(Topic ID: 329786)

GTB one's and tens score reels not carring over

By durriti

5 days ago


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  • 19 posts
  • 6 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 15 hours ago by durriti
  • Topic is favorited by 1 Pinsider

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#1 5 days ago

Hello All,

l have a problem with the '1's' and '10's' score reels not carrying over, the '100's' carries over into the '1000's' ok. l've checked the ninth positions switches and 'zero' positions switches on both reels, they are clean and open/closed when they should be. All score reels reset correctly when the game button is activated.
Is this a score reel relay related problem?.

Thanks.

#2 5 days ago

What game? Depending on the specific game other switches are involved.

#3 5 days ago

Just for a quick trial, check (clean/adjust) the switches
in the 0 - 9 and 10 - 90 Score Relays..

#4 4 days ago

Its a Flipper Clown that seems to have had a hard life. l've checked and cleaned the switches, they have good contact when the relay is pressed with a finger, they all make good even contact. What l did notice is that the switch screws were loose, so they all have been tightened, but this has made no difference. l've attached a section of the schematic.
Thanks for your help.

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#5 4 days ago

You can’t check switches by sight. You need to check them using a meter. I don’t know how many times I’ve seen a switch look good, but not make electrical contact.

Try that on those switches in question.

#6 4 days ago

Can't you just jumper the "9TH. POS. UNITS UNIT" switch and score 1 pt repeatedly and see if the tens fires as well?

#7 4 days ago

l've just checked the 1 pnt and 10 pnt relays switches with a meter and are good. l've tried jumping the 9TH. POS. UNITS. UNIT, effectively cutting out the switch, (see picture) and tapping the 1 pnt. relay, 10 pnt. reel not being triggered. Am l miss understanding your direction?

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#8 4 days ago
Quoted from Billc479:

You can’t check switches by sight. You need to check them using a meter.

Sorry to disagree. I find Alligator clip jumper wires more reliable than a meter in most cases because the meter can get confused by electrical paths through other parts of the machine. Also a first check can be done by sight if you follow this guide:

For a switch to work 3 things are necessary:
1) When open, there should be a small space between the contact points (duh)
2) When closing, the long blade's contact point should push the short blade's contact point enough to move the short blade
3) The contact points should be clean, which they usually will be if #2 is happening

#9 4 days ago

Howard - I agree with you on using jumpers while troubleshooting. In this case, I was referring to the OP pushing the relay to see if the contacts closed. Since this seems to be the area where there's the trouble, I recommended using a meter to verify the contacts were closed. As we see later, OP did verify they were closing electrically.

I have had instances where the contacts appeared to be closed but had a film that prevented them from closing electrically. A quick swipe with a business card usually takes care of the problem. Like you said, usually this is not a problem if there's contact wipe.

For the OP, if whats being suggested being followed, I suspect an open wire.

#10 4 days ago

If you've jumpered (shorted) that switch correctly and the 10pt relay isn't firing, then as Billc479 said, you probably have a break in the wiring somewhere.

#11 4 days ago

l decided to move one of the aligator clips to other wire terminals on the 1 pnt. score reel and the tap the 1 pnt. relay. On the third terminal down from the top, the 1 pnt. bell sounds and score reel advances when the 1 pnt. relay is tapped, this continues until '0' on the units reel, and then the 10 pnt. reel advances once and 10pnt. bell sounds. What l appear to be joining is the green/black to brown/orange - one side of the 9th switch to the inside switch on the middle score reel cam. Second picture is with score reel and arrows pointing to what is being connected. Keep telling what l'm misssing.

Thanks again.

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#12 4 days ago

On the schematic snippet you posted, you're trying to jump the GR-BLK wire on one side of the "9TH. POS. UNITS UNIT" switch with the YEL-BL-RED wire on the other side of the same switch. Effectively, you're just shorting the switch, forcing it closed.

With that switch closed, every pulse from the N relay should fire the M relay....if everything's connected as it should be. That's assuming that N switch is good.

#13 4 days ago

Shorting the 9th switch and tapping the 1 pnt. relay does nothing only the third terminal down bring any result.

#14 4 days ago

You can use your jumper to bypass (short) lengths of wire also, in case there's a break in the wire. For example, you could hook one end directly to the lug of the M relay that's not connected to the black wire, and the other end of the jumper to the left (on the schematic) switch tab of the "9th. Pos. Units Unit" switch. Both those points should have the same color wire (YEL-BL-RED). If pressing the N relay with your finger then made the M relay fire, you'd know you have a break in the YEL-BL-RED wire somewhere in the length that you jumped.

#15 3 days ago

There's only 2 possible switches involved here and one is on the N relay. When the ninth position switch is closed and the N relay fires the M relay should fire. There could be an open/dirty switch on the N relay that's not closing, or the ninth position switch not closing (or both)

I don't see any wires in the posted photos that actually shows the correct ninth position switch jumpered.

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#16 3 days ago
Quoted from durriti:

Shorting the 9th switch and tapping the 1 pnt. relay does nothing

Instead of tapping the 0-9 Point Relay multiple times, put the
1's Score Reel on 9. Then elegater clip the front left set of contacts
on the 0-9 Point Relay. After doing that, the 10-90 Point Relay along with
the 10s Score Reel should be 100% energized not letting loose.
So now short the 1s 9th position switch, wiggle wires, do some jumping,
anything to get that 10-90 Relay to energize. As long as those
contacts are clipped and the 1's Score Reel is on 9, the 10s Score Reel
coil should be holding and buzzing..
I have a Flipper Clown, so I know it's the same with the 100s Score Reel.
Clipping the front left set of contacts on the 10-90 Point Relay while the 10s
Score Reel is on 9 (90) should energize and hold the 100-900 Point Relay,
which would hold in the 100s Score Reel coil..

#17 2 days ago

Firstly, thank you all for your input.

Paulace. Connecting/jumping the 'M' relay, non black wire to the 9th POS. switch either side and tapping the units relay didn't fire the tens score reel. Following the wires from the 9th POS. switch back to the 'N' relay, this seems to have no breaks. Wires being Gr/blk and bl/or. The 'N' relay has four switches, three can be seen on the section of schematic l posted, the forth is the 1.pnt. bell, further up the schematic. The 'N' relay, see picture 1, 1st switch front left, has the gr/blk and or/wh this has a diagonal link to the switch behind. Left switch behind has link and or/gr, (possibly bell). Right hand switch front wh/blk and wh/silver. Back righthand switch Or/bl wire (other 9th POS. wire) and wh/or pair -these are live. Jumping from the or/bu side of 9th POS. switch to the back righthand switch live wh/or pair fires 10pnt. relay, 10pnt score reel, 10pnt. bell and carrys over to the 100's at right point.

edednedy. Jumped from 'M' relay (non- black), to the or/bl - 9th POS. switch and tapped units relay but this fires 10pnt. relay, score reel and bell for each tap of the units relay, see picture, hopefully l have not miss understood what you asked. picture 2

Mopar. l clipped the lefthand front set of switches to various other switches but the only wire that causes the 10pnt relay, score reel and bell to lock on is the righthand back switch pair wh/or, (this is wire pair is live during the game but dead at game over) See picture 3 10pnt. relay locked on.

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#18 2 days ago

Hey durriti,
I don't have a schematic - what color is the vertical wire on the right side above the "Zero Pos. Balls to Play Unit" switch?

Just to make sure you understand the reasoning behind what we're doing here - the circuit that fires the M relay when the 1 pt. score reel is at 9 and you score 1 more pt. (N relay fires) is pretty simple: just 2 switches (N and 9th. Pos. Units Unit) and the M relay coil itself.

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What we're trying to do with the jumpers is short one or both switches, effectively taking them out of the circuit, or forcing them closed, if you prefer to think of it that way.

Putting one end of the jumper where the red X is (non-black wire on the M relay) and putting the other end where the yellow X is, should make the M relay fire. You're just bypassing both switches and connecting the M relay coil straight to the other side of the power bus. (This assumes that some switches along the right vertical wire on the schematic are closed as well. They should be, or none of your scoring relays would work.) If you do this, don't leave the jumper connected long - you'll burn up the M relay coil.

If the M relay doesn't fire when you do this, you have a problem with the M relay coil itself.

If you keep one end of the jumper at the red X and put the other end where the green X is (GR-BLK wire), you're shorting the "9th. Pos. Units Unit" switch. That switch is on the units score reel, though the GR-BLK wire runs elsewhere. Let's assume that your N relay switches are all working as they should, (which means that the N switch on the right side of the schematic snippet above closes when you either score 1 pt. or press the N relay armature closed with your finger.)

IF that's true that the N relay switches are working correctly, and you are jumpered between the red and green X's:

- if the M relay DOES fire when the N relay fires, the problem is in the switch (or wiring) that you jumpered...namely the "9th. Pos. Units Unit" switch.

- if the M relay DOES NOT fire when the N relay fires, the problem would be in the N relay switch, which you have not jumpered.

The problem could also be in the wiring between the switches, not the actual switches themselves. Look very carefully at all the solder tabs - hopefully, it's something you can see visually.

If not, you can use the jumper wire to "replace" the wire between switches. Go between one switch tab (in the back) and the next on the schematic - effectively replacing the original wire with your jumper.

The trick is making sure you're on the right tabs, switches or wires, especially with those old, faded wire colors. Also make sure your switch contacts are clean and sliding past each other slightly when closing. Looking good visually is no guarantee of an electrical connection, though - that's why we're using the jumpers.

#19 15 hours ago

Hello Paulace,

The vertical wire that returns to the 'zero position' balls to play unit is red & white, (see posted section). As you write many wire colours have faded over time. l have noticed that there appears to be two wire gauges. l will be going through the area you suggest over the course of the next few evenings. Thanks again for the input.

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