(Topic ID: 347198)

GTB Jumping Jack EM 100 pt. Score Reel and Relay Hang

By Momentum

11 days ago

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  • 42 posts
  • 5 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 7 days ago by Momentum
  • Topic is favorited by 1 Pinsider


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#1 11 days ago

GTB 2 Player Jumping Jack May 1973

To begin, I noticed I lost the chime on 100 point scores. Found 100 point M relay hung up as soon as any score is made, even 10 point targets.
Since the reels were a little reluctant to behave , I removed the now dreaded Decagon reel and went through it. I would like to know if I created a problem, because if I did not, at least I enjoyed that step, as it was straight-forward, except for no availability of the switch settings.I found some online on Youtube that seemed to make sense.
I can do all the others reels easily now which would be a sort of deranged "fun" compared to chasing my tail with these relays. Not sure if I caused any new problems during that affair, but the 100 pt reel coil plunger works smoothly, advances decently through each number when operated manually.
Problem now is, if i start a game, all is ok, but as but soon as any score is made, the 100's score reel, and the M relay both hang. I can unstick both by either manually levering the coil apart, or moving the stuck end of stroke switch on the score reel . See details below of hangs.

All of this is not happening on the player 2 score reel which uses the the same M relay.
I have placed paper under all the playfield switches I can find to eliminate them as a factor.

When I reset game, and manually close:
the 1o,ooo K relay, it does NOT hang, no chime, but it clicks the reel nicely, advances and scores.
The 1,ooo L relay manually operated, just chimes once, as it locks itself and the 1,ooo score reel requiring manual release of EOS switch
The 1oo M relay manually operated just hangs, with no score, and no chime, requiring manual release
The 1o N relay when manually operated does not itself hang, but it kinda chimes partially and hangs the 100 score real but NOT the 10 score reel

i have insulated all the switches to rule out playfield switches etc as a cause, and I think that is ruled out, hopefully,

I looked at the player unit, but could not do any work on it, as not sure of adjustment procedure. I also looked at score motor, also leery of making things worse. I do know where these are at least.

As usual, I made the mistake of trying to fix it by my self, and not asking for help. I like a challenging task, but this has had me bewildered for the last 4 days.
Now I am obsessed with fixing it. I stand ready with the measley PBR manual, and the schematic I had blown up at Fed-ex, with my trusty multimeter, trying not to make things worse.

Any help would be fantastic.

#2 10 days ago

A little background might help here. Here's the circuit for the N/10 Point relay for reference. The others work pretty much the same way.
Jumping Jack 10 point relay 2 (resized).jpgJumping Jack 10 point relay 2 (resized).jpg
There are several circuits that can fire the N relay. The circuits in black are the circuits that will fire the relay to award 10 points. The circuit in red doesn't award any points. Instead it keeps the N relay active, once fired by one of the other circuits, until the normally closed End of Stroke (EOS) switch on either player's 10 point Score Reel opens.

When the N relay fires through one of the circuits in black, it closes its own Lock In switch (labeled N, in the red circuit) to keep itself active. It needs to keep sending power to the Score Reel coil until the Score Reel plunger has pulled all the way into the coil and opened the EOS switch. Without the lock in circuit a 10 point switch behind a rebound rubber might not provide a pulse that's long enough to advance the Score Reel. The Lock In circuit makes sure that the Score Reel has done it's thing before allowing the N relay to relax.

Quoted from Momentum:

as but soon as any score is made, the 100's score reel, and the M relay both hang. I can unstick both by either manually levering the coil apart, or moving the stuck end of stroke switch on the score reel .

Sounds like you've found your problem. Why is the EOS switch not opening? Is the Score Reel plunger moving? Is the EOS switch permanently closed?


#3 10 days ago

Aha Mark that is the $64,000 question Why Why??

"Why is the EOS switch not opening? " >>>>>>When do you mean ? when is it actually supposed to? is it some process I can watch and then tell you? <<

"Is the Score Reel plunger moving?" >>>>>The plunger moves nicely, I had taken it apart and cleaned it all and made it nice. <<<<<<

"Is the EOS switch permanently closed?" If It is the lower portion of the switch that is closest to the reel it never closes when I click through reel using coil plunger. Only time i see it closed is when it locks on and i have to release it.

By the way the 10 N unit isn't the one i have the most trouble with the N or tens relay is ok for the most part and scores pretty well not perfect

It is the 100 relay M that locks all the time if I score any points. see description in post #1

I am sending pics describing the switch adjustment procedure i am using gottlieb version 2 as that is what works
version 1 is almost impossible. which should i use ?
i cannot locate clear info looked all over 30 posts 20 you tubes etc,
i am saying the top switch in the picture and my chart is the 1-8 and the 0 is the bottom.
is that right that is how my chart is showing it.

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#4 10 days ago

In the 1st pic , the plunger actuator arm should be riding on top of the lowest long blade not underneath it.
Unscrew switch and adjust.

#5 10 days ago

The 100 point relay lock in circuit is essentially the same as the others:
Jumping Jack 100 point relay lock in (resized).jpgJumping Jack 100 point relay lock in (resized).jpg
The End of Stroke switches (in red) are normally closed. In your photo the EOS switch should be the one further from the score reel and closer to the frame. Use the wire colors on the schematic above to verify.

If your score reel is working properly, the metal tab pulled back by the plunger should open the EOS switch, and allow the other switch to close.

#6 10 days ago

pinballdaveh are you saying as it is in this new pic this is not right?
All my reels are like this. So it should be below the blade in this picture is that what you mean?
I will be glad t change it and try it I just want to make sure we are talking about the same thing, Thanks for your input.

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#7 10 days ago

That pic looks correct. The 1st pic looked like it was different. Maybe dirty though me off.

#8 10 days ago
Quoted from Momentum:

except for no availability of the switch settings.

The schematic shows you the correct position of all of the Score Reel switches just after reset (when they're all at zero). Here are all of the switches on the 100 Point Score reel for Player 1 in red, not including the EOS switch shown earlier:
Jumping Jack 100 score reel switches (resized).jpgJumping Jack 100 score reel switches (resized).jpg
Use the wire colors to identify the switches on your Score Reel.
At the top of the schematic above the "9th Position 1st Hundreds" switch closes when the score reel shows a 9.
Next to it to the right, the "On Add 1st Hundreds" switch closes whenever the Score Reel fires. It's the switch next to the EOS switch below the coil plunger.
When you combine them, you fire the L/1000 point relay when the 100 point Score Reel fires, and the 100 point Score Reel is at 9.

In the middle, the "1st Hundreds Runout" opens when the Score Reel shows 0, so it won't go past zero while resetting.

At the bottom, the "1st Player Runout 100's" switch closes when the 1st player 100s Score Reel shows a zero.

#9 10 days ago

The EOS switch is opening as you said . It does that correctly.
Should I be using the adjustment per chart I made for 1st or 2nd generation ? The pic of player two coils showing the cover design on the back of reel is clearly version 1 as it changed to version 2 in March of 1975 . I am using the pic#2 above to show where i call 1-8 is the top one on down is that right?

What do you use for open or close settings on a reel like this. If you could get me the correct adswer there I feel I could get that out of the way at least.

I kinda understand what you are showing with the schematic, but am not clear what I should do next about that. Thank you for helping, I feel re-energized after a lomg toil on this one.

#10 10 days ago

OK duh I am getting on this adjustment now I saw this right after I posted

#11 10 days ago

I matched up two of the three colors on the 100 reel even though faded but the MAR+YEL is actually green and red and white, which is also found on the 1000 reel
... there is a hitchhiker on the back of that switch you can see in photo that is yellow and purple, thay I do not see yet on schematic.

Ok to clarify, am I now only needing to adjust these switches you show me at the reset position all zeros.?
I have found after the last week that the terminology 1-8, 0 and 9 are to represent positions where reels are to be at, so adjustments can be performed, being all concerned with wire form proper tension and much fiddling. I guess we are finished with the 0 scenario but how about the procedure and settings for the other two ?

Is this the correct orientation looking at the switch from the side ? Which one is the run-out?

Top Switch at 9 position on reel

Middle Switch at 0 position on reel

Bottom Switch with reel on 1-8is any other 1-8 position

In tutorials there were provisions for th 3 rows of switches in 3 positions on reel 9/ 0 / 1-8

I am going back now and setting the other reels the way you have shown me. Thanks very much.

Sending 2 pics one shows the 100 reeland the other is the 1000 reel for reference

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#12 10 days ago

Note that in Gottlieb EM games purple cloth covered wire is really maroon, so your purple-yellow is really maroon-yellow. Also, wire color mistakes are not at all common.

See https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/gottlieb-wire-color-trivia for more wire color information.

Rather than trying to adjust all of the switches (which is generally not advisable), have you tried to see if the game resets and scores properly? Chances are that few if any of those switches are not working properly.

#13 10 days ago

Mark I will get right on this in the morning and get back to you. Thanks for the insight.

#14 9 days ago

I am studying what you sent, to try to ask more intelligent questions. Just so you know, the 2nd player relay has no issues with me hitting a 100 point bumper, it scores, and chimes and the relays do not stick.

However, Player 2 moves the 100 and 1000 and 10,000 all together when manually trigger the bumper 100 point score. This may just be sticky reels I can clean, but there is much hanging at 9 at times perhaps making them roll together.

On player 1 if I trigger the bumper, the 100 relay hangs instantly / so does the 100 reel. This is the problem I need to solve. <<<<

To answer your question if scores all clear at start, up the answer is no. I have to do a weird rain dance pushing the plunger on the player unit in the backbox to alternate between player 1 and 2 as well as manually spinning some of the the wheels to zero. Sometimes after some of this activity it will just start a game with scores still on the reel.

I may see if i can find one of your youtubes on player unit rebuild. I have watched several others of yours and enjoy them. Probably wait until we fix the sticking relay and reels before I venture in to another variable.

I am sending a pic of another way I am releasing the stuck relay ( as well as unsticking the reel, since this activates the EOS switch ) so in case that is a clue.

Also pic of what may be involved wire from schematic

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#15 9 days ago
Quoted from Momentum:

On player 1 if I trigger the bumper, the 100 relay hangs instantly / so does the 100 reel. This is the problem I need to solve. <<<<

Have another look at the schematic in reply #5. The M/100 point relay activates when you hit a bumper and locks itself on with the three switches shown. The fact that the 2nd player works properly tells you that the EOS switch on the 100 point Score Reel for player 2 is opening as it should to release the M relay.

Somehow the same switch on the player 1 Score Reel is not opening so the M relay never gets released. Either the switch isn't opening or its solder tabs are touching or there's some other kind of short between the white-orange and brown+white wires.

Compare the two 100 point Score Reels to see if you can detect any differences in how the EOS switches look or operate.

Quoted from Momentum:

I may see if i can find one of your youtubes on player unit rebuild. I have watched several others of yours and enjoy them.

I don't have any youtube videos. All my stuff is on my own website, FunWithPinball.com. You're thinking perhaps of the Goat Shed videos?

#16 9 days ago

After staring at the 100 point reel for an hour, I played a game of spot the difference to try and identify any issues. I even took apart the Player 1 reel to inspect it, but everything looked to be in perfect condition and functioned smoothly. I checked the wires on the relay and the reel, but they also seemed to be in good shape. I used a magnifying glass to inspect them further, but still couldn't find any problems. I agree with your assessment that the switch isn't being released and that this is likely the root of the issue.

What else can I do to troubleshoot this, Unsolder wires and put back one at a time? Which ones? or run jumpers from relay to reel things like that?

I did have you confused with Mark's Basement guy and his videos. I recognized your avatar, and remember you giving some solid advise in a number of posts I have looked at for the last 6 months. I do like the goat shed guys, I find them fun to watch.

Where next? Meanwhile I will keep looking.

#17 9 days ago

Watching a slow motion video taken with a cellphone often helps diagnose this kind of problem

#18 9 days ago

HowardR I will try that .
The 100 relay when triggered by playfield bumper locks not only the 100 relay and reel, but the 1000 relay and reel as well.

Also what about this chart I used to make settings should I go ahead and do this and keep the 0 settings you gave me

Im not sure which of the switched is the 9"s which could be part of the problem I assumed it was the top one but this chart says different

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#19 9 days ago

I'm jumping in without all the facts, but since you know which switch you're having problems with, did you use a meter to see if the switch opens and closes like it should? Alligator clips will be your friend while checking.

What I'm wondering is if the tube that goes thru the switch stack is missing or broken, allowing the screw to maintain contact regardless of switch position. I know that's a very rare issue, but at this point, you're missing all your hair, so it would be one more thing to check, plus it won't take much time.

Also, I'm not familiar with this game, but is the EOS activated by the coil plunger and not the scoring wheel paws? Could OP be looking at the wrong switch?

#20 9 days ago

Hello Bill, welcome aboard yes, the EOS, which as you look at the reel with solenoid at top EOS is on the left of the solenoid and it’s actuated by the arm on the solenoid plunger, moving up and down it’s separate from the other three switches over to the right that are what are referred to as the nine position the run out switch and the zero position switch. As I mentioned above, the thousand reel is doing the same thing but I did take both 1000 and 100 reels apart, so I could’ve created my own problem,like I said in my first post. I am excited to try any ideas since I have no hair now and have nothing to lose . I actually thought there might be something internally wrong with the EOS switch stack but I don’t know what to look for. I guess I can look at the number 2 player switch, and take it apart, and see if it looks like the one that’s messing up, but actually it’s both 100 reel and relay and 1000 reel and relay so it’ll be kind of rare that they both have internal problems with the switch but anything sounds worth a try at this point. Thank you for helping Bill.

#21 9 days ago

One would be rare, two means you need to buy a lottery ticket

Good luck. I’m following.

#22 9 days ago

Just got home from 2 hours of Turkey Day shopping about to jump in to Jumping Jack

#23 9 days ago

I'm not sure what this step proves but here goes somebody might be able to interpret what it means .

I took the EOS switch completely out of the 100 ( still connected and operational) to see if it was shorting to its mount, it did not help, it still locked up the relay and score reel, until I put paper in it see below:

I put a piece of paper in the lower portion of each of the 100, and the 1000 EOS switches, and then triggered the 100 relay, when I did, strangely to me, both reels turned at the same time, like in the movie shown below. NO locking of the relay or the reel, I even got a bit of chime here and there, as I clicked it.
Did the same thing of course when I triggered a 100 bumper on the playfield.

If I trigger the 1000 relay, only the 1000 reel moves which seems more normal to me. no movement from the 100 reel or relay

In case I had put the EOS switch upside down when cleaning the reel, I even turned the EOS switch upside down and tried it no help.

Billc479 I would love to try the my meter if you tell me AC or DC or Ohms and where to put the leads.

#24 9 days ago

set meter to ohms. Touch both leads together and read the meter. It should be zero or close to it. (Set the meter to lowest possible setting, for example 200 ohms, not 2000 ohms). With power off, Connect one lead to one leaf of the switch, and the other lead to the leaf that it makes/breaks with. You should read a high resistance if the switch is open. While watching the meter, activate the reel by hand. You should see the meter go to opposite of your initial reading.

Report your findings.

#25 9 days ago
Quoted from Momentum:

The 100 relay when triggered by playfield bumper locks not only the 100 relay and reel, but the 1000 relay and reel as well.

You'd see that if the 9th position switch in red in reply #8 (on the 100 point Score Reel) were stuck closed, or shorted.

#26 9 days ago

Mark, do you mean wire for 9th position such as the MAR YEL which is actually PURPLE - YEL , BTW I read your intriguing write up on that , I love history and I love Pinball, so it was a great read, thanks for doing that. I will look at this and see if I can find a short in that wire, is that what you are suggesting?

Bill I got those readings of the EOS switch on 100 Reel

Top Switch
Closed .2 ohm
Open .4 ohm

Bottom Switch
Closed .3ohm
Open O.L. infinite

I am including a pic so you can see what I am calling top and the pen is pointing to it

IMG_5533 (resized).jpgIMG_5533 (resized).jpg
#27 9 days ago

It sounds like the top switch is seeing another closure downstream.

Just for grins, can you desoldering one of the wires on the top switch and try again? It should give the same results as the bottom switch. (Near zero and infinite)

Based on these readings, you may have given someone a better clue as to what’s going on.

#28 9 days ago


top switch reading after removed Yellow and purple wire

Closed 0 ohm closed

Open O.L

#29 9 days ago

Sounds like the switch is working fine and the short is between the two wires that connect to it. What does the meter say (assuming one wire is still disconnected)?

#30 9 days ago

Mark / "what does the meter say" when hooked to what do you mean ? Measuring between what and what?

#31 9 days ago

Mark// reading the resistance between the now bare terminal, and the other opposite terminal on the 100 reel, measured same before above, is still at 0-1 ohm closed, and OL open. Is that what you were asking?
Seems like I should find the other end of these two wires, and run new wires alongside the originals to then test again. I found the mar yel which is purple and yellow as you know, on the player 2 hundreds, and it i tried jumping from it to the bare terminal on the 100 reel but it did not help. Relays and reels till locked when triggered. Drat !

#32 9 days ago

With the EOS switch wired up, you measured a short circuit (< 1 ohm) with the switch both open and closed. So the switch had no effect in the circuit. When you removed one of the wires from the EOS switch, the switch measured as it should (open circuit when open, short circuit when closed). That implies that the short is not in the switch but somewhere in the switch's wiring. So if you measure the resistance between the ends of the two EOS switch wires (white-orange and brown+white) with at least one of them not attached to the EOS switch, it seems likely that you'll measure a short circuit even when they should be electrically isolated.

Quoted from Momentum:

I found the mar yel which is purple and yellow as you know, on the player 2 hundreds, and it i tried jumping from it to the bare terminal on the 100 reel but it did not help.

Look again at the schematic in reply #8 - in particular the top two lines. Each of the 100 point score reels has a maroon+yellow wire between two switches. Even though they're the same color, the two maroon+yellow wires are not attached to each other. They're completely different circuits. In fact there may be other unrelated maroon+yellow wires elsewhere in the game. Jumpering them together may have unintended or unexpected results.

Based on your observations it seems that somehow you have a short between the white-orange and brown+white wires in the schematic in reply #5. See if you can find the orange-white wire on the M/100 point relay switch, and follow it from there through the wire bundle to the EOS switch on the 100 point score reel for player 1. See if there are any bare spots, or rubbing on frames, or solder tabs touching etc. Do the same with the brown+white wire from the EOS switch on the player 1 score reel to the EOS switch on the player 2 score reel.

#33 8 days ago

Mark, and all others helping, Happy Thanksgiving, Thank you for this idea. I spent an hour looking for a short of any kind on the two wires below, and it all looks original, with no rubbing, tight turns, solder blobs or any unsatisfactory-looking arrangements.

Checking for, as you suggested:

Checked both wires for short between the white-orange and brown+white wires from EOS and Relay

At this point, since nothing conclusive here, should I unsolder both ends of an existing wire, and run an external jumper to substitute for it, then, if no help, run one to simulate the other ??

Seems like next logical step?

#34 8 days ago

So the two pics below are of the wires at the 100 relay and the orange and white wire on the score reel and the brown wires on the relay

With game off, about 6 terminals on the 100 relay have 40 or 50 ohms continuity with the orange and white wire on the EOS switch on the score reel.

I get numerous terminals on the 100 relay reading 40 or 50 ohms ( I also get roughly the same amount of continuity as testing orange and white ) between the brown and white wire on the EOS switch on 100 reel and the 100 relay. I do not know if this is normal?

I am getting < 1 ohm between the 100 point EOS score reel switch and the orange and white wire on the 100 relay

I am getting the same < 1 ohm on the cluster of wires (not sure what color this wire is) the probe is touching in the picture, on the 100 point relay, and on the brown and white wire on the switch, on the 100 point EOS score reel

Is any of this helpful?

IMG_5536 (resized).JPGIMG_5536 (resized).JPGIMG_5537 (resized).JPGIMG_5537 (resized).JPG
#35 8 days ago

Look again at the schematic in reply #5. The EOS switch has white-orange and brown+white wires and it should be normally closed. I think it was also mentioned that it should be closer to the frame, further from the score reel, so that it opens when the score reel fires.

It looks like your switch stack has been reversed so the EOS switch is normally open and closer to the reel, so it closes when the score reel activates instead of opening.

#36 8 days ago

OI have an important update to share. I removed from the 100 relay the YEL-RED-BLU wire (which is mostly yellow with a bit of red and blue) connected to the 100 relay. Now, it works perfectly without getting stuck or affecting the relay or score reel. It advances the score reel flawlessly, no chime yet.

I also worked on the wire with equal parts white, green, on the 1000 relay. I removed it successfully without any problems with the reel or relay. The chime works on the first trigger, but not on subsequent triggers, which is still a great improvement.

Both of these same or same colored wires lead to one of the solenoid coils for the score reel on each score reel, and you can see the removal and wire colors in the attached picture. Additionally, I have included a schematic picture.

Could anyone tell me which wires I removed correspond to the schematic? My next step is to figure out what they do and how to eliminate the short.

IMG_5542 (resized).JPGIMG_5542 (resized).JPGIMG_5543 (resized).JPGIMG_5543 (resized).JPGIMG_5544 (resized).JPGIMG_5544 (resized).JPG
#37 7 days ago

Hey Mark, you were dead on it I went and flipped the EOS switch around and solved that problem on the 100 relay and then I noticed the thousand was the same way so I took that score real and turn it around and now neither one of them or the two relays are locking up. I have some other issues, but I wanted to report that.

#38 7 days ago

FIXED! OK, I am so excited and relieved now that I put it all back together, and the chimes are just about right; the original goal was the bumper not chiming on 100, which is fixed! It is crazy that those reels were wrong. I bought it like that, and I guess I did not create my problem.

Both the 100 and 1000-reel EOS switch packs were upside down, so I had to remove the screws and turn the switch over, that way letting the switch wires, which should be normally closed, be closed. The switch wires should have been closed, just like Mark pointed out in post #5.

In post #35, Mark spelled out super clearly what to do. I did it, and it fixed it. I am very impressed and appreciative of his skill and patience. Pretty daunting that he can figure out this issue, and not even be here to see it. I am so glad to be on this forum.

The wire harness was not happy being rotated into a new shape, so it must have been that way for a long time.

On the schematic in the image below, how should I have known it was talking about the EOS portion of the reel, as compared to the switch pack, also on the reel? I see it says 1st 100's reel, but how does one know which area of the reel it is showing? Is it just by wire color, or is there a known way to tell this?

I have yet to sort out why, to start a game, I have to cycle the Player Unit from Player 1 to Player 2 and maybe a few more times to get it around to Player 1 Ball 1 by pressing in on the Player Unit solenoid plunger due to the score reels yakking away ( even after I manually bump any stragglers to 0, and to kick the ball out, to start a game.

I planned to review posts and watch videos before asking for help.

So my question is, should I leave this post open so I can come back and ask you guys about it if I need it?


Should I start fresh with the new information / in a new post if I need more help?

IMG_5558 (resized).JPGIMG_5558 (resized).JPG
#39 7 days ago

I would mark this one completed and start a new thread. That will reduce confusion and help folks in the future who may have the same issue.

#40 7 days ago

Yes I agree, I will do that, I will wait to close this out in case MarkG has time to answer my question about the schematic, so you guys keep an eye out for me.Stay tuned! Thanks to all.

Thank you to:

#41 7 days ago
Quoted from Momentum:

On the schematic in the image below, how should I have known it was talking about the EOS portion of the reel, as compared to the switch pack, also on the reel? I see it says 1st 100's reel, but how does one know which area of the reel it is showing? Is it just by wire color, or is there a known way to tell this?

Usually the wire color and switch label/description are enough to identify any switch. Gottlieb at least did not use a given wire color more than once on any device (relay, score reel, stepper, etc.)

If your wire colors have faded you could always find the other end (or another end) of the same wire in the schematic and use a meter to verify that the two devices are connected in the game (since wire colors are reused in different devices).

I don't think you close a topic. You could mark it fixed though.

#42 7 days ago

Dear Mark,
Thank you for your guidance. I appreciate your advice and will keep it in mind. Your help has lifted my spirits and made my situation much better.
Now, I think it's time for me to take a break and do something mindless like playing a game or focusing on cosmetic work for a while. However, I know myself too well, and I'll probably keep working on the current project until it's serviceable and then move on to the next one.
I'm grateful to have access to this helpful forum, which makes me feel like I'm not alone in my quest for solutions.
Thank you to everyone who has contributed to this community.
Best regards,
Rory (Momentum)

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