(Topic ID: 338531)

GTB flipper clown roto target

By durriti

1 year ago


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  • 14 posts
  • 3 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 1 year ago by durriti
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20230701_132736 (resized).jpg
20230701_132508 (resized).jpg
Flipper Clown W O relays 2L 3R (resized).jpg
Flipper Clown O relay (resized).jpg
#1 1 year ago

Hello All,

Gottlieb Flipper Clown is not adding a ball when the right score value is higher than the left score value. Lifting the playfield and playing the game by finger, l noticed that the L1 relay is sticking on, in the parts book this is described as a magnet type relay. If l just tap the armature, it releases. l don't think this is the main problem but its the first thing l found wrong. Any ideas how to cure the sticking armature?.
Thanks in advance.

#2 1 year ago

It could be caused by residual magnetism, if so, a piece of insulating tape on the armature should cure the problem.

Otherwise, replace armature and/or coil.

Another possibility is mechanical binding of the armature at the pivot point, cleaning, deburring and a small amount of Superlube on the pivot point should cure it.

Also, sometimes wear on the armature where it meets the coil core can cause problems, file/polish to smooth armature if this is the case.

#3 1 year ago

Thanks Quercus, The tape and lube cured that problem, the relay had worn through the armature plating so tape is the answer. But now the real problem(s)...

The roto target doesn't award extra balls correctly. The game should award an extra ball when the right target value is greater than the left target value. l conducted a test were l hit/made red target first and white after and then the white target first and red after, advancing the roto target one place at a time. This gives 15 variations but no random variations. Below results.

Red target/roll-over hit/made 1st

red value white value
12 10 Adds ball - incorrect
2 5 Adds no ball - incorrect
6 11 Adds no ball - incorrect
15 12 Adds no ball - correct
13 2 Adds no ball - correct
7 6 Adds ball - incorrect
3 15 Adds ball - correct
8 13 Adds no ball - incorrect
14 7 Adds no ball - correct
4 3 Adds no ball - correct
9 8 Adds no ball - correct
15 14 Adds no ball - correct
10 4 Adds no ball - correct
5 9 Adds no ball - incorrect
11 15 Adds ball - correct

White target/roll-over hit/made 1st

white value red value
10 12 Adds no ball - correct
5 2 Adds No ball - incorrect
11 6 Adds no ball - incorrect
12 15 Adds ball - incorrect
2 13 Adds no ball - correct
6 7 Adds ball - incorrect
15 3 Adds ball - correct
13 8 Adds no ball - incorrect
7 14 Adds ball - incorrect
3 4 Adds ball - incorrect
8 9 Adds ball - incorrect
14 15 Adds ball - incorrect
4 10 Adds ball - incorrect
9 5 Adds no ball - incorrect
15 11 Adds ball - correct.

When the left target is made the L1, left target and P & L relays pull in. When the right target is made the P1, right target and P & L relays pull in.

If l set the red target to 3 and white to 15, the win relay also pulls in and adds a ball, as it should do.

If l set the red target to 14 and white to 7, the left target lose relay pulls in briefly and releases and then the win relay pulls in adding a ball, as it shouldn't.

I did notice that the switch on the left target lose relay are closed until the relay is pulsed.

In an previous post by MarkG, he explains how this game determins the higher value, which l have read several times, but l am no closer to figurering why these have odd faults.

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/gottleib-flipper-clown-plays-but-doesn-t-start-electrocuted-me#post-7289946

Any ideas or pointers please say.

Thanks in advance.

#4 1 year ago

Are the results consistent? If they are, perhaps the left scoring unit and right scoring unit wiper plates are in the wrong positions?

Frankly, it sounds like a problem that needs Mark G's expertise

#5 1 year ago
Quoted from durriti:

I did notice that the switch on the left target lose relay are closed until the relay is pulsed.

This is expected because the "1B" in the relay table means that the O relay has 1 normally closed (B) switch:
Flipper Clown O relay (resized).jpgFlipper Clown O relay (resized).jpg

Quoted from durriti:

When the left target is made the L1, left target and P & L relays pull in. When the right target is made the P1, right target and P & L relays pull in.

This is hard to follow because there are no P or L relays. There's P1, P2, L1 and L2.

It might be useful to do a simpler experiment. You could for example try all combinations of 2 and 3. The four experiments would be:

- move the Roto Target so 2 is on the left, then hit the 2, move the Roto Target so 3 is on the right, then hit the 3
- move the Roto Target so 3 is on the right, then hit the 3, move the Roto Target so 2 is on the left, then hit the 2
- move the Roto Target so 3 is on the left, then hit the 3, move the Roto Target so 2 is on the right, then hit the 2
- move the Roto Target so 2 is on the right, then hit the 2, move the Roto Target so 3 is on the left, then hit the 3

In each case observe if/when the W and O relays fire, and whether you get an added ball.

/Mark

#6 1 year ago

Quercus, l did the test 3 times to check the consistently and it was right and wrong in the same places. Thanks for the input.

Mark G, l misnamed the relay, l should have typed P & L relay control relay - H on the schematic. l also realise the left target lose relay - 'O' relay
is meant to be closed as you state. l will carry out your test this weekend, l'm concreting this week my hands are shellshock by the end of the day... But thanks for the input.

#7 1 year ago

Mark G,

Carried out your test here are the results.

move the Roto Target so 2 is on the left, then hit the 2, move the Roto Target so 3 is on the right, then hit the 3 No fire in either W or O relays

move the Roto Target so 3 is on the right, then hit the 3, move the Roto Target so 2 is on the left, then hit the 2 No fire in either W or O relays

move the Roto Target so 3 is on the left, then hit the 3, move the Roto Target so 2 is on the right, then hit the 2 No fire in either W or O relays

move the Roto Target so 2 is on the right, then hit the 2, move the Roto Target so 3 is on the left, then hit the 3 No fire W but O relay fired

In all cases no extra balls were added.

Thanks again for your thoughts.

#8 1 year ago
Quoted from durriti:

move the Roto Target so 2 is on the left, then hit the 2, move the Roto Target so 3 is on the right, then hit the 3 No fire in either W or O relays

Ok, let's start with this one. I think W relay should have fired in this case, awarding an extra ball. Here is the path I think it should have used:
Flipper Clown W O relays 2L 3R (resized).jpgFlipper Clown W O relays 2L 3R (resized).jpg
After hitting the 2 on the left and the 3 on the right the upper and lower stepper wipers in the schematic should be in the positions shown in red and the path to fire the W relay should complete. This also assumes that the P2 relay fired and closed its switches before the steppers reset.

You could test this path by unplugging the game and manually putting the left stepper in its 2nd position and the right stepper in its 3rd position. Then with a meter you could buzz out the path through the steppers. Clip one probe to the yellow-black wire at the bottom of the drawing that leads into the right stepper. Clip the other probe to the orange-red wire coming out of the right stepper. Is there low resistance (1 ohm or less) to the orange-red wire? If so, move one probe from the orange-red wire to the green+black wire coming out of the left stepper. There should still be low resistance.

Notice that you should be able to repeat the experiment for the two steppers in many positions:
left at 3, right at 4
left at 4, right at 5
left at 5, right at 6
or any case where the right is one step up from the left.

Also check that the two P2 relay switches are clean and closing reliably.

#9 1 year ago

Mark G,
l've done as you ask. With the left stepper in position 2 and right in position 3, l've tested from the yel-blk (at the p2 relay), to the right stepper -3rd position, to left stepper -2nd position, to the gr-blk, (at the p2 relay), reading just over 1 ohms but yel-blk to W relay sl-blk is about 1.5 ohms, (P2 relay in activated position). P2 switches are good, thanks for your help.

#10 1 year ago

What happens if you manually activate the P2 relay with the left stepper at 2 and the right stepper at 3? It should fire the W relay.

#11 1 year ago

l press the game button, machine resets, hit left target at 2 and them hit right target at 3, W relay does not pulse. If l hit right target at 3, and left target at 2, the W relay does not pulse. l can see what you driving at as the test from yel-blk through to sl-blk on the W relay show continuity.
Looking into the machine to see what relays move when l hit right target at 3. Score motor turns, stepper coil pulses, P1 and P2 relays pulse followed by P and L control relay (H relay),(slight delay), score motor finishes 3rd turn of a turn.
When l hit left target at 2. Score motor turns, stepper coil pulses, L1 and L2 and P and L control relay pulse, these last three pulse at the same time, score motor finishes 3rd of a turn.
When second target is made, J relay - both red/white steppers reset pulses. Any thoughts?, thanks again.

#12 1 year ago

Did you try the suggestion in reply #10? During a game, manually step the left stepper to 2 and the right stepper to 3, then manually close the P2 relay. That should be enough to fire the W relay.

#13 1 year ago

There's another possibility suggested by Steve Young. The wiper boards on the left and right scoring steppers may have been swapped. You could test that theory by stepping the left stepper to position 2 and the right stepper to position 3 (as shown in the schematic in reply #8) and verifying all the connections each stepper should make.

With the left stepper in position 2 there should be connections between:
- blue-red and brown+black
- orange-red and green+black

Similarly with the right stepper in position 3 there should be connections between:
- yellow-black and orange-red
- maroon-white and slate+black

Note that color1-color2 is not the same as color1+color2 (or color1&color2 as on the Flipper Clown schematic).
See https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/gottlieb-wire-color-trivia for details.

#14 1 year ago

MarkG,
l missunderstood your suggestion by not manually loading values on stepper and now can not do that until find/fix a new problem.
Tens relay sticking on, but Steve Young's suggestion bears fruit, see pictures. The first picture is the white righthand stepper, the wiper arm has four sprung shoes, two inline and two offset, these are paired together via bare copper wire. It needs four offset wiper shoes to run over four rows of brass studs.
Second picture is the red lefthand stepper, the wiper arm has four sprung shoes all offset, in two pairs. The wiper arm needs to run on four rows of brass studs to run over, as you can see one of the shoes makes no contact with any stud...
l've now swopped the arms over and ran a repeat test on targets hit/made giving out correct add ball or add no ball. Its mostly right except when 15 is hit/made first then the reset problem.

Red target/roll-over hit/made 1st

red value white value
12 10 Adds no ball - correct
2 5 Adds ball - correct
6 11 Adds ball - correct
15 12 resets before 2nd target hit/made - incorrect
13 2 Adds no ball - correct
7 6 Adds no ball - correct
3 15 Adds ball - correct
8 13 Adds ball - correct
14 7 Adds no ball - correct
4 3 Adds no ball - correct
9 8 Adds no ball - correct
15 14 resets before 2nd target hit/made - incorrect
10 4 Adds no ball - correct
5 9 Adds ball - correct
11 15 Adds ball - correct

White target/roll-over hit/made 1st

white value red value
10 12 Adds no ball - correct
5 2 Adds ball - correct
11 6 Adds ball - correct
12 15 Adds no ball - correct
2 13 Adds no ball - correct
6 7 Adds no ball - correct
15 3 resets before 2nd target made - incorrect
13 8 Adds ball - correct
7 14 Adds no ball - correct
3 4 Adds no ball - correct
8 9 Adds no ball - correct
14 15 Adds no ball - correct
4 10 Adds no ball - correct
9 5 Adds ball - correct
15 11 resets before 2nd target hit/made - incorrect.

20230701_132508 (resized).jpg20230701_132508 (resized).jpg
20230701_132736 (resized).jpg20230701_132736 (resized).jpg

but in the process of swopping wipers l have caused the new problem of the tens relay sticking on, if any switch with a value of ten is hit the relay sticks on and it doesn't carry over from the units but does stick the tens relay, plus if l manually add a some tens, if l press the game button the score motor cicles as the tens is not zero'ing. More probing required

Thanks for your help and nod the steve young.

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