(Topic ID: 205682)

GTB Flipper Clown reset issue

By Steve_B

6 years ago


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  • 28 posts
  • 4 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 6 years ago by Mopar
  • Topic is favorited by 1 Pinsider

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#1 6 years ago

Score reels reset, ball count unit counts up to 5 balls then continues counting up to 10 then down to game over then back up to 10 etc, motor continues to run, relay bank reset coil does not activate, S-armature contact cleaned and adjusted, manually activating bank reset coil does not reset game.

Schematic shows two pathways to the bank reset coil. One "normal" path and one path when the game ends from a Tilt. If the game is "tilted" during the startup the bank reset coil will fire but the motor still runs. The coil does not fire during then"normal" path. Score reels all reset to zero during this issue. Motor continues to run.

The game was working fine, scoring correctly, resetting correctly, then was shut off overnight. Upon starting the game the next day was when the problem showed up. Nothing was done to the game from when it was shut down overnight to restarting the next day.

Any suggestions as to where to look to correct the related problems (no bank reset and motor run on)? Check a Motor switch? Relay bank switch? Ball count unit zero position? Etc.
Thanks.

#2 6 years ago

Okay, so the Reset Relay is energizing and stepping up the Ball Count.
For the Ball Count to stop on ball 5, the Bank Reset needs to energize.
I just looked at the schematics, and I thought it was the Reset Relay,
but it's the Start Relay (in the Bank Reset) that once energized, it makes
a switch (S Armature switch) which is attached to the Bank Reset's frame
work..
That switch is tied into the Bank Reset coil's circuitry and that circuitry is
completed once the Ball Count Unit steps up to the 4th position. It doesn't
seem it would be a bad rivot connection in the Ball Count Unit, or the 5th
position's rivot(s) would take over and energize the Bank Reset's coil.
So my guess would be that tricky to get to Armature Switch on the Bank
Reset's frame isn't making good connection. If not that, then maybe might
want to check the switch aliments on the backside of the Ball Count Unit..

#3 6 years ago

Mopar
The S-armature switch was my first thought. I checked it several times for proper gap and operation but motor still runs continuously and reset doesn't complete.
Ball Count Unit correctly lights the lamps in positions "game over" and numbers 1-10, so I do believe the wipers are aligned with the rivets and making contact. Visual inspection also confirms this but I'll check the BCU again.
I also checked all the other N.O. switches that may cause the motor to run including motor 1C and they were all open. The only other switch I need to look at is the make/break on the S relay that changes after a normal startup.
Not easy working on that relay bank frame!
Thanks for the help.

#4 6 years ago

Found a stuck switch in the ball trough. May or may not have been related to issue but some progress made as a result.
Now upon starting the game the motor still continues to spin but it will now stop if I manually activate the relay bank reset coil.
Once the motor stops the game plays normally through all 5 balls down to game over.
But restarting the game results in the motor spinning again. Final issue must be in the make/break switch on S, or the S armature.

#5 6 years ago

Okay, progress! So the Reset Bank coil now energizes and reset's the
bank and ball count stops on ball 5, but the motor continues to run?

#6 6 years ago

Mopar
Found the problems. After locating the bank reset switch on the back of the BCU I cleaned the contacts that were badly pitted and set the gap. That cured the relay bank reset issue.

But the motor continued to run, the BCU add and subtract coils acted weird, and the score reels didn't always reset to zero. So I checked the motor switch positions on the motor switch map and found the most likely switch that may be causing the problems was the inside switch at Motor 1A. That switch reset the scoring units and actuates the balls to play unit.

That inside switch at 1A was in the most difficult location to service since this game didn't have the hinged motor mount frame that allows the motor to be tilted up. I had to remove the entire set of switch stacks at position 1 (1A, B, and C) in order to get at the damaged switch. The contacts were badly burned and pitted, gap was incorrect, and the insulating fish paper was worn through.

I replaced the switch and insulation, reassembled the stack, reset the gaps and hours later fired it up. The game reset and started with no further issues. Several games later working fine with no issues.
Thanks to all that provided comments.

#7 6 years ago

Okay, that's good news! The earliest Wedge Head that I've worked on in recent
years I believe is a 1964. I don't remember the earlier ones with the score
motor not hinging, but yes, that lower 1A is tricky to get to especially with the
score motor not being able to tilt upward..
My 2nd choice was the BCU contacts, but whenever an Armature switch is in the
equation and being tough to get to and adjust, that's where I first recheck..
One day I'll have the Flipper Clown set up again along with the others.. (T)

#8 6 years ago

Today I've been working on the instruction card set for Flipper Clown.
I'm still missing a few cards to make it more and more complete.
Do any of you guys have card images for me please?
Looking for:
A-6851-1 instruction card confirmed.
A-6852-1 instruction card confirmed.
A-6853-1 instruction card NEEDED.
A-6854-1 instruction card NEEDED.
A-6855-1 instruction card confirmed.
A-6856-1 instruction card confirmed.
A-6857-1 instruction card NEEDED.
A-6858-1 instruction card NEEDED.
A-6859-1 instruction card confirmed.

These are all 5 balls per game.
I don't know if there are 3 balls per game cards.

Peter
www.inkochnito.nl

#9 6 years ago

After several games with no issues, a new problem has arisen. During a game restart after "game over", the reset sequence starts correctly, resets everything, counts up to 5 balls to play, then stops as it should. But often (about 30% of the time) it briefly stops at 5 balls to play then adds another ball or two (6 or 7 balls to play). When this happens the relay bank reset coil also fires a second time.

I've looked at the schematic trying to trace the switches that activate the "add balls to play unit" coil. Adjusting motor 2C or 4B didn't help. Switches on relays W and K were correctly gapped. Switches on relays J, D, and B were also correctly gapped. Don't know where else to look. Don't see anything else that activates "add balls to play unit". Any suggestions appreciated.

Also, would someone know the startup sequence for this era game (March, 1962).
Thanks.

#10 6 years ago

Check your score motor runout sw. to make sure it's closing completely.

#11 6 years ago

The Ball Count Unit completes the Bank Relay when it steps up to
the 4th position. You might want to make sure that the Ball Count's
spring loaded wipers aren't a little sticky. When cleaning the Ball
Count's wiper board, I put a couple of drops of light weight oil
in each of the spring loaded wiper's holes. I also had to repair the
4th position's rivot so the Bank Reset would get its full current.
But because it's doing it at times on the 5th position also, if it is
Ball Count related, I'd have to say that it's one of the snow shoes in
the Ball Count's wiper..
blockquote cite="#4147768">it briefly stops at 5 balls to play then adds another ball or two (6 or 7 balls to play).

#12 6 years ago

Score motor run out checked and closing completely with good contact.
Ball count wipers verified that they are freely moving and making contact with the rivets. Electrical continuity confirmed across positions 4-9. Relay bank reset switch on BCU functioning properly.

Since it appears that the game may be trying to reset more than once, and not completing the second reset, what are the reset steps for this year's game? Which switch in the reset sequence drops out to end the reset?

I'll try to post a scan of the schematic later.

#13 6 years ago

Any problem with different specials adding more than one ball?

#14 6 years ago
Quoted from Steve_B:

Which switch in the reset sequence drops out to end the reset?

I'm pretty sure that it's the S (Start Relay) Armature switch in the Reset Bank.
If the Start Relay doesn't latch when the BCU is in it's 4th step up during reset, the 5th step up positon
will give it a try, then the 6th, and ect. which is why, at times, it's starting out with more than 5 balls.
I know it's a little tricky, but maybe the S Armature's switches can be gapped a little closer while their
opened, so when they're closed, they'll have a very slight longer contact time..
Just also thought of something else. I can't quite recall on the early 60s machines, but if the Reset Bank
has a small adjustment plate on each side with two adjustment screws toward the bottom to adjust the
Reset Bar while it's at rest, maybe backing off those two plates so that it takes the Reset Coil a little
longer throw to reset may keep the S Armature's switches closed slightly longer..

#15 6 years ago

I don't think the gaps matter so much. Here's the schematic for my Flipper Parade, which is pretty similar.

img138 (resized).jpgimg138 (resized).jpg

FP.pdfFP.pdf

#16 6 years ago

Thanks for hanging in there with me on this issue. Intermittent problems are a pita.
I'll try gapping the S-armature again. I did try moving the adjustable plate on the relay bank reset coil to get a longer stroke from the coil plunger. It didn't help. I'll try adjusting the reset bar as you suggested (looks like it may have been moved in the past).
The bank reset circuit in the schematic above is identical to the one in Flipper Clown. Thanks for posting.
How do you post the full length schematic?

#17 6 years ago

Currieddog
To answer your question above, there is no issue with 'specials' adding more than one ball at a time when an addition ball is suppose to be added.

#18 6 years ago
Quoted from Steve_B:

I'll try adjusting the reset bar as you suggested

Yes, these are the plates that I meant.
Backing off those plate will actually give it a longer throw, but to be truthful,
not really enough to make much difference on the Armature switches, although
for me it had made a difference with the switches in the bank relays themselves.
It makes the contacts a little more closed when the relays are energized..
It seems that the Bank Reset coil isn't fully energizing. When I have this problem it's
usually the rivots in the 4th step up on the BCU's wiper board, and I filled with solder
and then formed by filling.
I'm sure you filed the Armature switch (probably more than once). Is the Bank Reset
bar moving nice and freely?
Just this past week I noticed the bat on a Williams P&B was fairly week. So I only
cleaned the Bat's coil plunger, and it made a good size improvement (could now make
Home Runs). Had you possible already takin' the plunger out of the Reset Coil and
cleaned both it and the coil sleeve? For the sleeve, I like to use Lemon Pledge on a
Q Tip..

#19 6 years ago

Thinking the problem is more of an electrical than mechanical problem,
as I'm sure you do, more than once I had to change the snow show blade
on the BCU's wiper because it was shorter from wear, thus not making as
good of contact as it should have been. The rounded edge becomes a
straight edge. You probably already had checked that, but thought I'd mention
it..

#20 6 years ago

Mopar, thanks for the suggestions. 4-9 rivets on BCU are clean and with no grooves. Wipers are clean and have good spring tension. Armature switch has been cleaned and gapped several times, but I'll give it another look today. Bank reset bar is moving freely and has a new return spring. Bank coil has a new coil sleeve, clean plunger, and isn't sticking. Relays in bank have good spring tension. Confirmed continuity from BCU 4-9 rivets, through bank reset switch on BCU, to bank coil with jumpers.
Going to focus on the S-armature again today.

#21 6 years ago

Do you have a motor 1C (or similar) that resets D? And how are your solders? My Flipper Parade has had an ASTOUNDING number of bad solders that needed to be redone. Give those wires a good yank.

#22 6 years ago

Yes, good point on checking the solder tabs.
Also, when you say the BCU's rivets, I'm sure you also
mean that the base of the snow shoe blades show little if
any signs of wear..
Just this past fall, I had to change the blade on that wiper
that completes the circuit to the BCU's step up coil for a
Fun Park..

#23 6 years ago
Quoted from Mopar:

BCU's step up coil

I meant to so the "Bank Reset Coil".

#24 6 years ago

Funny that you mention bad solder joints. As I checked for shorts or bent switch tabs I had several wires come off switch tabs in multiple locations during this restoration.

#25 6 years ago

I've had to re-do about 16 min. on FP. Unreal

#26 6 years ago

Going back to the S-Armature adjustment fixed the restart issue as Mopar initially suggested. As most who have tried adjusting this switch know, it is not the easiest switch to get right without a lot of trial and error.

What I finally did was to attach my digital meter leads to the S-Armature switch tabs and look for continuity. With the reset bank frame closed I could manually trip the S relay to see if the S armature switch changed state. If adjustment was needed I would open the relay bank frame, adjust the switch, close the frame and again check continuity. Using my meter and manually tripping and resetting the S relay with the frame closed made checking the S armature switch gap easier.

Finally got both the T and S armature switches properly adjusted. Game now resets correctly stopping at ball 5. Hope this is the last chapter on this restoration. Thanks for all the suggestions.

#27 6 years ago

Good going! Please check as "resolved."

#28 6 years ago

Glad to hear you have the issue sorted out..
Those Armature switches can be tricky. When I
have the bottom board out, I always make sure
I check, recheck, and triple check those switches..
I plan on one day having my Flipper Clown back
on its feet..

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