Knock Out
Gottlieb, 1950More details to be posted soon. This will be a winter project.
So far the plan is:
Modernize flippers and pop bumper mechanics.
Replace damaged lane guides.
Move flipper switches to the cabinet.
Find someone to help repaint the characters in the ring or find decals.
Contemplate adding GI lights.
Replace playfield with one of Wades’ first test/sample playfields touched up and clearcoated by CaptainNeo
D048A696-436E-4A78-AB02-DC71349DD02E (resized).jpegNo two lane guide pairs are the same size.
Rough measurements.
1AA6F6D0-F4D4-4B74-8A7A-288256E50FEC (resized).jpeg3C5F06FB-40F8-45A1-881F-CF5039BAB5A7 (resized).jpeg4E5A67DD-59D7-4162-9ADC-A6423E9A089B (resized).jpegC62F66CA-7775-4576-B199-498748212DED (resized).jpeg6033A7B4-C985-46E9-AC13-27978839A11E (resized).jpeg8A875DA4-C815-4E7E-B83A-A1CA9029DC1C (resized).jpegADD15A72-B4F3-4783-94CD-E6493912B7D3 (resized).jpegE75D50EC-E832-430B-A2F4-4E706E67FA89 (resized).jpegEDFE5F44-92A9-420A-BDC4-8BB9BE80E250 (resized).jpegGot a lot done today. With the new style flippers it’s tricky fitting everything in. So much so the trough needs some material removed. Even if that works the end of the flipper bracket better not be too tall to stop the balls from rolling through. One reason I haven’t secured the flippers to the playfield yet.
7F5F6F57-01CF-499C-8AC5-BCC0AEE8C2EC (resized).jpegADBD27EC-F5BF-4565-AE2D-ECC1ABFE89C9 (resized).jpeg
The obstruction.
A0054CD9-13C3-441F-BE43-45B775893B82 (resized).jpeg
Tried to line up the kick out hole brackets with the arrows as best I could to align with the original playfield.
I should probably give a thank you to 
pinballplusMN for the labor for assembling the new flippers.
As far as I know, no rebuild kit exists for these games and you’d otherwise have to do a retrofit of newer gottlieb parts. This method is actually cheaper (minus the coils). I don’t NEED to replace the coils but I’ll be saving the originals as backups.
Most gottlieb games from the 60s and 70s I continue to rebuild with kits from Steve. But anything significantly old like this, or any Williams EM or early SS, is getting this treatment.
On adding GI - I normally don't use LEDS on my EMs except in special cases. But on your four side pop bumbers, or all of them, perhaps you could try 5SMD warm white LEDs where one LED is on top but it's surrounded by four smaller ones that shine sideways, which would light the perimeter of the pop bases. Comet's are called 'insane bright'. That would help light the playfield more, hopefully without making the caps overly bright. If that was the case you could try just blacking out the top LED. I've never tried them so I don't know, just a thought. I'm not even sure they would fit under a cap or how the top LED would look on the cap, might just make a spot and need to be diffused with something.
Quoted from frenchmarky:On adding GI - I normally don't use LEDS on my EMs except in special cases. But on your four side pop bumbers, or all of them, perhaps you could try 5SMD warm white LEDs where one LED is on top but it's surrounded by four smaller ones that shine sideways, which would light the perimeter of the pop bases. Comet's are called 'insane bright'. That would help light the playfield more, hopefully without making the caps overly bright. If that was the case you could try just blacking out the top LED. I've never tried them so I don't know, just a thought. I'm not even sure they would fit under a cap or how the top LED would look on the cap, might just make a spot and need to be diffused with something.
I'm going to add that to my mental list of ideas. One thing I am trying to avoid is drilling more hole into the playfield for a couple of reasons. Mostly because I don't want to risk chipping the clearcoat. Things could go downhill really fast. So your idea above would be fair game for this.
Another thought I had was small LED strips under the shield/lane guides. I could fit a CAT6 twisted pair wires through the switch hole.
Okay time for a closer look at the pop bumpers. Fortunately there are only two. Like the flippers, I'm making several changes. Old parts on the left, new parts on the right.
Some might not be extremely necessary but would prevent headaches down the road if something goes wrong. Newer games I've had good luck removing brass sleeves. I'm 0 for 2 on this game. As much as I like getting rid of those brass sleeves I'm forced to leave them in. That or I have to replace the coil. I've even tried my sleeve remover tool. So I'll be using crazy clean on the brass sleeves. Here are the rest of the parts I'll be keeping...and cleaning.
D91F24C1-5549-4EAE-A4ED-18B3E617FF93 (resized).jpeg
One thing I miss with the reproduction parts is the marble-like finish on the wafer/ skirts as well as caps and bodies. Newer parts are solid colors. For that reason I'm actually saving all the original parts as I'm sure someone will find value in them. But I won't sell them. I'll give them away to someone who would want to use them.
CCF2D235-6815-49D4-908E-50D4F3D3CF89 (resized).jpeg
It's harder to see that finish on the bodies but if you look close, it's there. As of today, pop bumper bodies are IN STOCK with Steve Young. So...might as well replace them. No light sockets for me. I use 1x twisted pair from a CAT5 cable to give power to a 1SMD 555 Comet LED and solder to the legs.
4F002CBA-CAEF-4BCD-9422-2616646F95CA (resized).jpeg
This one should be pretty obvious. A stronger/ stable bracket makes sense at this point. Plenty of room to mount. Not worried about using 3 screws mounted similar to the old rather than using the threaded nails. Not like these are overly powerful to begin with.
DE8E1321-394A-481E-88C1-7CED53E6ED23 (resized).jpeg
A few pictures of the ring and rod assembly. I usually leave the originals in. But I noticed there is little threaded material to mount the nuts which will be really important in the last step. Also the ends of the ring are flat. That does appear to be a detractor as I see wear in that area. The ball probably gets tangled in that as it departs the pop assembly. Two bad things about that...it probably slows the action down and drives the ball into the playfield causing wear.
ADB6839C-ACB7-4C35-8F6F-7D8D07C2BDD2 (resized).jpeg
B63B6D1A-1ACE-4EC7-8604-F743CD940DC6 (resized).jpeg
84756A2B-DCA6-4FF2-AF54-C802E4579A18 (resized).jpeg
Here's why we need more threaded material. The yokes require more material to run through to the other side. The original on the left is one one thin piece. The newer metal and fiber are thicker even on their own. The plunger has to go too as everything on the left is one piece.
Quoted from EJS:Another thought I had was small LED strips under the shield/lane guides. I could fit a CAT6 twisted pair wires through the switch hole.
I thought it might be a concern with the lamp wires interfering/shorting with the switch blades since the hole is pretty small but might work as long as the wires are well insulated. Another type LED that might work are the 1SMD 'flex' type with the longer leads, if bright enough. The LED itself could lay flat with the two wires coming up behind the switch and they would shine against the underside of the guides and diffuse onto the playfield. Maybe add sockets under the playfield, or just staple the LED wires under there and lengthen the leads if necessary.
Quoted from frenchmarky:I thought it might be a concern with the lamp wires interfering/shorting with the switch blades since the hole is pretty small but might work as long as the wires are well insulated. Another type LED that might work are the 1SMD 'flex' type with the longer leads, if bright enough. The LED itself could lay flat with the two wires coming up behind the switch and they would shine against the underside of the guides and diffuse onto the playfield. Maybe add sockets under the playfield, or just staple the LED wires under there and lengthen the leads if necessary.
I like the idea of the 1SMD mounted on those pads (flex). I’d actually eliminate the wire that comes on them since they are probably too thick and would intrude on the switch blades. I’m ok with direct solder.
Good news I just looked at the schematic and that large bulb that covers the boxing ring happens to be 6v
Looks like if I run it around back I’d be safe. That way I don’t create any obstruction or worse, have the blade chew into the wires and send 25v to the rest of the lights….possibly.
54E2005F-632C-4823-B901-7F3F16B249BF (resized).jpegCFB034DE-6C55-4ADD-833A-C9C0D6A7EAF2 (resized).jpegThe relay bank and their reset arm/coil mount separately from each other.
425966AE-BDB8-4FE7-A5DD-913C493AA0A0 (resized).jpeg
To make sure they mesh well I made my own paper template off the old playfield. Just lay it down and puncture a hole with one of the screws.
DAF51FC8-AABE-401B-9082-3E08238524DC (resized).jpeg
6FAC9C65-C938-4E02-BCAD-14B21CCC35E8 (resized).jpeg
Next step is adding in wire to run the flipper button switches to the cabinet. Factory has the switches mounted on the playfield and then piano wire sweeps in from the cabinet buttons which I've never cared for.
Green= Common
Blue= Left Flipper
Brown= Right Flipper
That's right, it's actually a line cord from Germany.
BC842E62-C791-4C1C-9FED-A1C88A848D8E (resized).jpeg
This appears to be the best position for the left flipper bracket. So I need to move the scoop switch. Normally the switch runs parallel with the lockdown bar.
F0474F48-B1DE-404A-A672-24A8AC5CF0CC (resized).jpeg
With that in place, better make the other side match. I'm not sure if I had enough room to mount it factory orientation or not. The blue line shows where it normally would have been and where I swung it to.
Between this and the newer style flippers I have two problems getting the wires to where they need to go, as seen in red. I could make a tight fit over the flipper to the coil in the middle which I don't like. Either way I still come up short to the trough coil.
EE30C50F-59B0-43D9-A9A8-D787B529FAC4 (resized).jpeg
Above I have two green X's where I'm able to come up with solutions. Split the wires up and redirect. I also don't have any need for that flipper switch so it can go away too. Below is the end result. Plenty of room to work with now. I'm not too crazy about routing wires under the flipper plate.
I worry a little about all those wires on the edge of the bracket and all the vibration it will experience. I suppose by the time it sees so much play it wears the wires bare and shorts things out I'll have had other problems by then.
63FDEAE5-9292-4678-AF63-C4919BD8537D (resized).jpeg
A couple of leftover pics I have. The right button had so much extra wire I was fortunate to find the next switch it had in common was the tilt close by. So I eliminated a lot of wire right there.
What really made me scratch my head was the wiring from the factory for the right EOS switch. They ran the wire all the way through the harness in the middle of the playfield and back to the coil. Here's a demonstration on my old PF.
I would assume this was done during the harness build to make.....something....easier. Meanwhile I just shortcut things right to the switch. The only thing NOT local to the flipper is that cabinet switch so I just cut across the playfield by the two inserts.
I haven't mounted that rollover button switch yet but I'll have to dress things up so no wires press it closed.
1EFF043D-343A-4C39-90C5-C75CE768B6BB (resized).jpegD3D4DA8A-5CF7-47B4-AB0F-350676B8D434 (resized).jpegBeen slowly working on soldering stuff back on. Made a fair push today and got the bumpers assembled now that the playfield is on a rotisserie.
F41955B1-A200-4D62-83B2-ED3054911548 (resized).jpeg
I almost went with burple skirts to match the playfield but then they’d mismatch the caps. So blue it is
E505E72D-87FE-4480-BF6E-AA1C0CB03A16 (resized).jpeg
No need for sockets anymore. Comet 1SMD warm white.
F61D8C50-E6BA-40E0-9E1A-2F8C1ED7AF4D (resized).jpegBE9CB4EC-E5DC-4CCE-A78B-44ACD252B71C (resized).jpeg
New ring rods as discussed earlier. Sanded the rings down to 2000 and up to 7000. They are fine as they come from PBL but sanding gives them a better finish.
1B88C948-BB75-41D8-9595-F7CD586E9999 (resized).jpeg
I’m trying to talk myself into making an entire set of ball guides. Here’s how the first one went….
The far left is the bent original and is the only one that appears obviously damaged.
The middle is its mate on the other side of the playfield which I used to draw on the blank piece.
810059DB-BCE3-484E-9BC5-1A69CE63537D (resized).jpeg
Tape things down to a yard stick
05DA1434-9DA8-454E-90CB-6C4312D3FF52 (resized).jpeg
Crisp hole is drilled. I got a fancy drill bit set from a guy who sells these bits for a living. I helped him fix one of his pinballs last year.
5CF0ED69-A292-4D31-8A13-5850AB262D66 (resized).jpeg
Time to cut off the excess. It’s best not to work late at night or the dremel skips into an area I didn’t want it to. Oh well, took a little more material off to even it out.
9D9460A0-882B-4CCC-9D52-108AFF77449D (resized).jpeg
The cutter blade (left) comes standard with just about any Dremel took kit you can buy. Thanks to vid1900 for posting that large kit for $15 on Amazon awhile ago which included another stone (right, mounted in Dremel) which was easier to control.
Not a perfect professional finish but looks respectable.
D7856264-CDDD-4CD5-9083-6FC946A741DD (resized).jpeg45846014-C44C-4E09-AF29-9A0748831255 (resized).jpeg
Lined up with the rest of the guides. The throw away pushed above
8824AAD1-EC5C-4C14-AE02-D917BAE22A63 (resized).jpeg5008FAF9-FC0A-48CA-B160-71A8C5E3428B (resized).jpegHappy Friday!
I got motivated today…
Silly me I didn’t realize these are the unfinished sides. The other side with the plastic which looks dingy is covering up a high mirror finish. However it will probably pick up the smallest flaw I actually like this side better. It has a similar finish to the originals…albeit probably dulled from over the years.
If I add some metal polish to this side it should clean up a lot of the flaws and goobers.
Dremel is charging up now for rounding the corners.
CC6AF213-985F-45BD-B6DD-84FC68D010A3 (resized).jpegThese were harder than I thought. I was trying to use monuments from the old playfield to line things up and turns out things are a little different. The easiest unit of measurement was from the far edge of the side of the playfield then estimate from there.
If you look closely things don’t line up perfectly. I can’t feel too bad because the factory playfield doesn’t look like they lined things up perfectly either. Plus this wasn’t one of Wades finished products I know some changes were made before the production run. So it’s all good!
FD9C0186-3B50-459D-8F6C-2583413936FD (resized).jpegFDEFCE21-FE67-4B4A-AB2F-B3105D788F0E (resized).jpeg
Couple more pics…
80003982-8E06-43F0-A6F6-71B555BFB0DA (resized).jpegC85BD3F7-1F04-4B95-B0EC-6DA9CBA3B167 (resized).jpegThis is also my first time using a WMS BLY flipper bushing on this era GTB shoe/shaft. Normally I’d use a GTB rebuild kit from Steve Young for older GTBs but as I mentioned before 1950 is too old.
So….
It turns out these bushings set the bats quite a bit higher. Using 2x 1” rings is a must. This should keep the ball from being driven into the playfield.
On the plus side I don’t think I’ll ever worry about flipper bat drag if something comes loose.
In a perfect world I’d grind them down a bit but all that playing around with stuff I don’t want to risk damage.
1EA50ADB-1A55-4AF2-91B7-3C3E10A60CCE (resized).jpeg
All new parts were used
C35991AB-5367-4C46-9B15-AFD582AEAA90 (resized).jpegHere’s another modification I wanted to do.
I don’t want to drive any nails into the playfield since the clear likely won’t handle it well.
The ball gate metal is narrow on these older games but I relocated the post to the right to make it almost impossible for the ball to return to the shooter lane. I had to lower it enough to make sure if it rolled off the gate it wouldn’t get wedged or promote a “roll in” to the shooter lane.
From a gameplay perspective there’s really no advantage in getting the ball back to the shooter lane. Maybe you get another chance to aim at one of the 5 bumpers at the top etc
Here’s the change with the original for comparison.
0A7D80B1-F9A6-4A3D-9A02-12499759FB6C (resized).jpeg0A8DBA46-8A88-4F61-B945-8F770E72E931 (resized).jpeg950CFC78-AE16-438B-BB9B-9D2B8C54F8DF (resized).jpegQuoted from EJS:This is also my first time using a WMS BLY flipper bushing on this era GTB shoe/shaft. Normally I’d use a GTB rebuild kit from Steve Young for older GTBs but as I mentioned before 1950 is too old.
So….
It turns out these bushings set the bats quite a bit higher. Using 2x 1” rings is a must. This should keep the ball from being driven into the playfield.
On the plus side I don’t think I’ll ever worry about flipper bat drag if something comes loose.
In a perfect world I’d grind them down a bit but all that playing around with stuff I don’t want to risk damage.
[quoted image]
All new parts were used
[quoted image]
I like the look of the blue and white rubber on the flipper.
Quoted from Daditude:Any updates?
No action this week.
Last weekend I had a few people over for pinball and seeing as how this playfield was laying in the middle of my living room I figured I better store it back in it’s cabinet for safekeeping. Not to belittle my magic city but I threw it’s playfield on the rotisserie instead (https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/getting-organized-with-ejs-and-little-johnny/page/10#post-7336005)
As you can tell I sometimes struggle staying on task, I’m doing better.
Next step for Knock Out is retrofit the rollover button in the middle. Sounds like Jets_1479 is sending me the part I’m in need of so a huge thank you for that.
Also need to polish the boxing ring so that will take some time. DavidLee wants to try some water slide decals for the worn ink on the boxers/ref
brobra was going to get me a repro glass from Shay but it sounds like he’s out of stock until next year. I checked the year before with Shay and same thing. Mine isn’t horrible but if you look close you can see lifting around the lower scoring point values and there is some fading.
A huge thank you to Jets_1479 for making this part of the project possible. He was kind enough to send not 1 but 3 sets of rollover contacts that fit the later style rollover buttons.
As a refresher here is the original style. The button is really close to the insert without any wiggle room. The new playfield already has the later style insert cleared into the playfield.
4D4EAD8F-574D-4BF5-ABE0-4660A7A5EBDD (resized).jpeg69D0C892-EAF2-42B5-BA6F-FC7ACBBF630A (resized).jpeg
Here are the switches that will be used. They arrived mounted on a bracket which is not needed. I’ll save them for another project.
C333FB30-6532-40AE-8E50-893F78D09093 (resized).jpeg
The rollover and screw are readily available from Steve Young at this time.
E80419F1-E970-45CF-815D-AEE6298E71B8 (resized).jpeg
Installed! I had to shim back the LED light so it didn’t get in the way. It appears to shine through the same spot the hammer strikes the bell on the artwork which is kind of cool!
AF59A9D3-F337-490E-B3C0-4690CBBE2ABD (resized).jpegD4C6257F-A8F8-4B75-8507-FE9AAC23C247 (resized).jpeg
Some “shop out” pics of the boxing ring. Going to get the 3 characters ready for DavidLee to work on some decals.
04606355-383F-4DC7-AE43-EFE0AE9DC167 (resized).jpeg0C1FAC02-191D-4F12-AD4F-E3D71598C925 (resized).jpeg15B6A248-67CA-49DC-B99C-A240E1FCEAAE (resized).jpeg4730F4A4-F2C1-4886-83B2-5DAA6C7BAA04 (resized).jpeg68E1F1E7-3D3B-4386-A0B2-F02E8E696971 (resized).jpeg68F31317-3B27-4370-988A-BF43B9D9676C (resized).jpeg6C7DF2E9-FE54-4DF2-8E0B-781CE65B5AA5 (resized).jpeg72D910B9-C1E8-424E-905D-1D0AE0596A41 (resized).jpeg754F86F6-4743-44E5-A946-40FC355232EC (resized).jpeg764F2234-DCD8-4539-9107-A46A1E0EB7B5 (resized).jpeg9FA65035-C032-4EDC-B679-CD8F9A5114EE (resized).jpegA54528EF-7405-4D0B-8D96-A0A270F7E5F5 (resized).jpegDE2FC611-51D4-42FF-9F28-F35671361C2F (resized).jpegED05C50E-DB86-43D8-B60E-4AC6145C7727 (resized).jpeg
F46A7555-CB5A-4CB0-A02F-EA14AB7078A2 (resized).jpegThe plan was to decal the players but my ma got excited to get the paint pens and craft stuff out. Figured that would be a fun activity for her to keep her mind sharp. So I dropped them off a couple of days ago and got a progress update tonight.
This boxing ring is pretty much all that’s left before I attempt to turn the game on with the new playfield. I suppose I could try it now but would need to close the circuit on the two coils that manipulate the players.
BF79F3DA-EB0A-48D7-A81E-50CB56D885B4 (resized).jpegQuoted from EJS:The plan was to decal the players but my ma got excited to get the paint pens and craft stuff out. Figured that would be a fun activity for her to keep her mind sharp. So I dropped them off a couple of days ago and got a progress update tonight.
This boxing ring is pretty much all that’s left before I attempt to turn the game on with the new playfield. I suppose I could try it now but would need to close the circuit on the two coils that manipulate the players.
[quoted image]
Nice touch up work!!
Quoted from poppapin:Nice touch up work!!
Supposed to be phase 1 of …. ???
As far as I’m concerned they look good enough to go back in.
Quoted from pinballplusMN:Look great. Clearcoat after?
Triple thick at your place next week.
Wanna join the discussion? Please sign in to reply to this topic.
Great to see you're enjoying Pinside! Did you know Pinside is able to run without any 3rd-party banners or ads, thanks to the support from our visitors? Please consider a donation to Pinside and get anext to your username to show for it! Or better yet, subscribe to Pinside+!
This page was printed from https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/gtb-knock-out-playfield-swap and we tried optimising it for printing. Some page elements may have been deliberately hidden.
Scan the QR code on the left to jump to the URL this document was printed from.
Moreno Valley, CA