they decided to adopt the three-tiered approach.

Look, I get why you don't like this policy. If Stern would change its ways you'd never consider buying anything other than a Stern Pro. But that's the point, right? Stern's job is to make it hard for you not to buy the Premium.

Put all the fun to play stuff on the cheap model! Put a bunch of non-interactive "bling" that half of the pinball community doesn't care about on the expensive model! Sit back and watch sales of your Premium machines plummet!

Great advice from the buyer's perspective. Lousy business advice for Stern.

Some people are talking about a spinner. Some people are talking about having zero difference in how the Pro and Premium/LE games play. Regardless, you don't have to like it but it's obvious why Stern would do this -- they need to make the Premium and LE more desirable. If it's got more stuff on the playfield, it's more desirable to many people.

JJP LEs (their mid-tier machine) are a different case. They're only 12% more expensive (vs a 33% jump from Stern Pro to Stern Premium) and they include stuff that's presumably somewhat expensive for JJP to add (shaker, invisiglass). That's great for the buyer, but how much additional profit do you think JJP makes on an LE sale vs a Standard? Can't be close to what Stern clears on a Premium sale vs a Pro. A better comparison would be sales of JJP's LE vs their CE (the % price increase is more similar, and the enhancements are more purely aesthetic and probably cheaper for JJP).

Again, you don't have to like the model or support it with purchases, but it makes business sense to try and incentivize all of your customers to step up a tier when they buy one of your games. Not just the buyers that are motivated by different playfield art or non-interactive toys.

Just because some "collectors" will buy anything with some gold paint and a number plate slapped on it doesn't mean you maximize profit that way. If you can sell substantially more of your mid-tier product by doing what Stern does (or to stoop to a cargument, offer an upgraded engine and not just leather seats on your LE), and the increased cost of adding and servicing those enhancements is offset by your increased profits, then why in the world wouldn't you?

SW code was in good shape when it shipped. I wouldn't assume GOTG will be non-operational.

What bugs in current code? I’ve been playing the hell out of mine but maybe I’m less discerning.

You don’t have to like the code, of course. I was just asking what bugs you’re experiencing (or did you mean you were experiencing bugs in July but not with the current 0.93 code?) I got mine in September so started off with 0.89, though I put a bunch of time in on a Pro right at launch and didn’t run into any game crippling bugs.

Will one of them be the Hasselhoff song from the GOTG2 end credits? Should be a cheap license! Maybe that plus the Pina Colada song?

I'd forgotten that Zoe Saladana was in the Legion of Doom.

They’ve got to save a few songs for the Dazed and Confused pin when that comes out though ...

Just make sure that the LE doesn't ship with all three translites, like they did with Star Wars LE (probably a different deal since you're getting a real backglass with the LE, but probably worth asking so you don't end up with two Pro translites).

Stern probably won't sell the arms separately later (I think they generally try to discourage you from "working your way up" to a Premium or LE that way), but someone else assuredly will. Check out the aftermarket Millennium Falcons for SW Pro. Of course there, it seems Stern was using a commercially available toy so it may be slightly harder to get an exact duplicate for Groot Arms, but someone will figure it out.

I figured they threw in the other translites on SW LE since everyone was complaining about no real backglass, and many folks seemed to like the Premium translite best. Since GOTG has an actual backglass again, no extra translites (since they'd then also need to include a sheet of clear glass and channels if they wanted people to be able to use them).

I'm not disagreeing with your other points, but how do we know that Spike has a higher failure rate than SAM or Whitestar? I've seen some reports of node board failures on Pinside, but have no way to judge if it's a .1%, 1%, 5% etc. failure rate. I'd think it would be tough for anyone but Stern to evaluate comparative failure rates with much confidence.

Fantastic stuff!

You could try asking on their Facebook page. If you do, phrase your question in a positive way and without a hysterical edge to it to avoid being immediately deleted.

I have another question. As I understand it, the Spike games so far have all had at least some game-specific node boards. Is there an obvious reason that future replacement node boards couldn't be designed to be compatible with multiple titles? If this is possible, and if Stern committed to doing this, it might address some of the concerns about Stern's incentive to provide long-term support for Spike node board replacement.

Does the 20% import tax apply to used game imports as well? (I'm guessing it does, of course!)

MSRP for the Premium is $7,600. Retail will be a few hundred less than that (I think people were paying $7200 shipped for SW, I'd guess GOTG will be the same since MSRP did not go up?)

Just sell them within ten years, let the next guy worry about the self-destructing unobtanium node boards, and you're sound as a pound! (Perhaps a poor metaphor, given what the British have to pay for Stern games).

Seriously, no one knows. You can either hold off until you're confident you can repair them yourself or that parts will definitely be available (not sure if/when either of those will happen), or figure that the chances of you still owning the game in ten years are relatively low, and in any event if people are still playing pinball in ten years the market will figure out a way to keep these machines running if they're still worth something (and if they're not, the age of parts machines will be back).

Please put that exhibit away, you’re making me anxious about the new Star Wars ...

Well it’s not that weird that people are talking music in this thread ... it’s not a band pin but the movies prominently feature mix tapes and are very self conscious about what music is playing at all times.

Or alternately, it’s on the official soundtrack, therefore it’s literally a soundtrack song.

Also the backstory on that song is awesome, the artist wanted to cash in on the Christian rock craze but knew little about Christianity, so he just threw it together based on his rough impressions. Instant classic!

It’s strangely common to use songs in previews that aren’t in the movie (first one I remember noticing was actually “Mr. Blue Sky” from the Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind preview, which I was then psyched to hear in the movie and of course did not). But I don’t know how often those songs make it onto the soundtrack! Maybe it was planned to be used in a deleted scene or something? Or maybe they were buying the rights anyway so figured what the hell let’s throw it on the soundtrack? Either way, a bit odd.

I imagine it has to be an issue with getting licensor approvals -- there's no way Stern would voluntarily sit on their hands for months and lose all those sales.

If the "one game a year per programmer" thing is correct, then they presumably also have 7 1/2 months after a game launches to continue polishing the code (or work on code from their prior releases, which happens sometimes) before they would have to drop everything and start coding their next new title. Did you get confirmation that this is how it works? Or are they tasked with something else during that 7 1/2 months (or put on furlough or something)?

On the flip side, if they innovate they risk people disliking the new approach to code. Exhibit one would be the Star Wars shot multiplier. If they stick close to tried and true code (and/or layout), then they can more safely predict how buyers will react.

I understand that you're just reporting what you heard, but think through the math of what you're saying: Each programmer has 4.5 months to complete a game before it ship. Then shifts immediately to the next game, on which he will have 4.5 months. So each programmer should have 2.66 games per year shipping. We know that's not the case (in real life we see about one game per programmer per year), so that cannot accurately reflect Stern's process.

Sounds perfect for the NASCAR Vault Edition!

You could put together a little diorama like this and save yourself about $393 ...

Milano (resized).jpg

I'm pretty satisfied with the screen on Star Wars (other than the stupid looking Mystery sequence), but would agree that it's nowhere near Hobbit-level so probably not worth debating. But in what ways, specifically is the audio "awful" in Star Wars? Too much sound and character speech from the movies? Too many John Williams tunes?

It's all subjective of course, but I've found just the opposite with the sound package on Star Wars. The use of movie sound clips in the modes is very entertaining, and the music cues for different modes and events are well done (e.g. the tense music for the Hyperspace Hurryup). I haven't played it nearly as much, but I have no real complaints about the sound on Aerosmith either.

That said, I do hope Stern continues to improve their use of the LED screen. Another reason that it's great having multiple manufacturers, so they can continue to compete and steal ideas from each other.

Is there anything in the display and sound that makes me says "ahh, pinball and Star Wars together"? Yes there is. Take Rescue the Princess, for instance, which plays situationally appropriate sound clips when you miss your shots (Han shouting "what the hell are you doing?" or Leia's sarcastic "you came in here, didn't you have a plan for getting out?"). Or Lightsaber Duel, which uses sound and lighting to great effect. Or Hyperspace Hurryup and ball lock sequence, which again use the music, SFX, display and lighting to great effect. At least for me, the SW "media" package is not perfect, but it actually works pretty well in context, and makes a fast, fun shooting game even more enjoyable to play.

"Integration," "intermixing," "world under glass" etc. are of course all totally subjective, so I don't expect to change your or anyone else's mind. Just reflecting that not everyone views Star Wars as a horrible mishmash of clips and quotable quotes ripped thoughtlessly from the movies.

If the version of SW you played featured Gandalf doing callouts, I begin to understand your complaint re: theme integration....

You’re right that he would be an absolutely terrible Ackbar. Likewise he’d be a terrible Lando and a terrible Obi-wan. Of course he’s not intended to be any of those characters!

The narrator is British, but otherwise doesn’t sound much like Gandalf.

Unless your joke was pretending that you thought the narrator was meant to be Ackbar in the first place, in which case ... touché?

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Seems a tad melodramatic. Whatever Gary's goals may be, I doubt that the many experienced hands Stern has making machines have given up on "creativity" and "fun." And I'd have a hard time taking much seriously from anyone that thinks none of Stern's games made in the past few years have offered "fun experiences."

Seems like we're almost getting into a philosophical realm with this discussion. I get that people get an unquantifiable good feeling from supporting small businesses and underdogs (like Spooky or JJP) that they're not going to get buying a Stern game, and that can't be discounted. But otherwise, who really cares what management's motivation is? Either the end product is a fun to play (or fun to own) pinball machine, or it's not. There's plenty not to like about Stern's recent track record with QA/QC and release-day code quality, but it seems like a shame to let that spoil your experience playing what have turned out to be some legitimately fun pinball machines.

If you have (or will upgrade to) a newer HDTV, I’d spend the extra coin for a PS4 Pro, even if it’s not getting BF discounts. 4K support and better frame rates are worth the premium (which as you point out, is nothing next to what you’d spend on a pinball machine).

Agreed - they’d tap a new audience that didn’t love the show-themed art package, and probably get some double dipping from current owners that like the comics.

I know you love using that word, and while it is insulting, it’s also inaccurate. It doesn’t mean “blind loyalty,” it means “obsequious behavior toward someone important in order to gain advantage” (thanks Google). Do you really think people are kissing up to Gary Stern in hopes that he’ll bestow some special favor on them?

Personally, I prefer the guy that posts about all the hookers and blow he could have bought with that $5000.

Spending $1000s on pinball machines is objectively silly, there’s no getting around it. But with 24 games in his collection, Rarehero is still 5x as silly as me

Or if it was EM days and you had to rewire the entire machine to update the "code."

To some extent this is an issue with any modern pin. If you want complex rulesets, there's going to be a learning curve. If you own the game and learn its subtleties, it's easy to forget that it's not intuitive to newcomers. I had no idea what I was doing when I first played SW beyond "shoot the flashing lights," but the same was true for Hobbit and DI.

Stern would be correct that communication won't help anything here. Unless Disney gave them a firm commitment to approve stuff by X date (ha!), I doubt they could provide a credible date by which they'll release code with callouts. Shipping revised code will help, the kinds of generic statements they could credibly make right now would just piss people off further.

Nope. It's spelled "F#@kers."

SW sounds fine, thanks.

LOTR is standing right there!

Is Mark Ritchie working at Stern? That would be exciting!

How does Pinball Browser work with the LED? Are the video and audio files always separate, so that you could just swap the sound that plays alongside a particular video clip? Or is the "replacement dialog" embedded in the video clip, so you'd need to replace the entire thing to get the movie sound in?

Also, remember he's buying for route play. GOTG is ~$2k cheaper than BM66, and might outperform based on theme alone in most locations.

Didn't mean to spread misinformation, I figured BM66 was retailing for ~$7200 like other Stern Premiums (so ~$1800 more than GOTG Pro at $5400).

What did you pay for your NIB BM66?

Someone did a SW revision adding in more John Williams tracks (I thought they used Pinball Browser, but maybe not?) So some level of sound replacement appears to be possible on Spike. But are you saying you cannot modify the video images or LED screen display with Pinball Browser, only the sound?

So then it's back to the question of whether the dialog that plays during the movie clips is "attached" to the movie clips in some way, or if they're stored as separate sound files like the music cues and accessible through Pinball Browser.

Yeah - could be an idiotic question I’m asking, I just know nothing about how Pinball Browser (and the Spike file system) work.

jar155 has played a lot of SW and just plain hates it. Which is totally fair, he gave it a more than fair shot and it's not for him. I think he detests the multiplier shifting with the apron-button that's a key element of the game, and hates the Hyperloop ramp implementation on the LE, among other things, so lots of deal breakers for him. My impression is he's also a big fan of the Star Wars theme and so felt extra-disappointed that Stern didn't make a game he could love (or even tolerate).

As for me, I like SW because it's tough and super-fast with satisfying shots (I don't agree that it "shoots weird," unless you're talking about the Premium/LE ramp, which is more debatable) and lots to pursue (i.e. "deep code"). I love the multiplier shifting, it's a novel feature and adds a great and unique risk-reward element. The theme integration, including the art package, is certainly imperfect, but it works well, with good use of sound clips, music and lighting to give the many modes their own unique character. I've got a Premium and I like the Hyperloop because it's just plain exhilarating when you activate and are able to start loading balls. But I get the other side of the argument (including from many people that love SW Pro but wouldn't want a Premium) that it kills flow and is too hard of a shot to consistently make.

By releasing a pretty bare-bones design they immediately turned lots of people off, as it played into the sense that Stern's putting profits above quality at every turn. But nevertheless SW turns out to be a lot of fun if you give it a chance. IMO, of course.

Oh, and I haven't played GOTG yet, so maybe I'll think it shoots even better than SW. I'll have to get out to the local barcade this week to give it a spin.

SW 1.0 code is set for release this month. So if you’re waiting for that, it’s almost here. It will also be feature complete and solid (since 0.93 is already feature complete and solid).

Fair enough. Hope you get to play one on route though, it’s a lot of fun.

Looks more like Jeff Bridges.

I can only ever think of Dennis Miller's "Ain't No Dancefloor Wide Enough" bit when I hear this song.

But good on Stern for adding some more licensed tunes to the game. It'll be interesting to see how they use that one, not an obvious pinball song but then you'd never have imagined half the songs from GOTG in a summer super-hero blockbuster, which is the beauty of it.