Quoted from CaptainNeo:
i'm telling you. 100% of the people have failed this test. invisiglass is not as awesome as you fan boys think it is.
Newsflash... anti-glare glass... requires glare to have something to eliminate.
Or... they said "this really, really worked... let's build from there"
It is not without precedent.
Quoted from mbaumle:
One reservation I have with the Premium/LE though is that it looks like Groot's hands may block the view of a handful of shots (pun definitely intended). Maybe trifling, but that would probably annoy me.
You don't stand directly above the PF like these photos are.
Quoted from rubberducks:
The 'MAGNA FORCE' effect where the ball eddies for an extended period of time in tight circles in one spot, with the aid of a magnet, might be liable to absolutely wreck the playfield on any heavily played game. If the finish isn't perfect, and it frequently isn't these days with Stern, it won't be at all surprising to see some location machines down to the bare wood in a few short months. Everyone should mylar this before a single game is played.
Not necessarily. No wear concerns for magnets that just look to move/influence the ball. It's the magnets that try to GRAB the ball that cause wear issues.
No one has mylar'd their twilight zone mini-playfields... for the same reason. It's not unexposed magnets that cause wear... it's magnets that need to grab and the edges of magnets that are wear concerns.
If they aren't looking to grab and hold the ball, rather just push/pull the ball in pulses - the magnets don't need to be as powerful or long pulses and don't drag the ball as much.
people talking about the groot hands and blocking... what about those flashers and plastics over the top of both outlanes...
Looks like its right there in the area above the outlanes.. :/
Quoted from spfxted:
I don't understand about the music. Where was it explained? I always thought "Original Score" was the music used in the film. The rights for many of those older songs are not hard to get nor very expensive.
Score is the music made for the film
Soundtrack would be the music USED in the film... including existing songs that were used in the film (aka... all the 70s music the film was known for)
Pretty much.. yeah. They are more alike by rules than they are by shots.
Those would be... incredible stretches to call the same layouts. Fans.. yes. Shots, no.
IP owners expect licensees to protect the integrity of their content. There is limits of course... but they are expected to protect the assets and integrity of the product to ensure the product doesn't create representations the IP holder doesn't want.
They'd face problems and resistance to just making media interchangeable as a feature for instance... because the IP holder wants their say on the representation of their stuff.
Quoted from jar155:
This apologist act sucks. It IS stupid that Stern creates a gameplay split between their models. It splits the code base (thereby slowing down code updates)and it artificially increases the costs of getting a fully featured game. They should have gameplay 100% equal between models and make all the differences cosmetic. Holding back a few dollars in features to charge a few thousand more to have them is honestly the worst thing any manufacturer is doing right now.
But go ahead and keep making apologies for it so Stern doesn't have to change. That'll continue being GREAT for pinball.
If you only thin selfishly as a customer... maybe
If you step outside yourself and look at it like a business... you'd realize your ideal is far from it. Which is why most industries have tiers of product. "One size fits all" is usually a stupid idea... because not all buyers have the same interests, tolerances, and motivations. The key is making sure the gain from the tiers does not outweigh the costs of doing so... in both your net and in confusing the market. Which is why the more distinctive the tiers are... and better aligned with the target customer tiers... the better.
Quoted from jar155:
It's not one size fits all. It's keeping all the core functionality in line. It's actually harder on Stern themselves to split the code base. They have two targets to code for, rather than one.
No differentiation is going to be free - they will all cost something in terms of times, materials, complexity, stocking.. something. The point is to pick ones that actually achieve the goal of differentiation and do so in a way that the net works out for the better.
Quoted from jar155:
How you can possibly think it's "better" to split the feature and code base is beyond me. It's literally worse for every party involved. Buyers get less for their money, and Stern has to do extra programming because they have two different environments. Premium features get underused, because they are often a minority feature, so there's not as much motivation to code up those things. The Ecto Goggles were criminally underused, but if they had been in every model, I'm sure more would have been done with them.
The bigger the differences... the more they serve as differentiation and that's the whole point to start with. If its purely cosmetic as you advocate... then it becomes harder to justify prices and harder to steer customers where you want.
Again, no differentiation comes free.. but software is easy to differentiate and when done right, it's a cost that goes down as you build more games. Spending 3 more days to code something in, is done once... and the gain is realized on every future game built. Software is easy to manipulate.
And I disagree about the ecto goggles.. they are what they are.
Quoted from jar155:
When I play a Dialed In, no matter which model I step up to, it's going to be the same game. There's a lot to be appreciated by that. With a Stern, there is going to be some arbitrarily cut feature (spinners or drops, usually) or some shoehorned extra (GoTLE upper playfield) in there.
And why the need to appreciate different games as the same game? Should CGC have neutered AFM for the motivation of "we want to ensure we its the same as AFM... no more, no less"? Do you appreciate two Stern games playing the same, even if different titles?
If they are the same title.. and play the same.. its harder to convince someone to pay more. Which at the end of the day.. is your goal.
Pinside hates car anaologies... but its because they are true. A V6 edition of a car can be very different from a V8 version of the car - they don't shove the V8 in every model because they want to hit certain price points or satisfy different customer interests. That is not wrong - that is product diversity. It's not a stupid cost model - its a proven one.
You can believe in the JJP 'just make the best game you can' model... and that's fine. But you are also going to face having to deal with difficulties hitting different price points. The "build only premium" product strategy is valid to choose.. but that doesn't invalidate the value or worth of a tiered product model.
You want premium games... fine. But what do you do when a customer comes to you and says "I would rather sacrafice that.. and get this". You tell them "you aren't our target customer". Not all businesses want to do that.
Quoted from fosaisu:
Look, I get why you don't like this policy. If Stern would change its ways you'd never consider buying anything other than a Stern Pro. But that's the point, right? Stern's job is to make it hard for you not to buy the Premium.
You're dead on. He just wants everyone to pick HIS strategy. Which is JJP.. which is fine.. he can buy those products. He's not willing to think beyond his himself or his interests.
Product differentiation and pricing strategies are not soley driven by BOM.
Your prices need to support your BOM and margin strategy... your BOM does not define your prices or margin strategy.
"it only costs them $5" - the voice of someone who never has done product management or development.
What you charge is not about what it costs - its about what achieves the right balance of volume, margin, and market tolerance.
If you can't accept that reality - you will be bitter shopper forever.
Quoted from jar155:
Except for that I do. I am part owner in a company that manufactures and develops its own product. Oh, and my dad owns a manufacturing company. I grew up my whole life around it.
We offer 4 models of our core product. Prices range from under $2,000 to over $5,000, and the core functionality is the EXACT same on each, but they differ in ways that are only meaningful to peoples' individual circumstances (some like stainless steel over powder coating, for example). The lowest-priced model is not our top seller, despite it doing everything people need it to do. People pay for luxury, but they also appreciate that you don't arbitrarily strip out features that don't cost the company any meaningful amount to implement. We've had those conversations with customers a million times.
So you offer different product tiers based on functional differences and needs... and let me guess.. the price differences aren't purely the true cost differences.
"only meaningful to peoples' individual circumstances" - you mean... offering choices to fit the customer's desires/needs? Hrmm.. sounds shocking like.. offering tiered products!
Your analogy is poor because clearly for the application you are citing.. one feature set can fit all within your margin needs.
My post you commented on stands true - Your price isn't defined solely by the material cost. If you do that for your main revenue streams.. you're pricing is either in a highly competitive, low margin market... or you're missing out. Luxury/exccess products are not priced the same as utilitarian, commodity products. BOM is only a piece of the puzzle... and what kind of market you are selling in will dictate how significant it is.
Quoted from Fytr:
Sure. But when a large portion of your customer base makes it clear that ripping spinners out of the pro is not making them happy, I'd argue that is a clear indication that "the right balance" hasn't been found, in this case.
The differentiation is about the sum of the parts. You could take any one piece and say the same thing... people would want that one piece. It's difficult to make any one piece a solid differentiator... so you use a collection of features.
Most arguments I've seen over the years for this is purely the "man, that only costs X!!" instead of "I don't want to play a game if it didn't have spinners". It's people picking apart the decision to have different models more than it is about the feature itself IMO.
Quoted from jar155:
AND PEOPLE ARE STILL BUYING THE HIGHER TRIM. WHAT IS SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND HERE?!
Collectors will still buy whatever is perceived to be better. You don't have to gimp out your entry model. That. Is. The. Point.
What is so hard to understand here... your model isn't used by everyone. Ask yourself why...
Quoted from Fytr:
Generically sure, but in this case, enough people identified the removal of the spinners in MET as a major annoyance that if I was Stern's product manager I would take that feedback and keep the spinners in from them on, because it's a very inexpensive way for me to make the Pro buyers feel good about buying their games, and also a cheap way to show that I'm listening to feedback. I don't know anybody who was annoyed that their Met Pro didn't come with a rising cross mech, or a physical ball lock. People focus on the low cost of the spinners because they went ahead and bought them for $20 each at pinball life.
If you KNOW that an important customer segment is sensitive to the removal of a feature, and it costs peanuts to keep it in the game, then do so.
Spinners! Don't mess with our spinners, man!
You're pretty much relying on ancedotal evidence and claiming it's the norm. My experiences have been different than yours. Like I pointed to in an earlier post... picking these differentiations is not just black&white.. it's a balancing act. Is the spinner the 'deal breaker' for someone? Not IMO. I find things like the playfield supports a much bigger problem with them going cheap... and then not even staging the playfield for them to be added as a upgrade/add-on.
The point of the tangent is the $5 really isn't the piece that matters...
Metallica code evolved in the first year 2013-2104.... but the sole of what made the game liked was there after that. All the code changes since 2014 have been very minor. It changed a bit from initial release... but happened quite fast. Not years.
Quoted from Black_Knight:
I still don't get it Jar. The diffs betwen AC/DC and AS are very minor in the big scheme of things. It's still pick your song and the shot combos to complete are different among the modes.
I'm with you on straight forward rules though. I didn't like GOT because knowing the comex rules and strategy was way more important than playing skills. Got a SW on order to give it some time but it might be too complex style too.
I don't mind tracking 2-3 objectives at once but I can't think in 5 dimensions very long.
Modes in AC/DC serve the (real) purpose of building the Song Jackpot... very different than the 'completion' goal that is in Kiss/AS where the goal is to complete the song to get the payoff for not just playing, but FINISHING the mode (the multipliers).
GOT has simple mode rules on the surface... the real meat is at the next level which is what is cool about it. But unlike other games... say like the Simpsons... the difference in scoring between knowing the deep and shallow portions of the rules are astronomically different.
Quoted from Sinestro:
Your emotional and irrational bashing of Stern is what's odd.
If your arguments have merit, then a discussion can begin. When you say outrageous comments, it's no different than if you claimed to have invented the question mark.
Likewise, I have nothing else to add.
The only discussion needed would be rehasing old, established points. Points you conveniently stay ignorant of. Such as:
- Lack of documentation
- Incompatible revisions
- Lack of conformity for parts stocking
- Lack of availability for quick replacement (for a system promoting... lack of downtime)
- Lack of/poor protection circuitry on the driver boards
- Power design change that makes the old high power interlock/testing abilities NLA
- Lack of a long standing platform to date (already had 3 platform changes in its short life)
Yes it has capabilities SAM didn't
- native RGB support
- better sound capabilities
- "native" LCD support
But as a platform to deliver reduced costs, improved servicability, and reduced downtime... all which were the lead features of the new platform - it's failed to deliver on all those fronts. And until they address the problems, the platform will still stand to be a great liability... even tho it delivers new functionalities SAM didn't.
Quoted from Eryeal:
Not sure that's fair - you don't exactly go to Disneyworld or Disneyland and think "Wow, Disney is cheap with their stuff" or "This ride looks cheap". If anything, they almost spare no expense when it comes to their parks and experiences - it's full immersion. I think there's also a difference between "cheap" and "business conscience". They certainly put a lot of detail (money) into their parks that are minuscule and not noticeable to a lot of people. I'd personally think the GOTG music would not be something they would cheap out on as it is a big part of the experience. There must be more to it than that.
That's the impression they've built... but not the Disney of the last 20 years. . Just the Disney hobby and find out all the dirty details of how especially in the mid 2000s leadership ran things quite different.
Photos (including the LCD) from IAAPA - https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/iaapa-2017-guardians-of-the-galaxy#post-4073038
Notes Cherry Bomb, Hooked on a feeling are in... and 2 more songs to come!
Gulf Coast's gameplay video rehosted on youtube for those without facebook
Credit is of course to them - only hosting on YT for compatibility
Quoted from DeadFlip:
Game companies show off beta releases all the time. This is no different.
But you aren't supposed to still be on beta code after you've launched the product and shipped it.
This isn't a preview... the game is in production and shipping. Stern once again can't deliver a complete product at launch.
Quoted from pipes:
WTF does that even mean?
It means the emphasis, heart, and blood of the business is their factory production ability. What matters keeps the company going is units rolling off the end of the line. It means the most critical aspect is ensuring the factory line is pumping out product. It means their core expertise is manufacturing... and creating desirable pinballs is the means to create demand for that core business.
It's why Stern was willing to build products for other people. The thing that makes them money is the factory...
It's a mindset to ensure people recognize the element of the business that is the most important and what pays the bills.
Quoted from jar155:
There's absolutely no reason to do this anymore.
There really has never been a reason to rush to buy these games... yet look at how many people are "In!!" after just seeing photos of a game? Seems people are more addicted to having the latest and greatest toy and less about having great pinball machines.
The behavior (and stupidity of it) is the same for all releases. People are so eager to buy a game, they'll leap before they think.
It makes no sense what-so-ever when there are huge catalogs of games that are a KNOWN commodity you could buy. But instead people can't get out of their own way fast enough to buy the new release... even before the release is fully understood... with full knowledge the release will STILL be available months later.
Unless you think you are buying a LE because they won't be available (another subject all together...) the only person you help by buying early is Stern... certainly not yourself. But people do it over and over and over here... and then bitch about Stern not following through. Maybe because the buyers keep telling Stern it doesn't matter... with their wallets.
Quoted from jgentry:
That's not a negative against them but if someone is looking to buy a game right now it will be several months before they can have either POTC or TNA. Sure they can get DI, WOZ, or TH, but most people want what's new and fresh and those games were all announced over 1+ year for DI, 3+ for TH, 5+ for WOZ.
That mindset is self-destructive and I have zero empathy for anyone who goes that way and moans afterwards. Unless you are an Op, this is a stupid mindset.
You should want the games that match your preference and appeal to you. If the appeal that attracts you is "its new!!" and not about the game itself, then you get what you deserve.
The "you can't get one right away" issue is only if you are trying to buy a game before production starts STOCKING inventory (aka.. I bought it before it started shipping). Even JJP has a reasonable turnaround for games (and distributors with inventory) once a game is in full production and not the first few weeks.
The problem is again... people getting wound up in NEWS and HYPE instead of actually shopping for good pinball machines.
Is there anything in the media that makes you say "ahh.. pinball and star wars together!!" - No
Honestly the most integrated part of the game is the idea the death star is a 'kill shot' that ties into some mode rules
The rest of the game is a media slideshow synchronized to you playing a separate pinball machine.... that uses a star wars sound library.
People are happy it's using true star wars assets (photos, sounds, music) - but completely missing that none of it is tailored to the game, nor is it particularly integrated all that well. The media resources and how the player intermix is incredibly static and stiff. Hit target, play sound... Start Mode.. play loop.. hit target.. play clip.
Quoted from fosaisu:
Is there anything in the display and sound that makes me says "ahh, pinball and Star Wars together"? Yes there is. Take Rescue the Princess, for instance, which plays specific sound clips when you miss your shots (Han shouting "what the hell are you doing?" or Leia's sarcastic "you came in here, didn't you have a plan for getting out?"). Or Lightsaber Duel, which uses sound and lighting to great effect.
I didn't say the clips were random... they just have very weak correlation and there is nothing but Gandolf telling you that you scored a jackpot that is really pinball unique.
Quoted from fosaisu:
"Integration," "intermixing," "world under glass" etc. are of course all totally subjective, so I don't expect to change your or anyone else's mind. Just reflecting that not everyone views Star Wars as a horrible mishmash of clips and quotable quotes ripped thoughtlessly from the movies.
Still stand by the fact the theme is horribly integrated. Take away the hyperspace loop and what says Star Wars about this game but familiar media...
I believe he is referring to the fact TWD was a mule for prototyping Spike in the full size games. For awhile, Stern hauled around a TWD that had been implemented with Spike boards to show the platform off.
Quoted from fosaisu:
I get that people get an unquantifiable good feeling from supporting small businesses and underdogs (like Spooky or JJP) that they're not going to get buying a Stern game, and that can't be discounted. But otherwise, who really cares what management's motivation is?
It can be boiled down to "you reap what you sow"
Companies like JJP and Spooky are winning "champions" of their brand and customer loyalty because they are treating customers how they want to be treated and frequently are WOWing their customers. This is what builds loyalty. The product is only part of the relationship because this is not a 'one and done' type of ownership with a pin. There can be challenges, there are parts, there is service, there is communications, etc. All things Stern has been doing the polar OPPOSITE in in recent times.... instead insisting on having their cake and eat it too... pointing to the distribution network when it suits them to hide from customers, while trying to leverage the home market for increased ASPs and margins. Yet the distributors aren't supported by Stern in a way to do it.. So Stern just keeps pissing off customers... and then when the product slides at the same time.. you no longer have that 'brand loyalty' to soften the blow.. or have customers willing to cut you some slack.
In short.. if you treat your customers like shit... they are going to be far less willing to cut you slack or stand by you through tough times.
That's what Stern is starting to face as alternatives continue to grow in viability.
Quoted from ASOA:
I own most of them and they have given me ZERO problems
Hasn't seen it himself... so must question and insist those who have... A textbook example of
Quoted from Chambahz:
Find any defect on a Stern pin that should be replaced, and announce to the forum that this is standard Stern quality for everything they do.
When any Pinsider defends Stern, stating evidence of owning multiple machines, with zero issues, they get labelled a Stern-shill, or fan-boy.
You have it wrong..
It's more like
- People see similar issues on multiple games... from multiple runs... A logical person says "hrm, clearly not a one off"
- Others say "my game doesn't have that issue, so you must be exaggerating or a hater"
The lack of consistency is a concern... but Team Ancedote comes in and acts like it's a big fascade or campaign to hate on Stern because THEY'VE never experienced it, so clearly others are just biased.
Its only when people try to make universal "it happens to every game" type of stupid claims that Team Ancedote even has a defense. Yes, it doesn't happen to every game, but that doesn't mean its not happening.
Sometimes it's like watching 8yr olds argue in here.
Quoted from OLDPINGUY:
It seems obvious that the task of coding, withing the time frame of the development of the physical game,
is too big a task for the 1-3 people?? on programming.
Can anyone here share why some work cant be subbed out to India, Turkey, China, etc?
To contract work out you must have exactly what you want laid out on paper and defined. I'd wager most of the work is figuring out what they want the game to do at the code level... not so much implementing
Quoted from EchoVictor:
On a different note, I completely don't understand all the hubbub about the "bobbily boo" callout. Did no one see the movie?
» YouTube video
The gag stemmed from the wasp stream when the code was released where the really bad sound a like repeats the line over and over and over. The repetition and lack of context is made it a wtf moment that became the running gag...
Now back to our regularly scheduled programming
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