(Topic ID: 235269)

GTB Bronco ball advance and start problem.

By Vintage-Pinball

5 years ago


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#1 5 years ago

I've posted before on this machine but as other work got in the way, today is the first day I've had to work on it again.

I have 2 main problems on it now. I dont have a schematic but do have the operating manual. In that, it states that the V relay pulls via 2b and activates the S relay (as per my previous post-I cannot see that relay Howard mentioned either)
I dont have a V relay on this machine as it's a French model ( presumably) and, see attached image, instead has a DY relay instead?

Anyway, neither the coin switch on the front door or the start button doesn't work to fire the game, either with credits or on freeplay, or both. It will,however, allow 1 to 4 players when pressing the start button.

If I press the S relay, the AX does not pull in. To make the game reset completely, I have to both press S and U relay. All 4 player scores reset to zero correctly and goes to player 1, ball 1 and the game will play but only on ball1, which shows up my 2nd problem because I can play the ball fine but once drained, it wont advance to ball 2.

I have looked over the player unit. It is set up as per my SO76 so I think I can safely rule that out. If I manually advance it, all players will operate correctly right through all 3 balls but does not go to game over state even if I put the ball in the trough.

I have looked at the motor and relay switches as detailed in the manual( see image) twice, but all are clean and I'm pretty sure are gapped correctly; the pulse that should advance the player unit isn't there!

Any thoughts welcome!
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#2 5 years ago
Quoted from Vintage-Pinball:

the game will play but only on ball1, which shows up my 2nd problem because I can play the ball fine but once drained, it wont advance to ball 2

Does the Add Player Unit (P) relay activate when this happens? P should be activated by the Trough switch (different from the Ball Return switch)

#3 5 years ago

Thanks for replying, Howard.
When the ball drains, O relay fires, then the P relay fires too as serves the ball but stays on ball one. Ball one lamp goes out as the motor turns then lights again once the motor stops.

#4 5 years ago

If the Add Player Unit solenoid doesn't fire when the P relay does, Inspect and diagnose this circuit with Alligator clip jumper wires
http://www.planetimming.com/Pinball/troubleshooting/EM%20Troubleshooting.pdf
http://www.pinrepair.com/em/index3.htm#features

#5 5 years ago

Ok, thanks Howard.

I'm home today so shall try this out and report my findings.

#6 5 years ago

Ok. I've gone through the circuit with a jumper and discovered that the switch on the WB to BWR on the U relay had a poor gap so it will advance correctly at long last.
But, if I select only 1 player, ball 1 when drains, goes to ball 1, player 2, right up to player 4. Selecting 2 players does the same too,though if I select 4 players, everything runs ok through all balls played.

I've noticed too that when it does this and goes to game over, it seems to be counting down so that only player 4 on the 'players 1234 can play' remains lit when previously all 4 had been selected. Maybe it's supposed to do that?

And I found why it wouldn't start a game via the start button, I had a broken wire on z1, see picture!

Progressing well, now I can see a bit of light at the end of the tunnel!

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#7 5 years ago
Quoted from Vintage-Pinball:

if I select only 1 player, ball 1 when drains, goes to ball 1, player 2, right up to player 4

On a 1 player game, the Player unit should advance 4 times on each ball drain. If it doesn't check the part of the circuit at the bottom of my picture in my post #4 that goes through the Coin unit wiper and Player unit switches. Let me know if that isn't clear enough and I'll draw a red circle around the relevant switches.

#8 5 years ago

Hi Classicpinballs
In post-6 You write "But, if I select only one player, ball 1 when drains, goes to ball 1, player 2, right up to player 4." There is a lot of room for interpretation - what exactly happens ?

Interpretation-A: In a One-Player-Game it always happens: Player-1-Ball-1 drains, Bonus-Ladder is counted down, Ball is kicked over to the Shooter-Alley and the pin / player-unit steps to Player-2-Ball-1 --- Player-2 plays Ball-1 - ball drains, Bonus-Ladder is counted down, Ball is kicked over to the Shooter-Alley and the pin / player-unit steps to Player-3-Ball-1 --- Player-3 plays Ball-1 - ball drains, Bonus-Ladder is counted down, Ball is kicked over to the Shooter-Alley and the pin / player-unit steps to Player-4-Ball-1 --- Player-4 plays Ball-1 - ball drains, Bonus-Ladder is counted down, Ball is kicked over to the Shooter-Alley and the pin / player-unit steps to Player-1-Ball-2 etc.

Interpretation-B: In a One-Player-Game it always happens: Player-1-Ball-1 drains, Bonus-Ladder is counted down, Ball is kicked over to the Shooter-Alley and the pin / player-unit steps to Player-2-Ball-1 and directly steps to Player-3-Ball-1 and directly steps to Player-4-Ball-1 and the pin comes to an halt so Player-4 laaunches the ball - plays the ball, looses the ball and then ...

What exactly happens ? Greetings Rolf

#9 5 years ago

Thanks Howard and Rolf.

I'm working today but shall check tomorrow, Wednesday, and let you know how I get on.

#10 5 years ago

Hi, Rolf. I'm just going through both your questions and Howard's suggestions.

What is happening is that if I select 1 player only, ball 1 is served ok and scores. When it drains, whatever bonus score is added and the it goes to player 2, ball 2. Playing that ball will score and add any bonus too. That will go right through all 4 players ( only player 1 is lit remember) to game over. I have just noticed that it wont always, only sometimes, go to game over though that's probably an unrelated adjustment at present.

If I select 1, 2 or 3 players, i get the same result. But, if all 4 players are selected, it plays perfectly.

I have just compared y coin unit to that on Clay's guide and at reset, the disc and wipers on the coin unit are the same as his image and both switches open on it in 4 player mode.

I'll go now and check the circuit via Howard's image and let you know how I get on.

#11 5 years ago

Hi Classicpinballs
look here https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/player-unit-gottlieb-4-player-game-royal-flush#post-4354196 on the bottom of the JPG - left to right is what we see when we stand behind the pin and look into the Backbox, look at the player-unit, look along the axis of the player-unit --- a steel ratchet - four milky-white cams, a black cam. Lok at the switchstack actuated by the tooth (teeth) of the fourth / last white cam - probably the outmost switch on the switchstack - is this switch faulty always closed ? In the schematics this switch is called "P4G" and has wire-color-white-orange and has wire-color-blue-white soldered on --- shown in the schematics at "16-F" --- this switch is allowed to be closed ONLY when the switchstack is actuated. Greetings Rolf

#12 5 years ago

I've re-checked it again but it's no different. But, I have noticed that if I compare the player unit in Bronco's head to that in Spirit of 76, the latter advances just once each time the ball is served whereas on Bronco, it's going as per the pulses via the motor. This seems to make sense in that motor switch 1A pulses just the same as the player unit is advancing. I've tried adjusting the switches on P too but that is staying locked in as the motor turns. To my mind, P should just go on the one motor pulse? If I short the blue/white and yellow switch on P, the player unit advances the once which presumably would be correct?

Any thoughts or have I missed the obvious?

#13 5 years ago
Quoted from rolf_martin_062:

Hi Classicpinballs
look here https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/player-unit-gottlieb-4-player-game-royal-flush#post-4354196 on the bottom of the JPG - left to right is what we see when we stand behind the pin and look into the Backbox, look at the player-unit, look along the axis of the player-unit --- a steel ratchet - four milky-white cams, a black cam. Lok at the switchstack actuated by the tooth (teeth) of the fourth / last white cam - probably the outmost switch on the switchstack - is this switch faulty always closed ? In the schematics this switch is called "P4G" and has wire-color-white-orange and has wire-color-blue-white soldered on --- shown in the schematics at "16-F" --- this switch is allowed to be closed ONLY when the switchstack is actuated. Greetings Rolf

Sorry Rolf, I've just seen this after I posted the above! I'll check it but, I am now going out and will be out probably all tomorrow at work so it might be Friday before I can look at your idea. I have not touched any of the switches on that unit, only cleaned the rivets on the disk and didn't dismantle either though I have compared the wipers on it and they match my Spirit of 76 - which is working fine so I know that at least is correct! Thanks for your help and I'll let you know asap.

P.s from looking at your link, I can confirm that when in player 1, ball 1, the black cam, closest to the backglass, is correct. I know this because it is the same on so76 and the image on Clay's site. As said, nothing else on the unit has been touched so perhaps my fault is somewhere in it!

#14 5 years ago

Howard/Rolf.

I've fixed it! Jumpering through everything again didn't show a fault on the circuit so it had to be mechanical and when I compared the player unit on so76 to Bronco, I found the top switch on one player had too small a gap so it was effectively staying closed all the time. Opening and cleaning it means it now plays 3 balls per player correctly.

One small fault remains though in that player 3, ball 3, when drains isnt going to game over. But I'll look closely at that stack in case theres an issue still there.

Thanks for the help again gents

#15 5 years ago
Quoted from Vintage-Pinball:

player 3, ball 3, when drains isnt going to game over.

As part of the Match circuit, the Coin Unit should step down to 0 at the end of a game. If it doesn't Inspect and diagnose this circuit with Alligator clip jumper wires
http://www.planetimming.com/Pinball/troubleshooting/EM%20Troubleshooting.pdf
http://www.pinrepair.com/em/index3.htm#features

Pinball (resized).pngPinball (resized).png
#16 5 years ago

It does step down correctly and I looked through that circuit but all seems fine.
What it is doing is this:
Player one only, goes to game over lit, backglass player no.4 lit on backglass and player reel window 1 and 4 are lit.
Players 1 and 2, as above but player reel windows 2 and 4 are lit
Players 1,2 and 3 does not go to game over, returns the ball ( game is still able to play) backglass players show 1 and 4 lit instead of just 3, player reel windows 1 only is lit
Players 1 through 4 as per players 1 and 2, all 4 player windows lit on game over, with game over lit.

Visually looking at the player unit, all seems the same on each switch stack with player 3 contacts the same as the other when stack it raised or lowered as per the cam step up segment.

And, it's not giving its match feature either!

Two last remaining faults on a machine that has certainly had plenty of issues! Any thoughts welcome

#17 5 years ago

If the Game Over (Q) relay doesn't activate when the Coin Unit steps down to 0, Inspect and diagnose this circuit with Alligator clip jumper wires
http://www.planetimming.com/Pinball/troubleshooting/EM%20Troubleshooting.pdf
http://www.pinrepair.com/em/index3.htm#features

Pinball (resized).pngPinball (resized).png
#18 5 years ago

Well, I've tried jumpering as per that circuit but so far to no avail. Going from the motor switches which are clean and gapped ok, their contacts are open as per the schematic and I cannot get game over unless I put a jumper on the 0 contact on the coin unit when at zero. I have continuity from the motor switch maroon wire up to the bx relay in case there was a break but that's good. And all the snowshoes on the coin unit are good and have continuity throughout.

If I play any other combo, it will step back to zero and game over as it should. Have I missed something do you think or do I start again!

#19 5 years ago

Hi Classicpinballs
play a ONE-Player-Game and when You are in "Ball-3": Lift the playfield and look at the standalone-Interlock-Relay "BX-Relay" - manipulate on the playfield "last ball is lost" - watch the Bx-Relay - see it actuate ? - then comes Game-Over.
Then play a THREE-Player-Game --- on Player-3-Ball-3 lift the playfield .... (do You see the BX-Relay actuate ?) Greetings Rolf

0Bronco-Work-06 (resized).jpg0Bronco-Work-06 (resized).jpg
#20 5 years ago

Thanks for this thought Rolf.

I'll try it later today and let you know how I get on.

#21 5 years ago

Hi, Rolf.
I've just tried your suggestion (sorry for the delay but work has got in the way of things)
So, in 1 player mode, if I simulate the ball drain, the Bx pulls in, coin unit steps back to its last stop and goes to game over.

For the same for player 3, the Bx pulls in and the coin unit returns to its last stop, Bx releases but no game over( ignore the O relay firing as that is because I still had my finger on the trough return switch)

I have attached a brief video of what its doing which might help pinpoint the problem, here:

Thanks

#22 5 years ago

Hi Classicpinballs
something strange in Your post-21: "three-player-game, last ball - BX-Relay pulls-in ... BX-Relay releases". The BX-Relay is of type "Interlock-Relay" - it has a "Pull-in-Coil" and an "Pull-Out-Coil" - actually called "Last Ball Relay (BX)" and "BX Relay Reset (BXR)". So probably the BXR faulty pulls --- please look up (three-player-game) - do You see the BXR-Coil pulling in the end ?
Does the BXR pulls at the end of a One-Player-Game (and You just have forgot to mention ?) ?
Look at the JPG here https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/player-unit-gottlieb-4-player-game-royal-flush#post-4842927 --- look on the switchstack on the black / fifth cam, bottom switch - truely open when the one and only tooth on the cam does NOT actuate the switchstack ?
it is getting late for me - in about an hour I will go to sleep. Greetings Rolf

#23 5 years ago

Hi, Rolf.

Success! The player unit was all correct so I took another look at the BX interlock relay. On a closer examination, I noticed that it had a thicker, stronger, spring on the top armature.

This meant that it didn't allow the unit to operate properly to allow the armature not being able to pull completely to then go to game over. Why it only seemed to be faulty on player 3 still mystifies me, it now works since I fitted a correct rated spring so I'm happy with the result.

I have one more problem with it which I shall post as a new topic. Thank you Rolf and Howard for your help with this.

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