(Topic ID: 325567)

GTB Knock Out Playfield swap

By EJS

1 year ago


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  • 62 posts
  • 10 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 7 months ago by EJS
  • Topic is favorited by 8 Pinsiders

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“Should I add GI under the lane guides”

  • Yes 5 votes
    56%
  • No 4 votes
    44%
  • Just by the flippers 0 votes

(9 votes)

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There are 62 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 2.
#1 1 year ago

More details to be posted soon. This will be a winter project.

So far the plan is:

Modernize flippers and pop bumper mechanics.

Replace damaged lane guides.

Move flipper switches to the cabinet.

Find someone to help repaint the characters in the ring or find decals.

Contemplate adding GI lights.

Replace playfield with one of Wades’ first test/sample playfields touched up and clearcoated by CaptainNeo

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#2 1 year ago

Got all the rails off in one piece. Since the playfield wood is much lighter I think I'll sand this down so it matches a little more. Plus there are some deep scratches and wear I want to get rid of.

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#3 1 year ago

No two lane guide pairs are the same size.

Rough measurements.

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#4 1 year ago

Can't wait to see this with a Wade playfield, following.

#5 1 year ago

Well I’m no woodworker but got a coat of sanding done today

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#6 1 year ago

Ball release assembly polished and installed.

Also got the apron/rails in too

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#7 1 year ago

Got a lot done today. With the new style flippers it’s tricky fitting everything in. So much so the trough needs some material removed. Even if that works the end of the flipper bracket better not be too tall to stop the balls from rolling through. One reason I haven’t secured the flippers to the playfield yet.

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The obstruction.
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Tried to line up the kick out hole brackets with the arrows as best I could to align with the original playfield.

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#8 1 year ago

I should probably give a thank you to pinballplusMN for the labor for assembling the new flippers.

As far as I know, no rebuild kit exists for these games and you’d otherwise have to do a retrofit of newer gottlieb parts. This method is actually cheaper (minus the coils). I don’t NEED to replace the coils but I’ll be saving the originals as backups.

Most gottlieb games from the 60s and 70s I continue to rebuild with kits from Steve. But anything significantly old like this, or any Williams EM or early SS, is getting this treatment.

#9 1 year ago

Happy thanksgiving! Covering some ground today…No pun intended. Switches are all cleaned up.

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#10 1 year ago

On adding GI - I normally don't use LEDS on my EMs except in special cases. But on your four side pop bumbers, or all of them, perhaps you could try 5SMD warm white LEDs where one LED is on top but it's surrounded by four smaller ones that shine sideways, which would light the perimeter of the pop bases. Comet's are called 'insane bright'. That would help light the playfield more, hopefully without making the caps overly bright. If that was the case you could try just blacking out the top LED. I've never tried them so I don't know, just a thought. I'm not even sure they would fit under a cap or how the top LED would look on the cap, might just make a spot and need to be diffused with something.

#11 1 year ago
Quoted from frenchmarky:

On adding GI - I normally don't use LEDS on my EMs except in special cases. But on your four side pop bumbers, or all of them, perhaps you could try 5SMD warm white LEDs where one LED is on top but it's surrounded by four smaller ones that shine sideways, which would light the perimeter of the pop bases. Comet's are called 'insane bright'. That would help light the playfield more, hopefully without making the caps overly bright. If that was the case you could try just blacking out the top LED. I've never tried them so I don't know, just a thought. I'm not even sure they would fit under a cap or how the top LED would look on the cap, might just make a spot and need to be diffused with something.

I'm going to add that to my mental list of ideas. One thing I am trying to avoid is drilling more hole into the playfield for a couple of reasons. Mostly because I don't want to risk chipping the clearcoat. Things could go downhill really fast. So your idea above would be fair game for this.

Another thought I had was small LED strips under the shield/lane guides. I could fit a CAT6 twisted pair wires through the switch hole.

#12 1 year ago

Okay time for a closer look at the pop bumpers. Fortunately there are only two. Like the flippers, I'm making several changes. Old parts on the left, new parts on the right.

Some might not be extremely necessary but would prevent headaches down the road if something goes wrong. Newer games I've had good luck removing brass sleeves. I'm 0 for 2 on this game. As much as I like getting rid of those brass sleeves I'm forced to leave them in. That or I have to replace the coil. I've even tried my sleeve remover tool. So I'll be using crazy clean on the brass sleeves. Here are the rest of the parts I'll be keeping...and cleaning.
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One thing I miss with the reproduction parts is the marble-like finish on the wafer/ skirts as well as caps and bodies. Newer parts are solid colors. For that reason I'm actually saving all the original parts as I'm sure someone will find value in them. But I won't sell them. I'll give them away to someone who would want to use them.

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It's harder to see that finish on the bodies but if you look close, it's there. As of today, pop bumper bodies are IN STOCK with Steve Young. So...might as well replace them. No light sockets for me. I use 1x twisted pair from a CAT5 cable to give power to a 1SMD 555 Comet LED and solder to the legs.
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This one should be pretty obvious. A stronger/ stable bracket makes sense at this point. Plenty of room to mount. Not worried about using 3 screws mounted similar to the old rather than using the threaded nails. Not like these are overly powerful to begin with.
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A few pictures of the ring and rod assembly. I usually leave the originals in. But I noticed there is little threaded material to mount the nuts which will be really important in the last step. Also the ends of the ring are flat. That does appear to be a detractor as I see wear in that area. The ball probably gets tangled in that as it departs the pop assembly. Two bad things about that...it probably slows the action down and drives the ball into the playfield causing wear.

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Here's why we need more threaded material. The yokes require more material to run through to the other side. The original on the left is one one thin piece. The newer metal and fiber are thicker even on their own. The plunger has to go too as everything on the left is one piece.

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#13 1 year ago

Getting closer to the scary part

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#14 1 year ago
Quoted from EJS:

Another thought I had was small LED strips under the shield/lane guides. I could fit a CAT6 twisted pair wires through the switch hole.

I thought it might be a concern with the lamp wires interfering/shorting with the switch blades since the hole is pretty small but might work as long as the wires are well insulated. Another type LED that might work are the 1SMD 'flex' type with the longer leads, if bright enough. The LED itself could lay flat with the two wires coming up behind the switch and they would shine against the underside of the guides and diffuse onto the playfield. Maybe add sockets under the playfield, or just staple the LED wires under there and lengthen the leads if necessary.

#15 1 year ago
Quoted from frenchmarky:

I thought it might be a concern with the lamp wires interfering/shorting with the switch blades since the hole is pretty small but might work as long as the wires are well insulated. Another type LED that might work are the 1SMD 'flex' type with the longer leads, if bright enough. The LED itself could lay flat with the two wires coming up behind the switch and they would shine against the underside of the guides and diffuse onto the playfield. Maybe add sockets under the playfield, or just staple the LED wires under there and lengthen the leads if necessary.

I like the idea of the 1SMD mounted on those pads (flex). I’d actually eliminate the wire that comes on them since they are probably too thick and would intrude on the switch blades. I’m ok with direct solder.

Good news I just looked at the schematic and that large bulb that covers the boxing ring happens to be 6v

Looks like if I run it around back I’d be safe. That way I don’t create any obstruction or worse, have the blade chew into the wires and send 25v to the rest of the lights….possibly.

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#16 1 year ago

Scary part over!

Last two days has been adjusting and soldering everything in. I’ve been avoiding the 1-5 bumpers as I’ll screw them in toward the end to align with the center of the skirts.

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#17 1 year ago

The relay bank and their reset arm/coil mount separately from each other.

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To make sure they mesh well I made my own paper template off the old playfield. Just lay it down and puncture a hole with one of the screws.

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#18 1 year ago

Next step is adding in wire to run the flipper button switches to the cabinet. Factory has the switches mounted on the playfield and then piano wire sweeps in from the cabinet buttons which I've never cared for.

Green= Common
Blue= Left Flipper
Brown= Right Flipper

That's right, it's actually a line cord from Germany.

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This appears to be the best position for the left flipper bracket. So I need to move the scoop switch. Normally the switch runs parallel with the lockdown bar.

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With that in place, better make the other side match. I'm not sure if I had enough room to mount it factory orientation or not. The blue line shows where it normally would have been and where I swung it to.

Between this and the newer style flippers I have two problems getting the wires to where they need to go, as seen in red. I could make a tight fit over the flipper to the coil in the middle which I don't like. Either way I still come up short to the trough coil.
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Above I have two green X's where I'm able to come up with solutions. Split the wires up and redirect. I also don't have any need for that flipper switch so it can go away too. Below is the end result. Plenty of room to work with now. I'm not too crazy about routing wires under the flipper plate.

I worry a little about all those wires on the edge of the bracket and all the vibration it will experience. I suppose by the time it sees so much play it wears the wires bare and shorts things out I'll have had other problems by then.
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#19 1 year ago

A couple of leftover pics I have. The right button had so much extra wire I was fortunate to find the next switch it had in common was the tilt close by. So I eliminated a lot of wire right there.

What really made me scratch my head was the wiring from the factory for the right EOS switch. They ran the wire all the way through the harness in the middle of the playfield and back to the coil. Here's a demonstration on my old PF.

I would assume this was done during the harness build to make.....something....easier. Meanwhile I just shortcut things right to the switch. The only thing NOT local to the flipper is that cabinet switch so I just cut across the playfield by the two inserts.

I haven't mounted that rollover button switch yet but I'll have to dress things up so no wires press it closed.

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#20 1 year ago

Been slowly working on soldering stuff back on. Made a fair push today and got the bumpers assembled now that the playfield is on a rotisserie.

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I almost went with burple skirts to match the playfield but then they’d mismatch the caps. So blue it is

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No need for sockets anymore. Comet 1SMD warm white.

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New ring rods as discussed earlier. Sanded the rings down to 2000 and up to 7000. They are fine as they come from PBL but sanding gives them a better finish.
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1 week later
#21 1 year ago

I’m trying to talk myself into making an entire set of ball guides. Here’s how the first one went….

The far left is the bent original and is the only one that appears obviously damaged.

The middle is its mate on the other side of the playfield which I used to draw on the blank piece.

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Tape things down to a yard stick

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Crisp hole is drilled. I got a fancy drill bit set from a guy who sells these bits for a living. I helped him fix one of his pinballs last year.

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Time to cut off the excess. It’s best not to work late at night or the dremel skips into an area I didn’t want it to. Oh well, took a little more material off to even it out.

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The cutter blade (left) comes standard with just about any Dremel took kit you can buy. Thanks to vid1900 for posting that large kit for $15 on Amazon awhile ago which included another stone (right, mounted in Dremel) which was easier to control.

Not a perfect professional finish but looks respectable.

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Lined up with the rest of the guides. The throw away pushed above

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#22 1 year ago

Nice work!

1 week later
#23 1 year ago

Happy Friday!

I got motivated today…

Silly me I didn’t realize these are the unfinished sides. The other side with the plastic which looks dingy is covering up a high mirror finish. However it will probably pick up the smallest flaw I actually like this side better. It has a similar finish to the originals…albeit probably dulled from over the years.

If I add some metal polish to this side it should clean up a lot of the flaws and goobers.

Dremel is charging up now for rounding the corners.

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#24 1 year ago

These were harder than I thought. I was trying to use monuments from the old playfield to line things up and turns out things are a little different. The easiest unit of measurement was from the far edge of the side of the playfield then estimate from there.

If you look closely things don’t line up perfectly. I can’t feel too bad because the factory playfield doesn’t look like they lined things up perfectly either. Plus this wasn’t one of Wades finished products I know some changes were made before the production run. So it’s all good!

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Couple more pics…

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#25 1 year ago

This is also my first time using a WMS BLY flipper bushing on this era GTB shoe/shaft. Normally I’d use a GTB rebuild kit from Steve Young for older GTBs but as I mentioned before 1950 is too old.

So….

It turns out these bushings set the bats quite a bit higher. Using 2x 1” rings is a must. This should keep the ball from being driven into the playfield.

On the plus side I don’t think I’ll ever worry about flipper bat drag if something comes loose.

In a perfect world I’d grind them down a bit but all that playing around with stuff I don’t want to risk damage.

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All new parts were used

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#26 1 year ago

Here’s another modification I wanted to do.

I don’t want to drive any nails into the playfield since the clear likely won’t handle it well.

The ball gate metal is narrow on these older games but I relocated the post to the right to make it almost impossible for the ball to return to the shooter lane. I had to lower it enough to make sure if it rolled off the gate it wouldn’t get wedged or promote a “roll in” to the shooter lane.

From a gameplay perspective there’s really no advantage in getting the ball back to the shooter lane. Maybe you get another chance to aim at one of the 5 bumpers at the top etc

Here’s the change with the original for comparison.

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#27 1 year ago
Quoted from EJS:

This is also my first time using a WMS BLY flipper bushing on this era GTB shoe/shaft. Normally I’d use a GTB rebuild kit from Steve Young for older GTBs but as I mentioned before 1950 is too old.
So….
It turns out these bushings set the bats quite a bit higher. Using 2x 1” rings is a must. This should keep the ball from being driven into the playfield.
On the plus side I don’t think I’ll ever worry about flipper bat drag if something comes loose.
In a perfect world I’d grind them down a bit but all that playing around with stuff I don’t want to risk damage.
[quoted image]
All new parts were used
[quoted image]

I like the look of the blue and white rubber on the flipper.

1 week later
#29 1 year ago

No action this week.

Last weekend I had a few people over for pinball and seeing as how this playfield was laying in the middle of my living room I figured I better store it back in it’s cabinet for safekeeping. Not to belittle my magic city but I threw it’s playfield on the rotisserie instead (https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/getting-organized-with-ejs-and-little-johnny/page/10#post-7336005)

As you can tell I sometimes struggle staying on task, I’m doing better.

Next step for Knock Out is retrofit the rollover button in the middle. Sounds like Jets_1479 is sending me the part I’m in need of so a huge thank you for that.

Also need to polish the boxing ring so that will take some time. DavidLee wants to try some water slide decals for the worn ink on the boxers/ref

brobra was going to get me a repro glass from Shay but it sounds like he’s out of stock until next year. I checked the year before with Shay and same thing. Mine isn’t horrible but if you look close you can see lifting around the lower scoring point values and there is some fading.

3 weeks later
#30 1 year ago

A huge thank you to Jets_1479 for making this part of the project possible. He was kind enough to send not 1 but 3 sets of rollover contacts that fit the later style rollover buttons.

As a refresher here is the original style. The button is really close to the insert without any wiggle room. The new playfield already has the later style insert cleared into the playfield.
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Here are the switches that will be used. They arrived mounted on a bracket which is not needed. I’ll save them for another project.

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The rollover and screw are readily available from Steve Young at this time.

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Installed! I had to shim back the LED light so it didn’t get in the way. It appears to shine through the same spot the hammer strikes the bell on the artwork which is kind of cool!
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#31 1 year ago

Some “shop out” pics of the boxing ring. Going to get the 3 characters ready for DavidLee to work on some decals.

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3 weeks later
#32 1 year ago

Well the ring cleaned up enough.

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2 weeks later
#33 1 year ago

The plan was to decal the players but my ma got excited to get the paint pens and craft stuff out. Figured that would be a fun activity for her to keep her mind sharp. So I dropped them off a couple of days ago and got a progress update tonight.

This boxing ring is pretty much all that’s left before I attempt to turn the game on with the new playfield. I suppose I could try it now but would need to close the circuit on the two coils that manipulate the players.

BF79F3DA-EB0A-48D7-A81E-50CB56D885B4 (resized).jpegBF79F3DA-EB0A-48D7-A81E-50CB56D885B4 (resized).jpeg
#34 1 year ago
Quoted from EJS:

The plan was to decal the players but my ma got excited to get the paint pens and craft stuff out. Figured that would be a fun activity for her to keep her mind sharp. So I dropped them off a couple of days ago and got a progress update tonight.
This boxing ring is pretty much all that’s left before I attempt to turn the game on with the new playfield. I suppose I could try it now but would need to close the circuit on the two coils that manipulate the players.
[quoted image]

Nice touch up work!!

#35 1 year ago
Quoted from poppapin:

Nice touch up work!!

Supposed to be phase 1 of …. ???

As far as I’m concerned they look good enough to go back in.

#36 1 year ago

I stopped in for lunch today and checked on the progress…. (Smart idea to take a picture of the original and blow it up a little)

965A8912-1F7A-4405-B2E1-DA3C96FA7230 (resized).jpeg965A8912-1F7A-4405-B2E1-DA3C96FA7230 (resized).jpeg

Then I get a message tonight saying almost done….

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#37 1 year ago

Look great. Clearcoat after?

#38 1 year ago
Quoted from pinballplusMN:

Look great. Clearcoat after?

Triple thick at your place next week.

#39 1 year ago

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#40 1 year ago

Beautiful work!!

1 month later
#42 1 year ago
Quoted from Daditude:

Any more progress?

It’s almost plug it in time!

I got distracted with more games incoming

IMG_1587 (resized).jpegIMG_1587 (resized).jpeg
#43 1 year ago

Well....I plugged it in tonight....

I did make a video but it turned into me rambling into 18 minutes so I'm not sure if it will properly upload to iCloud for me to get to YouTube. Things always seem to fail when I go from phone to YouTube.

In case not, or if anyone wants the text "play-by-play" instead:

On first power up nothing happens other than a score in the background. That's not the worst thing. Usually it's the score motor forever spinning trying to get it stop. Turns out the opposite happens. I can't get the score motor to go. Starting a game does not improve this. But I manually spin it instead out of frustration and it eventually fixes itself. That's how you fix half of the EM problems in EM world anyway, let the machine take care of it.

Now something is stuck causing it to score points. No idea what. Keep playing around with it.

Finally that problem also resolves itself. Surprisingly none of the low point switch contacts are stuck closed. A couple need adjusting. One had the common come unsoldered.

***Where it sits right now***

I can't get my center post to drop in order for the ball to drain. From a rules perspective does anyone know when this should drop? I think I need to pay closer attention to the switch at the top of the shooter lane, this might be stuck closed somewhere. There's two sets of switches in a stack that run somewhat independently I believe.

My only feature lights are the knock down counting lights in the middle of the playfield. I can see the ghosts in the LEDs for my bumpers so they are getting some sort of power. I hope it's not an LED compatibility issue. If I'm reading my schematic correctly I might have an open contact in the tilt relay still that's killing my WH-BLK wire. My GI lighting (one bulb) doesn't work either and the bulb appeared good so that's a promising sign.

I didn't replace some of the brass coil sleeves since they are in there so good it would otherwise destroy the coil so the result is I still have some assemblies that don't return to their resting position very well. Will need to degrease or replace coils.

I'm re watching my video and see that I don't get any points for getting the ball in the scoop. This lacking score may be incorporated with my inability to drop the center post.

******

Overall I'm pleased with the operating condition, some small bugs to address. I'm basically a woodrail novice at this point. Hopefully getting this finished can motivate me to get my other woodrail setup, WMS Fairway. I'm thinking 2024 easily though.

More updates to come provided Daditude keeps my feet to the fire, which I appreciate.

#44 1 year ago
Quoted from EJS:

More updates to come provided Daditude keeps my feet to the fire, which I appreciate.

I now have an even more vested interest, as I recently was able to buy my white whale...the gottlieb knockout!

It's a GREAT game that is SUPER hard to find. I've been looking for many years.Yours looks incredible!!

#45 1 year ago

I think I've found the causes of most of my problems above:

Here's the original first power up video:

#46 1 year ago

Not the most enjoyable night BUT I got some headaches taken care of.

Figured out why my left kicker wouldn’t reset. The metal is just THAT worn it gets hung up in a divot with the roll pin. If only I could check the audits on this game and see how many more times it kicked it out of the left than the right. The machine doesn’t know left from right so they both kick but the left must have had the ball more.

IMG_1784 (resized).jpegIMG_1784 (resized).jpegIMG_1785 (resized).jpegIMG_1785 (resized).jpeg

Not perfect but much better

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Then a tab breaks off the 10,000 switch.

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I also found out I have a plunger missing and the stop bracket for the 10,000 Bell so I’ll have to remember that for my next PBR order which ironically I have an order coming now.

#47 1 year ago

So that stepper unit past the cash box inside the bottom of the game is the 300,000 unit. So if I understand correctly, when you plunge each ball, this unit resets.

You are invincible (a la Big Guns) with the ball save gate until you score an additional 300,000 points, or 300,000 on your first ball.

A lot of the rubber rings have 10,000 point switches on them. That’s the slowest way to get there. Once you get the scoop cranked up you basically lose your ball save once the ball lands in it. Those lower dead bumpers are good for 100,000 when lit too.

That’s some pretty good rules for a game this old.

#48 1 year ago
Quoted from EJS:

Then a tab breaks off the 10,000 switch.

Not a simple fix but is repairable. Which I'm sure you know.

LTG : )

#49 1 year ago
Quoted from LTG:

Not a simple fix but is repairable. Which I'm sure you know.
LTG : )

I decided to grind away some Bakelite on the adjacent tab and sneak in there with a little solder. Maybe it’ll hold for a few games or a few hundred. We’ll see. I always worry about solder spilling on the end plate in case that closes the switch.

If I did a better job I’d pop the rivets off and clip off the stub of a scrap switch blade for a better anchor and add it into the stack.

Things like this and other repairs make me wonder….what would Harry Mabs think about the fact we are trying to keep their stuff alive almost 75 years later? Especially since collecting was slim to none back then. Working on that eject hole made me think: even though they weren’t built to last…they were build to last. I wish the game counter wasn’t missing on this thing.

With the newer style assemblies I’m putting in I hope this game is playable by the year 2100. I plan to put a QR code to this thread on the apron or if newer technology comes later on I’ll include that. If someone is reading this by then it was all worth it. Who am I kidding I’ll fell that way once it starts playing which will hopefully be sooner than later.

1 week later
#50 1 year ago

Lots of pinball related distractions as of recently. But more progress tonight.

Flipper buttons are wired up tested and working. Need to dress the wires up later.

IMG_1985 (resized).jpegIMG_1985 (resized).jpeg

Still having some reset issues. Found one of the major culprits, this coil plunger and sleeve had some sort of lubricant that has turned to glue over time…that’s WD-40 for you assuming that is it. Hopefully this weekend I’ll get this cleaned up and see what else we need to do. Getting closer!

IMG_1984 (resized).jpegIMG_1984 (resized).jpeg

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