(Topic ID: 239350)

Wonka is Coming !!! Who’s in?

By Beez

5 months ago

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  • 2,283 posts
  • 383 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 11 days ago by smalltownguy2
  • Topic is favorited by 69 Pinsiders


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#602 4 months ago
Quoted from Greenandwhite:

Does anybody else think the marketplace could get flooded with Munsters, POTC, and other recent releases to make room for JJP #5? There is only so much $ and space for the vast majority of Pinsiders.

It's just another pinball, like every other new pin that people work themselves up into a lather over. It hasn't even been revealed and everyone is already selling their collections to buy it? Take a cold shower, calm down.

I hope it's great, innovative, exciting, all that and a bag of chips. Some will love it, some won't care, many will think it's too expensive either way. Pinside's hype and bust boom is getting out of control though, people need to take it down a notch.

#698 4 months ago
Quoted from Asael:

Ok I don't understand all this hype about this movie.

I honestly think it's aged badly. It's simply not a good looking film anymore, the sets look low budget and corny now, and the acting that isn't Gene Wilder chewing the scenery is stagey and over exaggerated. If you haven't seen it in a while and just remember the memes and "I said good day sir!" you can watch this scene:

and see if you agree. If you love the movie I'm not trying to be a jerk, just honest about what it looks like. It's really dated. I love Roald Dahl's books, I think it was a fun movie for the time (the Tim Burton remake is a looker but a shitty film, the original might not hold up that well but it's still better). But killer pinball theme? The hype is out of control.

It's already a slot machine, it's an available license, and JJP took it. Probably hoping the candy rainbows would be another WOZ since that one still sells. The hype and frothing over some rumors is peak Pinside though.

#704 4 months ago
Quoted from pinballonthemark:

Now, think if this magical moment can be felt experiencing this JJP pinball machine during the reveal. I want to experience that magic under glass that was evident with the 90s machines.

I hope it's everything you want.

#705 4 months ago
Quoted from iloveplywood:

So your point is that because the hype is out of control that this must mean it's actually not a popular theme for pinball? Or that because the theme doesn't excite you that everyone here is wrong and will eventually figure this out? Just trying to follow.
I admit I watched the film the other day and the special effects seemed dated and I cringed at times. On the other hand my 16 year old son plopped down on the couch without being asked and watched it and loved Gene Wilder as Wonka and was listening to Oompa loompa songs today on his phone. So it's not completely dated.

The movie is fine. I like the movie. JP is a great editor and interface designer, I'm always happy to see what he's doing. But excited for clips from this film playing constantly would definitely not describe my feelings. Maybe it won't have that. Sounds like that would disappoint the people who love the theme though, so I doubt that's the play.

#742 4 months ago
Quoted from JodyG:

The movie itself is not the end all-be all of movies by any means. What Wonka is as a theme? It offers an opportunity of literally an unlimited palette of world under glass opportunity. The imagination runs wild with cool ideas, because this movie is chocked full of imaginative concepts. Wonka is the kind of fantasy world that really works well for pinball.

I'm sure JJP will do a good job with it. Even their least interesting game for me, Hobbit (playfield too wide open and just not enjoyable to shoot, not a fan of the movies), is a complete package. I have no doubt people who are excited for film clips and quotes and references and toys will be happy campers. I don't wish anyone disappointment, I'm not being sour on the company or excitement.

People clearly disagree with me on how the film has aged, and I don't want to sound like I don't like the movie, because I've seen it many times and I do. I guess after Dialed In had a polarizing reception nostalgia is the play again now. I just think original ideas offer much more of an unlimited palette than using a film we've all seen. Watching the bitching about Black Knight is just more evidence I'm off alone in the wilderness on this one, people want their licenses.

#748 4 months ago
Quoted from iloveplywood:

I'm glad you're happy for the little people who are excited by film clips, quotes, and toys. Yes, for some (most?) theme adds a lot to a game.

Theme matters. This is indisputable. Whether or not you're tired of pinball being dominated by licenses is something else. Here's what bums me out: almost no one here has seen the game, just some little hints. JJP doesn't skimp on toys and features, whatever you think of their games or prices, so excitement is fine, really. Be hype, it's okay.

But ... the hype is fever pitch because it's a familiar theme, and people are all in without seeing it. You're basically an idiot if you run a pinball company and don't use a license now. Even Spooky is doing licenses. And it's because of this phenomenon. We basically beg for the familiar. "I can't wait to hear my favorite movie quotes!" I pine for the unfamiliar, the surprise, the new thing, not the old thing.

I just wish there was a better mix of original game ideas too. After Dialed In didn't catch fire with people maybe JJP is done with trying, I dunno. The 90s pinball we all say we love was a mix. Most of the beloved games from that era like AFM and MM were original, and there were licenses that were still 'free and open' like Scared Stiff and Monster Bash. Those mixed familiar with new, not just staying safe.

Quoted from iloveplywood:

Honestly, it sounds like we are both a little bummed by the quick turn on BK by a lot of people here. I just don't think it has anything to do with it being an original theme (or Wonka).

Actually I think it has to do with it being too original. It's not really a 'new' game, it's the third in a series, it's basically a license. But people had their own visions of what it should be. They wanted it to be about medieval knights for instance, and don't like the monsters, whatever. It took a little different turn, and is getting blowback for it. It's hard to judge it on its own merits because it comes with the baggage of two previous games, and what people already expected because of that. Nevermind that the BK2000 backglass has a sci fi landscape and demonic castle on it.

Quoted from iloveplywood:

Anyway, I'll end this post by saying I loved your work in Alien. I thought you did a great job with what you had to work with -- I might be biased though as I really liked the theme.

Thanks, and I'm glad you like it. For all the issues I think the package evokes the films well, and I don't think it's a bad thing. I don't automatically hate licenses. But that said, so many of the nightmares around making that game were related to the restrictions a license brings. For every little thing it helped there was something it hurt. There's no question my experience with that colors my views of how games are made these days.

#753 4 months ago

You can't just be "not a license", just like you can't just be "hand drawn" and have people love the art. Theme still matters. Look at Full Throttle. Hand drawn art! No license! Really boring theme no on wanted!

Dialed In might be a good game, but no matter how many people try and patiently explain it's not a "cell phone game", it's a cell phone game. That's what people see. It's how the game was promoted (I was there, I got the comic book). It's how it was named. And it was, in my opinion, a misstep. A lot of work was put into it, and it just needed a different promotional angle. Everyone has suggestions, call it Disaster City or whatever, but they're all similar in thinking, fix the cell phone image problem.

Oktoberfest, not a license, great. But ... do people really want an Oktoberfest game? I'm not seeing the excitement. I think they should have picked something easier to sell and theme personally.

What 90s unlicensed games do we love? Games about magicians! Attacking castles! Defending Earth from UFOs! Be adventurous, use that imagination.

Quoted from solarvalue:

I actually don't think this is true.

I mean, we can agree to disagree, but the threads and posts are all right here to see. It's not subtle. Everyone has their own back story and motivations, I'm just talking about on the whole. And it's like this for everything. Munsters was the same things. Hype hype hype. Now it's crickets because the game ended up being too simple for most of the players here. Theme only takes you so far. But how many Munsters are for sale now, because people blindly bought on the theme out of love for the show? It's a simple trick, and it works.

#789 4 months ago
Quoted from TheFamilyArcade:

But I look at it way differently. What I’m tired of is the lousy CHOICE of themes and to compound things, the lousy implementation of themes, even when they’re good themes.

Dead right. There are a million theme ideas out there that are good. Find one you can work with. Don't pick something that won't give you great assets and free rein to do cool things. I'm sure JJP learned their lesson from Pirates, can you imagine Wonka with no actor shots?

If you think a license is the way to sell games, you're probably right. But for all the time and effort a game takes, and the money they cost when they're done, why not make it the best you can from the start? Be a little pickier, take a little time to get it right up front.

It was amazing how many things on Alien we had no clue if we were going to be able to use until years into the project. But it was horribly managed, and dealing with a movie studio license across two countries a giant pain in the ass. If you can't find out for sure ahead of time then move on to one you can.

Find someone you can work with, make something cool together.

#1318 4 months ago

Arguing is pointless. Enjoy your games.

#1371 4 months ago
Quoted from iceman44:

It's pretty apparent that David Thiel isn't working on JJP games anymore.
And that's NOT a good thing

I can't honestly say I have any real faith in Deep Root, been burned too many times. Show me shipping games, then we can talk. But tell you what, the fact that they've got David Thiel is one hell of an asset. Not just because he's good at his job, of course he is, but also really a good voice to have in the room when it comes to just about anything pinball.

Why he and JJP parted ways is his business, but imo they're worse off for no longer working with him.

#1378 4 months ago
Quoted from Zavadoza:

David said why he went with deeproot. It's in his 3 hour interview with buffalo pinball. 3 year guaranteed contract.

Oh I know exactly why, but as I said, his business.

Quoted from iceman44:

David, Aurich, Ferret and Florida coder (can't think of name) here in the states did an awesome job to bring that game together.

Florida = Brian Dominy

#1380 4 months ago
Quoted from iceman44:

Ahhh yes, Brian. Working on remake and updated code

Could be. I’m not involved is all I can say for sure.

2 weeks later
#1487 3 months ago

"The flippers felt weak" is the comment you hear about every game from every show. It just happens. The hotel or convention center or whatever can never keep up. I'm sure they'll feel fine at home or at a reasonable location.

I think it's odd that no one has managed to notice all these magnets that are supposedly all over the playfield. Seems like they're either not really coded, or kinda pointless. I would have stuck the BOM into a noticeable toy instead, but I find magnets that just add a little random action basically boring even when you notice them working, so that's my personal bias.

#1499 3 months ago
Quoted from Captain-Flint:

Don't say it's over hyped.

It was 100% over-hyped. JJP made a mistake with who they gave early access to, clearly. I mean, people need to be better about buying in, especially given the source in some cases, but it did more harm than help I suspect.

I'm not saying it's a bad game! I haven't played it, could be super fun, this isn't a criticism of the game. Just that when you raise expectations super high people's imaginations run wild, and they start thinking it's going to have things that aren't even realistic (chocolate river anyone) and then normal, real world engineering can't live up to it.

I think it's better to not have anyone say a word before hand, reveal it, and then be ready to ship. If Black Knight had a bunch of podcasters raving about the super cool toy, and wait until you figure out how you're going to battle the Knight, and just foaming at the mouth, and then it was shown? No way the toy would have matched expectations.

#1560 3 months ago
Quoted from smalltownguy2:

Not having a virtual ball lock carry-over on the SE will pretty much mean you will NEVER see Wonkavator multi-ball on a SE from a casual player.

This multiball is sounding pretty dumb to be honest. It's so hard to get that the only way people will see it is with lock stealing across multiple players or games? That's a feature that's fun for simple games, and doesn't really belong on complicated ones.

I have a TNA with lock stealing, I've owned EATPM that had lock stealing, but those are really basic multiballs that present a simple risk/reward strategy for ball locking. Do you lock because you're likely to get the multiball yourself? Or skip it because you're afraid you'll drain before you start it?

If Wonka is so hard that it takes multiple games before people are seeing the multiball then that's just a terrible design. I have to think people are exaggerating about it, because otherwise that hilariously bad. Especially if they're tying one of the 'expensive' toys to it.

#1742 3 months ago

You guys could just stop taking the bait. Just because someone posts doesn't mean they're worth responding to, practice a little discipline. You know what bothers trolls? Being ignored.

#1751 3 months ago
Quoted from Tranquilize:

I don't know why, but I can't help thinking internet ignorance can be healed.

It’s not ignorance, it’s just concern trolling. Make a game out of enjoying not responding. You’ll find it can be it’s own satisfaction.

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#1767 3 months ago
Quoted from Troz:

We'll be streaming Willy Wonka this evening at 6pm PDT from AYCE Gogi for anyone that wants to watch!

This should be good, Karl is a serious player. Maybe he can actually start the multiball that's supposed to take all day across multiple games.

#1783 3 months ago
Quoted from Gasoline:

Watched the stream and it was well executed. Best camera use I've seen yet.

Karl has in my opinion the best camera/feed setups in pinball. Even got the mini screen up so you could really see how they're using it clearly, lots of helpful instructions, I really like the concept.

Quoted from Gasoline:

People were commenting that the sound seems tweaked in a positive way since the reveal (less casino sounding, more sound clip integration). Honestly, it would be hard for me to call out any major sound differences since the reveal but the sound felt different.

I'll be honest: I don't care for the sound package. It's too whizzy chirp chirp bleep bloop bright and dingy for me. I know this kind of thing is totally subjective, and it fits the theme, and it's just my personal taste, but I could never own this game after listening to it today, it would drive me nuts.

Quoted from Gasoline:

Code still seemed to be lacking significant synch between voice/vids and adding new call outs for the most part. Still has the Grandpa Joe voice actor making most of the commentary.

Unless there's some licensing problem or something I can't imagine JJP isn't going to deliver a totally polished game. I still think it's crazy to buy a game on potential, instead of after the code feels good and you've played some good games on it, from any company. But if you like it now I'm sure it will just get better. When have they ever not delivered on code? Stern has a mixed track record, that's just being honest right? But JJP has no badly coded or incomplete feeling games.

JJP has two problems right now imo:

1. They don't wait to announce until they're ready to ship games, and lose all this momentum; people are fickle and impulsive and get hyped up and deflated, it's just human nature. Why not build them and then announce it? It wasn't even a real secret before the reveal right? So just wait until you're ready to get games into hands, get those wallets open.

2. I hope whatever problem there is on the POTC playfields is a solved issue. Is the clear coat not being left to cure long enough because they're trying to get games out? They can't do another game with that chipping or people are gonna freak out.

It's an issue on TNA too, and mine is bubbled up around the star posts, just not chipped. Whatever is up, clear coat formulas or bad plastics or over tightening or not enough cure time or whatever, people get mad when their playfields chip where the ball isn't even touching.

#1784 3 months ago
Quoted from Nokoro:

Will this be on YouTube later? I would love to watch it in full when I have more time.

You can watch it right now with the Twitch archive here, no need to wait: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/425409636

#1794 3 months ago
Quoted from KingBW:

I think the 60 day window between prototype reveal and production is fine ... just my opinion.

I think it's losing them sales. This isn't my problem or anything, but I don't think it's a good business model. The hype for Wonka peaked way too early I suspect.

The chipping playfield part seems like a much bigger potential sales killer though honestly, I hope that's solved. I'm kinda disturbed that this is turning into a multi-company thing, what is up with that? These games cost too much for this kind of ugly problem, collectors don't want to see it even if it doesn't directly affect gameplay.

#1826 3 months ago
Quoted from arcadem:

If you decide to bail on WONKA now, I think you will regret it later.

Why? That asinine.

Just buy it later if you want it later. Don't buy games on potential, buy them because they're already good. If they get better later? Bonus! If they're not good enough now? Close your wallet and wait, use a little adult patience.

Quoted from arcadem:

Got to get money flowing and keep the doors open.

That is definitely not anyone on Pinside's problem. If JJP goes out of business then it's because they ran business badly, not because people didn't buy a bunch of unfinished product to support them.

#1831 3 months ago
Quoted from romulusx:

I guess you could say the same thing about Stern Pinball buying unfinished product from them right ?

Obviously, yes. I don't understand this comment, are you trying to turn this into some childish Stern vs JJP thing? Don't be dumb, don't wear company jerseys or root for them like sports teams. Don't buy unfinished games from anyone unless you're fully aware of what that means, that's just common sense.

Quoted from f3honda4me:

If code is still unfinished at release, it gives me pause to think about buying it later when the code is actually completed.

What's the rush? I get it, new pin, it's exciting. Fun to get in on, fun to show off, etc. But after that first couple days of New Pin Feeling™ wears off and you have a game you're not sure you're really excited enough about?

Not saying don't buy it if you want it. Do you. Some people just like supporting companies, or enjoy the journey of watching a pin develop. I'm sure JJP will deliver a complete game. I honestly have no doubts about that. But will it be the game you want it to be? That's the rub, buy it for what it is, not what you hope it will turn into, because whatever work they do it might not be that thing you imagine.

Edit to add this:

Quoted from romulusx:

I’ll be honest,I do root for JJP

Fine, whatever. But if rooting for them means blindly buying anything they do and encouraging others to do the same just because you're a fan then that's dumb. If you hope they do well and like their work and enjoy their games that's different. I'm down for the second thing, and not for the first.

#1836 3 months ago
Quoted from f3honda4me:

We played it extensively at MGC. We really like how it plays. But the package needs to be completed. At MGC you couldn’t really hear it anyways. But in a home environment you hear it and now hearing it via streams it needs a lot more of the IP in the sound and a bit more video/etc.

Makes sense to me. So wait a bit, and buy if it feels better.

I don’t think I’m espousing sage wisdom here, it’s just common sense. This isn’t a limited commodity that will be available now or never. If they improve it and you like it? Buy it. If for some reason it doesn’t turn out like you hoped? You’ll be glad you waited.

I really think this forum can both be excited and exercise basic restraint. Be into the game, talk about it, and get it if and when it’s right for you. Your neighbors won’t know or care either way.

#1884 3 months ago
Quoted from jimwe5t:

Who gets tired of WW iconic scenes?

Me. Any game that just plays a bunch of movie clips gets old pretty quickly. It was something we very specifically avoided on Alien, and while I'm obviously biased, I wish more games would follow the kind of work Kelly did. You never have to sit there watching a long clip, it's all snappy and fast, edited super hard. Hobbit has way too many long clips for my taste, definitely get old to me. Guardians of the Galaxy is even worse, long clips but without the right sound, what a mess.

If you love a movie then watch the movie. If you get a game that plays a ton of scenes from it constantly you're just risking no longer loving the movie, as you get sick of them.

I'm with the people who think POTC is a better game for not being able to use the actors, it saved the media package from feeling dreadfully repetitive fast. It might make it more 'generic pirate theme' in some ways, but imo that's not a bad thing. They did a good job with it. DI and then POTC means there were back to back packages with a lot of creativity from JJP.

Quoted from jeffro01:

Such a gross overreaction it's almost comical to actually read... POTC is amazing despite the out of box tweaks that we've had to make thus far (we have a POTC CE) and it didn't even remotely factor into our Wonka CE pre-order decision...

People's playfields are literally chipping apart, nobody is overreacting, they're rightly concerned. For the kind of money these games cost it's not acceptable to have them look like shit after barely being played. This isn't about tweaking mechs, it's about fundamental quality control with lasting repercussions. JJP would be fools to ignore it.

#1905 3 months ago
Quoted from zaphX:

Get David Thiel in there to produce some more theme-appropriate but unique songs!

I can promise you that’s not happening.

1 month later
#2130 62 days ago

I'm biased, David Thiel is both a friend and someone who I've had the pleasure of working with (what a master of his craft, true professional and also deeply passionate about what he does). And I'm sure he's glad he dodged the Wonka bullet. But man, JJP has gotta figure out what to do without him, because bad sound just murders a game, and good sound makes a game that's only okay seem pretty great. Try playing Tron with the sound off.

I dunno, I honestly think passion is more important than theme in some ways. If your team is passionate you make it work. Like JJP is kinda clearly run by engineers now, but look how that worked out for Pirates. A 'recycled' theme, but with a lot of really interesting tech put into it. And JP is another master of his craft, even with the license restrictions Pirates had he killed it, the LCD looks top notch. No actors? Oh well, still great.

Wonka just feels like no one really cared. That might sound harsh, but really, look at it. The art is the slot machine off-the-shelf package. JP's LCD work doesn't come close to what he's already shown he's capable of. The sound is bad. Sorry, but it is. And the layout might shoot well, but there are no toys or inventive things that bring the whimsy of the film to life. I just don't get the sense anyone at the company actually cared one whit about the license.

#2134 62 days ago
Quoted from wesman:

I just wonder how much of what we've seen was designed with large scale accessibility in mind.

I get that thought, but who's mass buying at these prices if it's stripped down? If they want to compete with Stern they need to compete with the Pro price too.

Quoted from PtownPin:

I think the days of JJP loading their games with great innovative toys, and sound packages is over....they finally realized they need to make money.

Okay, but same point as above. Who's paying the kind of money they ask for if it doesn't come with the full mechanical experience? I'm not gonna pretend I'd pay $12k for a game even if it was a Rube Goldberg machine under the glass, but there are people who will. I get the Premium Game For Premium Price argument.

But "good enough" game for more money? Once you pass the die hards and super theme lovers who's in?

#2138 62 days ago
Quoted from branlon8:

I accept that you are just expressing your personal opinion.

Sure, everything is subjective, someone likes the sound package I'm sure. But it's not like I'm alone in the woods on this one, just looking back over the last page or two of comments you see this:

Quoted from delt31:

The game has a great theme and from what I've seen, they're completely drowning it alive with horrendous sound, lack of speech with the clips and the absolute worst announcer that any pinball game has ever had period.

Quoted from Whysnow:

I agree that they really need to figure out the sound pacjkage. By far the worst con of the game.

A fun game with an uninspiring art package is still a fun game. But if your sound is bad that's imo a big deal, because you hear it every time you play. If it's grating or irritating that's gonna kill your interest in playing.

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