Quoted from bigd1979:
Sld be 5200-5400
I think you meant $4500-$4700. It's amazing how Stern's constant price hike starts make higher price points look reasonable.
Quoted from zr11990:
Five years ago a pin didn't cost 8K either. The higher they get the higher the quality should be and the more attention should be paid to details. I am not being negative but that is my opinion. The pin looks cool and I look forward to playing it but I wouldn't be busting a gut to buy it.
Prices are only rising because there is (1) demand and (2) people are willing to pay.
"the higher the quality should be and the more attention should be paid to details..."
That's your customer desire talking, not reality of pricing works in this case.
Quoted from zr11990:
Ok then, I guess that is why Gary is taking people for a ride with same old same old designs, code that is never finished, node boards that burn out, cabs that split, inserts that ghost and clear than comes off in sheets and yet you still bend over and pull down your pants and scream take my money. And no, that is not the way it works everywhere else. I do get capitalism and pricing according to what the market will bare but you don't HAVE to have a pinball machine. better quality demands a better price. You pay more for solid wood than particle board.
All those issues you listed are true to some extent or another...but look through this thread and you'll see there are plenty of people willing to buy at the current price. And pinside is only a sliver of the buying market. As long as people pay, they will continue to incrementally bump up the price.
Better quality definitely demands a better price. But a higher price in no way indicates (or guarantees) better quality.
Gary is taking no one for a ride. Anyone buying a $5K-$9K non-essential toy should be 100% aware of a manufacturer's history and quality practices. If not, that's their problem, not Stern's problem. Yet, somehow, folks kick and scream every single time a game has widespread issues (be it unsupported code, poorly designed electronics, etc). You drop the cash, you're taking a risk. Read the warranty... educate yourself.
Don't like it? Don't buy it.
Feel like taking a risk? Go for it.
Quoted from Rarehero:
Stern isn't selling creativity. They're selling a licensed product. They're not assuming that every potential customer already has a Stern pinball, let alone a similar Borg game. Their market: People who like GOTG & want a pinball machine.
Also, we go through this every time a new game is revealed. Someone always says "this is a clone of that" ...but slight differences in geometry & rulesets go a long way to make a similar game play TOTALLY different. Case in point - Borg tweaked Austin Powers into Iron Man. They literally have the same exact ramps and a similar bash toy - yet no one thinks the games play anything alike. He also tweaked Space Jam into Stern NBA. They play nothing alike. So, GOTG looks a bit like Met and/or IM...but, I guarantee the rules will be NOTHING like those games. IM = the simple yet challenging 2010-era rules. Met = Radically unique Lyman Sheets rules ...from the looks of it, GOTG is going to have more of a traditional story mode based rule set.
Great points, Rare. Besides, some of the GREATEST games ever from the vaunted WMS era are practically clones of another. Look at Lawlor's game progression... and the strong lines of similarities among his games ran from Williams right into Stern and into JJP.
Quoted from zr11990:
First of all, I wholeheartedly agree with everything you said except the part about Gary taking advantage. He knows that he is not delivering the quality for the price but he knows people are will buy it anyway. To me, that is still taking advantage but it is what it is.
This is a very cool looking game. We will see how it plays and exactly what features it has soon. I look forward to playing it but it isn't the most original game to come down the pike and due to that and all those reasons I mentioned earlier I will not be a buyer NIB or in the future. I am putting my cash aside for JJP POTC as his games have more features, better quality and originality. Not trying to shit on anyone's excitement toward this game just replying to the part of the conversation directed at me. For those that do buy it I hope it is all you hope for and you enjoy the hell out of it.
I understand your sentiment... but no one is forced to buy Stern games. That whole "beg to buy at Batman 66" was ingenious. People were lining up with $15K in hand for a game they had never played. The buyer is 100% at fault for any unhappiness.
How in God's name does Stern think it's okay to remove spinners??? That's a basic - relatively inexpensive - game feature that people love. BASIC!!!!
You've gotta be kidding me.
That company is pitifully shameless. I'd love to hear their rationale publicly spilled. It's obvious its their way of forcing folks to buy the more expensive model... but, geesh, it's almost childish.
Quoted from luvthatapex2:
Would I have loved to have the spinners?
This is my point. Spinners aren't a premium feature. They're a basic game feature that have been on games for decades. What's next, the spring on the plunger? It's utterly ridiculous that they strip very basic features from a game... especially when they integrate with scoring. TWD is a great example.
Quoted from jgentry:
The pro in a lot of ways is a better game. The spinner adds very little other then some sound effects. If you want a spinner then buy a premium or LE if it means that much. Stern has been doing this since they start the premium/LE thing so I don't really get everyone's whining now. All of Borg's pro models are pretty awesome and are the best values in pinball even without everyone precious spinners.
Negative... go play the TWD Premium and you'll see the spinners are more than just something that makes sound effects. And Stern has not been doing this since they started the Prem/LE. Ever play Star Trek Pro? Can you imagine that game with its spinner neutered?
It's just so cheap.
But, as I said before (and you pointed out) its up to the buyer to decide if they'll support these practices. Stern can throw whatever they want onto the market, ultimately buyers are the ones that have to decide to support it or not.
Quoted from jar155:
Uh, you think it takes more time to clip videos than to animate things with dots? The LCD simplifies that process a lot. And rules are deeper on some games, not all. B/W developers had to deal with more archaic audio systems, smaller storage space, lower bandwidth hardware, and lots of challenges that have been solved with improving technology. It was harder back then than it is now.
At some point you have to be honest though. Stern isn't even trying to do anything unique here. This is a legit recycling of code and just changing the name of things.
VIP - Hadron
Crank it Up - Upgrade
Choose Your Track - Choose Your Mission
You qualify multiballs the same basic way
Playfield multipliers function the same basic way
Templates are great for marketing and sales reports. For pinball? Eh, that's weak. Pace of release is an excuse, not a reason. What we end up with games that play just fine, but they're ultimately disposable. I guess that's fine if you're a location player, but it's not the best for building a collection around.
That's all I really have to say on that. Keep making excuses for Stern and giving them a pass though. That will make them REALLY start to push themselves and get creative.
I get where you're going with this. But to be fair, the vaunted Williams games that we all enjoy so much have lots of commonalities across the board. Heck, look at the progression of Lawyer games. If that were today, people would be freaking out from Whirlwind to Funhouse to Addams to TZ to Road Show.
There's only so many ways to skin a cat and Stern is a manufacturer. Yes, our little Pinside segment of players wants this Guardians machine to be wickedly unique... but 95% of people that will ever touch the game will be drawn to its art... will chuckle at the calls outs... and will get a kick out of dumping a few bucks into the game before moving on to doing something else. Know what? Probably 100% of them will never think twice about the originality of what they just experienced.
You gotta frame these machines for what they are (and what they were back in the heyday of the 80s/90s).
Wow. Game looks fast and fun... pretty much just like IM.
The LCD is a disappointment. At times it looks like they were just running the movie. Granted, I only watched about 20 mins of the stream, but the package in its entirety looks rather disjointed.
I think early buyers are going to be in for a LOOOONG ride.
Quoted from Potatoloco:
I'm a young 30s guy that just started collecting pins about 2 years ago, so I'm not familiar on the history of other pin releases in terms of code completion as I never really followed reveals on message boards before then. I own all Sterns, but at the end of the day, I'm a fan of pinball regardless of who puts the game out.
Stern's business model seems to be going the way a lot of PC game developers have gone over the past few years. Present a product that is in its early stage release and sell that to the public. How many games does that make that are currently out in which the code isn't finished? After watching for a couple of minutes last night, I just can't justify buying this game. I can't justify my NIB purchases to be incomplete games regardless of what the theme is. I hope that it does come along in development and I can add it to my lineup.
That being said, other companies out there, there's a massive gap in the market right now for a pin company to have a release ready game that is properly marketed from the get-go. Please, someone, step up.
"Seems to be going?"... a plain and simple "has gone, long ago, " fits much better.
You want release ready games? JJP Dialed In... Spooky TNA.
Quoted from jgentry:
Problem is that they are not ready at release. Stern is the only one that within a month of taking orders give or take 2 weeks is shipping games in mass quantity. Other companies simply can't make games at anything that resembles the rate of stern. That's not a negative against them but if someone is looking to buy a game right now it will be several months before they can have either POTC or TNA. Sure they can get DI, WOZ, or TH, but most people want what's new and fresh and those games were all announced over 1+ year for DI, 3+ for TH, 5+ for WOZ. Until another company can say here's the game, shipping in mass in 4 weeks, stern will continue to dominate the market as people do not like waiting. People will have already played GOTG for months and sold them on the secondary market while they are waiting on other companies to finish their order back logs.
Of course... but, what do you consider to be a "game." For me, it's a fully functional machine. I don't consider what Stern typically pushes out the door a month after release to be a game. Sure, you can have the physical item in your game room... but until that code comes through, all you have is semi-functional pinball machine.
Everyone can view this differently, but it's a gamble. It it can take years to get a machine that has code that's making it operate at or near its potential. That wasn't the case with DI. Isn't the case for TNA. So, yes, I'm patiently waiting for my TNA to be built, but I'm ok with waiting. When it arrives, it's going to be fully playable.
I feel sorry for the "gotta have right now" crowd. It's almost like a curse to have that hanging over your decision making process.
Quoted from fosaisu:
Seems a tad melodramatic. Whatever Gary's goals may be, I doubt that the many experienced hands Stern has making machines have given up on "creativity" and "fun." And I'd have a hard time taking much seriously from anyone that thinks none of Stern's games made in the past few years have offered "fun experiences."
It all depends on what you're comparing Stern to. I wouldn't disagree with what you're saying. But, I'm also not 100% convinced that a passion for pinball is what's driving Stern. They definitely have a passion for manufacturing pinball... but I'm not always so sure they have a passion for the game as a driving force.
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