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(Topic ID: 161399)

Gtb Big Brave "O" relay not releasing


By njPinWiz

4 years ago



Topic Stats

  • 26 posts
  • 4 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 4 years ago by njPinWiz
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zBig-Brave-Work4_(resized).jpg
BB_start_up_sequence.pdf (PDF preview)
DSCN6304_(resized).JPG
DSCN6303_(resized).JPG
zBig-Brave-Work3_(resized).jpg
zBig-Brave-Work2_(resized).jpg

#1 4 years ago

Machine turns on fine, credit button sets of relay sequence. "O" relay pulls in but doesn't release. Ball in drain hole does not kick out because "O" coil not being energized. Anyone have any suggestions?

#2 4 years ago

Hi njPinWiz
Gottlieb says "Ball Return (Coil)" to Your "O-Coil". I show a snippet of schema: Some switches on some Relays and Score-Motor-Switch-4C to check ... Greetings Rolf

zBig-Brave-Work2_(resized).jpg

#3 4 years ago
Quoted from njPinWiz:

Machine turns on fine, credit button sets of relay sequence. "O" relay pulls in but doesn't release. Ball in drain hole does not kick out because "O" coil not being energized. Anyone have any suggestions?

You said the O relay is pulling in, but also said the O relay coil is not being energized.

I'm officially confused. If the O relay is pulling in, do you mean the ball return coil isn't pulling in?

My confused guess is that your score motor switch at 4C is not making. That's a pretty common problem when you are not getting a ball return coil activation. You've also got to check the NC XB switch and the make/break on the P relay. But I'm guessing score motor switch.

#4 4 years ago

Thanks guys. EMsInKC let me clarify - the "O" relay on the relay board does pull in. The score motor turns to reset the game, but there is no current being passed thru 4c up to the "O" coil (under play field in out-hole), so the solenoid is not activating the kick-out mechanism.

As Rolf mentions, have been looking at XB, P and O relays - they all seem clean, gapped properly, etc. Will take a closer look.

#5 4 years ago

Have you made sure the kickout coil is good?

Fair warning, EMs are infamous for switches that "look" good but really aren't. Jumper them to be sure.

#6 4 years ago

kickout coil is good, I can energize it manually.

#7 4 years ago
Quoted from njPinWiz:

kickout coil is good, I can energize it manually.

LOL, we certainly aren't talking the same language. Exactly what does "energize it manually" mean?

#8 4 years ago
Quoted from EMsInKC:

LOL, we certainly aren't talking the same language. Exactly what does "energize it manually" mean?

A gentle stroke, and soft words spoken onto its ear...

#9 4 years ago

Hi njPinWiz
(Post-6) "Ball Return (Coil)" is good. I enriched my JPG --- WARNING: NEVER clip-on a Jumper-Wire at transformer-POWER-Lug-wire-color-RED !!! Also, NEVER clip-on a Jumper-Wire at "10-Amp-Fuse-Holder-Side-Wire-color-RED !!! You MUST have the fuse in every circuit !!!

Jumpering "1": Toggle-off the pin -> clip-on Jumper-Wire at "10 Amp-FuseHolder-Side-Wire-Red-Black" - ATTENTION - once toggled-on: POWER is in the Jumper-Wire. Lay the other end of the Jumper-Wire "free / not touching anything". Toggle-on -> start a game -> pin comes to idle -> take the Jumper-Wire (grab the insulated wire !!!) -> tip on "Ball-Return-Coil-side-wire-color-Brown-Red" -> Coil should fire. If "not firing": We must look at the other connection back to transformer-Black.

Coil does fire -> toggle-off -> Jumpering "2"-> clip-on Jumper-Wire at "XB-Relay-Switch-blade-wire-Red-White". Lay the other end of the Jumper-Wire "free / not touching anything". Toggle-on -> start a game -> pin comes to idle -> take the Jumper-Wire (grab the insulated wire !!!) -> tip on "Ball-Return-Coil-side-wire-color-Brown-Red" -> Coil should fire. If "not firing": Fault is in the wiring "Fuse switch on XB-Relay".

Coil does fire -> toggle-off -> Jumpering "3"-> clip-on Jumper-Wire at "XB-Relay-Switch-blade-wire-Brown-mingled-with-Red". Lay the other end of the Jumper-Wire "free / not touching anything". Toggle-on -> start a game -> pin comes to idle -> take the Jumper-Wire (grab the insulated wire !!!) -> tip on "Ball-Return-Coil-side-wire-color-Brown-Red" -> Coil should fire. If "not firing": Fault is in "Switch on XB-Relay" (or XB-Rely is faulty-pulling).

Coil does fire -> toggle-off -> Jumpering "4"-> clip-on Jumper-Wire at "middle-blade of the Make-and-Brake-Switch on P-Relay where wire-color-Orange-mingled-with-Red is soldered-on". Lay the other end of the Jumper-Wire "free / not touching anything". Toggle-on -> start a game -> pin comes to idle -> MAKE some points on the playfield -> NOW clip-on the other end of Jumper-Wire at Ball-Return-Coil -> let the ball drain -> Score-Motor will turn, Outhole-Relay will be actuated -> question: Does Ball-Return-Coil fires ? If "No": Fault is in Score-Motor-Switch-4C.

Coil does fire -> toggle-off -> Jumpering "5" ... Jumpering "6" the same way You did Jumpering "4". Greetings Rolf

zBig-Brave-Work3_(resized).jpg

#10 4 years ago
Quoted from EMsInKC:

LOL, we certainly aren't talking the same language. Exactly what does "energize it manually" mean?

I might be using the wrong terminology, but what I meant to say is that I can get the ball return coil to trigger by closing the 4c relay on score motor...was testing it "manually" to make sure current was being passed & it functioned mechanically.

#11 4 years ago

Rolf, thanks - will need to digest what you suggest. I was able to jump the circuit to verify that the ball return coil fires and the ball is kicked-out to the shooter lane.

#12 4 years ago

Rolf, I did those jumps that you suggested. And, they all fire the ball return coil/plunger. Why the entire circuit upon pressing credit button doesn't fire the ball return coil is perplexing.

#13 4 years ago

Another thought: upon pressing credit button, it takes 7 score motor "cycles" to reset. My 4 other Gottlieb 1-player EMs only take 2 to 5 "cycles" to reset. Obviously Big Brave is a 2 player game and might be different but it seems to take much longer to reset everything. Any thoughts on whether this is impacting the ball-return problem?

#14 4 years ago

OK, so if 4C will fire the outhole coil when you manually close it, then XB is closed, then P is closed and the switch on the O relay is also closed. That tells me that 4C is the problem when the motor is running-it's not making.

Multiplayers will take more cycles to reset than a single player.

#15 4 years ago

Thanks EMsInKC, I absolutely agree that 4c is the problem area. What is baffling is that I filed down those contacts and cleaned that switch several times. It makes good contact as the score motor cycles...in rotating the score motor cam by hand with machine off, everything looks aligned, making contacting well, opening/closing as it should. I can't think of anything else to try...running out of ideas, lol.

I do also understand your point about multi-player EMs - I don't think that has anything to do with the problem I am experiencing.

#16 4 years ago

You're sure you're looking at the right switch on 4C? I have to ask.

If it works when you manually close the motor switch, then all the other switches have to be good. Something on that switch isn't right.

#17 4 years ago

Looking from left to right, it's the 3rd one across...shown open in first photoDSCN6303_(resized).JPG

closed in second DSCN6304_(resized).JPG

#18 4 years ago

Am still having issue with start up. Everything resets on pin when credit button is pressed, except the "ball return" doesn't fire & send the ball to shooter lane. Attached is the start up sequence.

Any thoughts? Rolf? EMsinKC?

Thanks.

BB_start_up_sequence.pdf

#19 4 years ago

If the O relay is energizing, there's absolutely no reason why the outhole coil won't engage, assuming all the other switches are correct, and assuming the outhole coil is good. The trip bank is resetting? If that isn't happening then again it points to 4C.

If everything else on the startup sequence is happening, then I'm stumped. TimMe is the guy who can solve this, or Dirt Flipper, but he's on leave. You might PM Tim and see if he can solve your issue. I can't think of anything else here.

#20 4 years ago

I am likewise perplexed EMsInKC...O relay pulls in as it should on starting a new game but seems to release to open position just after the score motor stops turning. In other words, as the score motor turns to reset everything (score reels, reset bar, drop target reset, etc.) it seems like the 4C switch opens just before "O" relay pulls in again.

I tested each component of the circuit and they all test good. Scratching my head as to why the entire circuit up to out-hole coil does not...

#21 4 years ago
Quoted from njPinWiz:

I am likewise perplexed EMsInKC...O relay pulls in as it should on starting a new game but seems to release to open position just after the score motor stops turning. In other words, as the score motor turns to reset everything (score reels, reset bar, drop target reset, etc.) it seems like the 4C switch opens just before "O" relay pulls in again.
I tested each component of the circuit and they all test good. Scratching my head as to why the entire circuit up to out-hole coil does not...

Have you actually watched the score motor and seen the state of 4C when the O relay pulls in?

#22 4 years ago

Hi njPinWiz +
the Instruction sheet (post-18) does not mention - in the schema (look at my my snippet) -> see "encircled orange" a "+/- Self-Hold-Switch on O-Relay" --- does this switch securely closes ? (switch clean, closing, wires soldered-on ?)

SCM-1C opens quite early (see Motor Switch Chart) - O-Relay must stay pulled (Self-Hold-Switch) so SCM-4C (closing late) can actuate Ball-Return-Coil. Greetings Rolf

#23 4 years ago

Hi
and the snippet / JPG ...

zBig-Brave-Work4_(resized).jpg

#24 4 years ago

PROBLEM RESOLVED!! A big thanks to the Pinside community for all your suggestions. It was indeed the "O" and "P" relays that were the source of the problem. It took quite a bit of finesse setting of the switches in each of those relays to finally get it tuned correctly. Just finished up playing a bunch of games to test the game & it's now working 100%. Appreciate everyone's comments. The suggestions, diagrams & comments helped me tremendously in better understanding Gottlieb EMs and the tricky nature of each & every switch!

#25 4 years ago

I'm still trying to figure how in the world the O and P relays were the problem when you said if you manually closed 4C that the outhole coil fired. That's just bizarre. But that's also Gottlieb. Those small relay switches are extremely finicky.

#26 4 years ago

EMsInKC, I believe the problem was not so much the relays themselves, but with my trying to adjust each and every switch on both O and P. I think I had several of them a bit too "open", so they weren't closing tightly & properly at the right time. Once I tightened up all the gaps on each (so that the blades were almost touching but still sightly open), that resolved the problem. I learned what you already mentioned, that the Gottlieb relay switches are small & very finicky.

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