As of the last MET update, the spinners actually have a scoring rule now that the current pro cannot emulate. It's not the same.

Rob

Was pre adolescence when the song , "Brandy"
came out.
I had a crush on a girl in a song, at 11.
Love to see sounds from the second movie,
but not sure my ego could stand hearing
the song repeated on the game.
On topic and off...

That's a bummer for MET owners that installed the after-market spinner. I wonder if that was intentional by STERN...

You people really get worked up about some spinners. It's not like back in the 1980 Bally days when they were some of the main focus for points. In most stern games they really do not do a lot. The only one I can think of is War Machine on ACDC. Otherwise its just a thrown in add on with minimal scoring.

This apologist act sucks. It IS stupid that Stern creates a gameplay split between their models. It splits the code base (thereby slowing down code updates)and it artificially increases the costs of getting a fully featured game. They should have gameplay 100% equal between models and make all the differences cosmetic. Holding back a few dollars in features to charge a few thousand more to have them is honestly the worst thing any manufacturer is doing right now.

But go ahead and keep making apologies for it so Stern doesn't have to change. That'll continue being GREAT for pinball.

Yeah, and that sucks too. Spinners and pop bumpers are horribly implemented by Stern these days. Pop bumpers don't do anything but give you random awards inside a closed in nest. They put them in there for bullet points. All Stern really cares about these days are ramp shots, orbit shots, and bash toys.

They certainly still could've created a Pro/Prem feature gap by only having 1 spinner on the Pro and 2 on the Premium. Doesn't ACDC have a mode where you have to load the cannon a bunch and on the Prem, you have the crossover ramp enabled so you can get it from both ramps, but on the Pro you have to hit the right ramp only?

If the spinner is integral, they should've stuck only 1 spinner on the Pro and made the spinner accumulation easier on the Premium by having 2. That way the coding is no different, yet the Premium has a feature over the Pro.

For better or worse, the Good-Better-Best model of sales is really popular right now, not just in pinball.

It's pretty standard to position offerings that way. Not saying I think it's perfect within pinball, just saying that it's pretty normal these days.

The Met Pro spinner mod never made sense anyway. It was tied to the targets, so you were basically just getting a target hit over and over and over.

I don't care much about rules or spinner usage in the code. They just add so much as far as shot satisfaction especially with a shaker. It's such an easy win, how much does it really save Stern. Its worth it just for the perception.

Despite my claims of sucky spinner usage or removal, I'm still excited by this machine. I want to get time on a premium so bad. It looks like just straightforward fun.

You would think there would be real costs to stern to have to make changes to coding, designs, assembly line, etc. for such tiny differences like leaving out spinners. How many extra premiums do they need to sell over pros to make up those costs? At least with the LE changes, generally there isn't any need to redesign or code anything different, so its just the extra cost of the materials and whatever costs of having the assembly line less streamlined. I realize the good, better, best thing is good marketing, but those types of costs of differentiating your product really matter when you are not allocating them over millions of product units.

Oh that’s funny...I was just thinking that the endless whiney Bitch act sucks.

But hey to each their own. People should keep complaining about games they are never going to buy and acting outraged that stern wants more money for more stuff.

If you only thin selfishly as a customer... maybe

If you step outside yourself and look at it like a business... you'd realize your ideal is far from it. Which is why most industries have tiers of product. "One size fits all" is usually a stupid idea... because not all buyers have the same interests, tolerances, and motivations. The key is making sure the gain from the tiers does not outweigh the costs of doing so... in both your net and in confusing the market. Which is why the more distinctive the tiers are... and better aligned with the target customer tiers... the better.

Amen, they seem to be willfully making pops as inconsequential as possible, for whatever reason. Design dictate from above?

Absolutely not. Look how sweet the Woodbury spinner is on TWD. You play the pro with that missing and it's not the same game.

Actually, the way Borg designs games is more cost effective than most Pro/Prem differences. Spinners are a simple stock part. Look at a game like GB - Each version has a different Slimer mech. Totally different ramp designs. Different playfields. There's more customization per model, which costs more all around. Borg's models are very very similar. Each version has the same Groot mech, the same ramps, the same drop target toy. By designing this way, I think it always allows his Pros to be gameplay equal compared to the Prem/LE. That's good for players, that's good for production, that's good for programming.

So, spinners - I guarantee the only difference will be some kind of switch frenzy mode that will be a little easier on the Prem/LE due to spinners (unless they raise the amount of hits required to compensate). Yes, spinners are fun and tactile, but most people won't really notice they're not there.

The pro in a lot of ways is a better game. The spinner adds very little other then some sound effects. If you want a spinner then buy a premium or LE if it means that much. Stern has been doing this since they start the premium/LE thing so I don't really get everyone's whining now. All of Borg's pro models are pretty awesome and are the best values in pinball even without everyone precious spinners.

Anyone else find the Sternpinball Inc youtube video's pro ART BLADES better than the LE? I did, I hope they offer good armor, like GB, and offer a Milano topper.

These are screen grabs from the video, don't butcher me on the quality.

GOTG Art Blades 1 (resized).PNG
GOTG Art Blades 4 (resized).PNG
GOTG Art Blades 2 (resized).PNG
GOTG Art Blades 5 (resized).PNG

TWD's left spinner is awesome during Well Walker MB! I love the sound and flasher effect as well. playing a Pro just isn't the same... It's really a shame that Stern pulls the spinner's out of the Pro models such as TWD and Met. It just seems weird to play a Met Pro and have naked orbits with no spinners. I suppose it's smart on Stern's part though. I would have opted for a TWD Pro instead of an LE if it wasn't for the spinner and walker bombs.

Yes. Spinners could/should play a much larger role in the rules but they can't because Stern would rather save $10 on a pro and rip them out. Whatever, I'm out of this abusive relationship with Stern and their NiB offerings.

absolutly agree that it is less of an issue in this case (or other Borg games) than in most, but I was just speaking in general I find it hard to believe that selling a few more premiums over pros can typically justify these costs increases. Even when it does pay for the costs, is it worth creating extra animosity against the brand? But what do I know, smarter people than me have presumably run the numbers on it and determined it makes sense.

I think the reason for that is pretty obvious: this reveal went pretty damn smoothly and the “dark night for stern” crowd was left with a bad case of blue balls. So...gotta Bitch about something, right?

I’d personally have stuck with the “where are the 70s hits?!” angle, instead of the spinner thing that pretty much nobody cares about. People don’t have emotional connections to spinners like they do with music so that gambit resonates a little more and the complaints seem a little more authentic.

Negative... go play the TWD Premium and you'll see the spinners are more than just something that makes sound effects. And Stern has not been doing this since they started the Prem/LE. Ever play Star Trek Pro? Can you imagine that game with its spinner neutered?

It's just so cheap.

But, as I said before (and you pointed out) its up to the buyer to decide if they'll support these practices. Stern can throw whatever they want onto the market, ultimately buyers are the ones that have to decide to support it or not.

I wonder how many airballs will get stuck in Groot's hair?

It’s not about saving $10 it’s about steering people to the premium.

PF supports are about saving money but at least you can add them yourself. Spinners you can add but not the code support.

“Who brought the Groot”?

Will it get old fast? Nah. Gonna be awesome!

It's not one size fits all. It's keeping all the core functionality in line. It's actually harder on Stern themselves to split the code base. They have two targets to code for, rather than one.

JJP and Spooky have one target. They differentiate their lines through cosmetic differences and they still make their LE/CE models mean something to the buyer. You would end up with better code, which is again better for EVERY owner, regardless of which model they have.

How you can possibly think it's "better" to split the feature and code base is beyond me. It's literally worse for every party involved. Buyers get less for their money, and Stern has to do extra programming because they have two different environments. Premium features get underused, because they are often a minority feature, so there's not as much motivation to code up those things. The Ecto Goggles were criminally underused, but if they had been in every model, I'm sure more would have been done with them.

When I play a Dialed In, no matter which model I step up to, it's going to be the same game. There's a lot to be appreciated by that. With a Stern, there is going to be some arbitrarily cut feature (spinners or drops, usually) or some shoehorned extra (GoTLE upper playfield) in there.

Let the designers make the best game possible without having to come up with something to cut or something to add. Let them build the best game they can with the BoM allowed, and then sell the premiums and LEs for extra by adding more detailed toys, trim packages, and unique cosmetics.

I installed spinners on my pro because I just like hitting them and hearing the cool sound effects since I have mine integrated with the Total Lightshow/sound caller mod.

I've owned an le and a premium and played a bunch on a pro. The pro plays the best and is a slightly harder game. I've owned both versions of ST and it wouldn't have bothered me if the pro didn't have a spinner. A little sparkling thing that spins is not going to determine if it's a good game or not.

It's pretty silly just how upset some of you are about spinners of all things. GOTG looks like a loaded pro and you lose almost nothing game play wise when getting a pro.

Spinners are only lame these days because Stern makes them lame. They were once a really well integrated feature in pinball.

well if they are lame then why the bitchfest over the pro not having them? As you upset about the lack of spinner on the pro or the way stern uses spinners period?

If there is no sound/video (music, authentic actor voices, or movie clips) integration from the movie into the game, I wouldn’t be interested. I didn’t initially buy twd for this reason and waited a year after the release when pinsiders did remixes. Lest you think I am anti-stern, I am out of jjpotc for this reason. Prices are too high to be missing such fundamental things. Potc without Johnny depp, movie music or movie clips, just isn’t something I’m interested in. This is what makes the hobbit, tspp, Lotr, etc., so good to me.

i like the pro on this and i have been down on stern. i actually dont like the arms on pre/le blocking the ramps.
the pro looks almost the same, add some toys and rails, save a couple thousand and good to go. now that this is released i am looking for the next one, i like to see new games on the market. not gonna buy nib anymore but could see getting this in a couple of years. wheres jaws now??

Both. They should be there. If they were on every model, the coders are more likely to use them meaningfully. It's not just spinners though, it's any gameplay element that they strip out for the pros. They don't need to do that. People still buy LEs/CEs from JJP or Spooky despite no differences in gameplay.

Give LEs and premiums these sorts of things:

- Power coating
- Mirrored backglasses
- Higher detailed toys
- Included shaker motors
- Included headphone kits
- Easy subwoofer connections
- Toppers
- Unique art
- Extra swag (exclusive t-shirt or art print)

Stop taking away gameplay features. That sucks.

Ah that ugly trim color on the LE reminds me of all those left over WWE trim pieces they could not sell

Agreed. It would be much better for the code as you have pointed out to just have one gameplay version.

I don’t want a 8k Pro. Strip away!!

Am i the only one in Pinside to love stock callouts and music on TWD? It's really strange, i tried some custom code but i much prefer stock callouts instead of voice actors from the show. You don't play with Rick's team in the game, you have your proper team and i think Stern made a really good work for this pin, maybe one of their best. This pin is perfect in every way.

was litterally about to post this. JJP's base full featured game is $8k+. They dont strip away cause if they did no one would pay 8k for a stripped game, just like many dont pay 5k for a stern pro and go for the premium. There is something for every one, you can not have your cake and eat it too.

True, Stern's adding work for themselves by doing it this way. So why do it? They're asking people to pay $1800 to upgrade to the Premium, and it seems obvious that they'll get a lot more sales at the Premium level if there's a "real" difference between the two, as opposed to just alternate art. I'd bet they would lose half or more of their Premium sales if they made the change you suggest (in this thread alone there are several posters who say they went with Premiums specifically to get the extra play-related features). I'd also bet that they factored in the cost of increased coding and support when they decided to adopt the three-tiered approach.

Look, I get why you don't like this policy. If Stern would change its ways you'd never consider buying anything other than a Stern Pro. But that's the point, right? Stern's job is to make it hard for you not to buy the Premium.

Nope. The sound package I went with was from SKB. 95% stock with additional callouts and a couple different tunes. Nothing taken out.

I think you might be, I hated them.

Edit: you and chuckwurt.

No doubt. Crowing about JJP when they dont offer anything close to the price point of a Stern Pro is hilarious.

Well that's the problem you will never resolve. Stern sees it the opposite way - They are adding gameplay features to the Premiums. Just like the upper playfields for GOT and Aero.

As someone pointed out earlier, you can never make a $ for $ comparison, as these don't add up to the added price. It's all about packaging and getting people to upgrade. If it didn't make $ they wouldn't do it, and the coding changes could be very small, especially if it was planned for at the beginning.

Never thought I’d ever agree with anything Jar head has to say but I think it sucks that Stern removed the spinners also and I think that gameplay should be the same between all three models and the Premium/LE models should be cosmetic differences only. Even if the spinners don’t mean much as far as gameplay, I still like trying to rip them so hard that they fly off of the machine!

They don't have to. That's the point! Are you guys all dense? For real.

It doesn't add $3000 to put a couple of spinners on a game. Stop pretending that it does and stop giving Stern a pass. Given how cheap the components they use, they wouldn't be eating into their margins much at all. Heck, by simplifying development, they could possibly save money over time.

We're at the prices we're at for stripped down pros because we allowed it to happen. Apologist behavior got us here.

If they want to make good money they do.

Long live the stripped down Pro!!

Now people are being abused by stern LOL. Dramatic much???

Exactly. Stern's viewing spinners as an added value extra, but we know it's a $5 item. That won't cause a price hike on the Pro. "Bling" like moving Rocket & opening orb are the type of differences that are OK since they don't affect anything the ball interacts with. Would be nice to see spinners on Pro, and some other bling on the Prem/LE to compensate. Something like figurines of the other characters that light up when their shots are collected...or a ship with lighting or movement....or a cool topper.

I venture to guess Stern knows a bit more about their “BOM” and what’s working for them versus what’s not

A few people that don’t like the way things are isn’t gonna change a thing

Let’s see how the LE sales go this time. Maybe people keep buying em. I doubt it but this is a great theme imo, again

Stern is packaging and selling fun pins. Hard core anal pinheads will always bitch and whine about this or that. That’s part of the fun and pinball experience!