(Topic ID: 149800)

GTB 300 Won't eject ball to shooter lane/bonus issues

By shimoda

8 years ago


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  • Latest reply 8 years ago by slgerber
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#1 8 years ago

Picked up a decent 300 this past weekend. Overall the game looks good but has a couple significant issues.

On starting up, reels clear and all but the ball won't eject. The O relay never engages. Followed steps in another thread (https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/gottlieb-em-repair-help-ball-wont-eject#post-515142) and have verified that the coil for O is good but the instructions for the switch on the O relay to test, couldn't find wires of the colors mentioned for Royal Flush, not sure if they should be the same or different. I do have the manual and schematics with the 300. So I have verified that both the outhole kicker and O relay coils work. When I manually hold in the O relay the sequence activates the ball return coil like it should.

Other issue is that sometimes in bonus collect (saucer) the game will just start kicking bonis balls and not stop.

Now, a couple things about this game. Clearly at some point some wiring work was done. It all looks clean, but there are lots of wires that appear to have been added or replaced. Many of the relays have wires going to one of the relay coil lugs from, usually, a bottom switch on said relay's stack (NO but so that it will activate). These seem like they would be the switch for each relay to stay closed but strange they would be wired in newer wire than the original game wiring.

First I need to figure out why the O relay isn't ever activated. Tried checking switches on Q but they seem to work. AX relay had a wiring fix/change as well where one wire is strung between three different switch levels on that relay. A wiring diagram would possibly be handy here since really reading the colors on dirtier old wiring isn't always easy.

Ideas? One thing I can't make out is which stack on O would be the O switch.

#2 8 years ago

To elaborate on the wiring I mentioned:

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In each you can see that some newer wires were soldered on, I assume to replace ones but who knows. If I assume the wiring was correct I still can't find what is keeping O from engaging and staying engaged (it does neither).

#3 8 years ago
Quoted from shimoda:

Clearly at some point some wiring work was done. It all looks clean, but there are lots of wires that appear to have been added or replaced. Many of the relays have wires going to one of the relay coil lugs from, usually, a bottom switch on said relay's stack (NO but so that it will activate). These seem like they would be the switch for each relay to stay closed but strange they would be wired in newer wire than the original game wiring.

Those are factory blue jumper wires. Normal (and old, not new).

On the relays, those are used for the lock-in path. On the score motor, they're used as just bridge wires. The other wire is the score motor service plug.

#4 8 years ago

Now, the path to the 'O' relay is a horrible one. There are no less then ten switches that all need to be closed in order to complete the path and energize it (well, eleven if the Bounce switch is included, but that switch is common to all the 25V circuit).

Anyway, here's the path to activate it:
Gottlieb 300 Ball ReturnGottlieb 300 Ball Return

All of those switches along the highlighted path need to be closed before the 'O' relay will energize. Note that all of them except for the ball return (outhole) switch are normally closed.

Once the 'O' relay energizes, then it locks on via its own switch (the one where one of those blue jumper wires is attached), using most of the same path, except it goes back through the 'O' switch segment (not highlighted).

So check each of those switches along the path (clean, gapped).

If that doesn't find it, then you can always use a jumper wire to bypass segments until 'O' energizes, and narrow down where the open is.

#5 8 years ago

O relay doesn't have a blue jumper on it like the rest.

#6 8 years ago
Quoted from shimoda:

O relay doesn't have a blue jumper on it like the rest.

What's it have then?

#7 8 years ago

Don't know, but I don't see a hold switch wired for O which is strange considering one is listed on the schematic. I figured that was one of the NO switches, but with it being that jumper on almost every other one... Wondering if something happened there? I've checked most of the rest of that path a few days ago but having some trouble figuring out which switch on each stack is the one I need. Too bad GTB didn't also have wiring diagrams to label the switch stacks along with the schematics.

I'm quite impressed by what was done with nothing more than switches and relays but figuring out the paths is tricky this way. I've got a Bally Wiggler also with a few issues but I plan on sticking it out and getting both of these 100%.

#8 8 years ago

It's going to be a switch with Blue-Black on one wire and Maroon-Green on the other. The Blue-Black is probably the easier to spot, since it will be a dark color. It's usually a switch near the bottom of the switch stack (so closer to the coil). Does it look like there's a wire missing from a lug on the coil?

A picture of your 'O' relay might be helpful.

If you manually press in the 'O' relay, does it energize and lock on? If not, then the issue may just be that the jumper wire is missing.

#9 8 years ago

If I press O in it energizes the ball return kicker but not it does not energize the O coil itself and hold it in. I'll look for the BlueBlack/MrGn in a bit when I'm at the machine and get back with updates and a better pic of the O coil but I don't recall it appearing to be missing any wires (or have that appearance.)

#10 8 years ago
Quoted from shimoda:

If I press O in it energizes the ball return kicker but not it does not energize the O coil itself and hold it in. I'll look for the BlueBlack/MrGn in a bit when I'm at the machine and get back with updates and a better pic of the O coil but I don't recall it appearing to be missing any wires (or have that appearance.)

If 'O' itself isn't energizing and locking on, then I'd guess that the jumper wire is missing on it (to tie the 'O' lock-in switch to the coil).

#11 8 years ago

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Definitely does not latch O when manually activated and nothing else seems to activate O.

#12 8 years ago

Nope, doesn't look like it had a jumper wire. And spot checking a few different 'O' relays on other games, they don't have one either (I think because the 'O' relay is at the beginning of that wiring sequence, so the daisy chain in the wiring just goes through the switch).

The lock in switch seems to be the left side, on the bottom.

But if the relay never activates, and it doesn't grab and hold when manually pressed, then that suggests the open in the circuit is common to both the activation and the hold paths. So that narrows the list a bit to the switches on E, K, AX, Q, motor 2B and the Anti-cheat, since all those are shared to both activate and lock on 'O'.

If you know the coil is able to work (perhaps by running a jumper wire to it and see that it energizes), then the problem lies along the path through those six switches somewhere. Dirty contact, slightly open switch, cold solder joint with a wire popped off - any of those would prevent it from working.

#13 8 years ago

Sorry Shimoda some how I missed this thread (FYI Dirtflipper I sold him this pin both knowing it had this issue)
I read through and wanted to say I never removed a jumper on O relay so I'm glad it was confirmed that the jumper isn't supposed to be there.
I will preface that if I really had a clue how to fix it I would have done so but when I saw the diagram and see the reference to the AX relay I get a strong gut reaction that it is involved. When I was working to solve the original issue (mystery bonus running non-stop) I was working in the relays and knocked the plastic switch matrix off the AX relay and had to reset and adjust the switches ... totally possible that I didn't get something quite right. May not pan out but that is my .005 cent worth

#14 8 years ago
Quoted from pinworthy:

Sorry Shimoda some how I missed this thread (FYI Dirtflipper I sold him this pin both knowing it had this issue)
I read through and wanted to say I never removed a jumper on O relay so I'm glad it was confirmed that the jumper isn't supposed to be there.
I will preface that if I really had a clue how to fix it I would have done so but when I saw the diagram and see the reference to the AX relay I get a strong gut reaction that it is involved. When I was working to solve the original issue (mystery bonus running non-stop) I was working in the relays and knocked the plastic switch matrix off the AX relay and had to reset and adjust the switches ... totally possible that I didn't get something quite right. May not pan out but that is my .005 cent worth

I did the same thing with the AX relay! I don't think that is it though as I checked the positions of everything and they 'look' correct. I knew there would be some issues but I've been wanting to learn how to work through EM issues so these aren't problems for me that I can't solve, just excited to get to playing. BTW, first thing I did when I got home to set it up was to pull all those decals. Even worn out I like the looks better

I'll probably handmake stencils to redo the cabinet.

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#15 8 years ago
Quoted from DirtFlipper:

Nope, doesn't look like it had a jumper wire. And spot checking a few different 'O' relays on other games, they don't have one either (I think because the 'O' relay is at the beginning of that wiring sequence, so the daisy chain in the wiring just goes through the switch).
The lock in switch seems to be the left side, on the bottom.
But if the relay never activates, and it doesn't grab and hold when manually pressed, then that suggests the open in the circuit is common to both the activation and the hold paths. So that narrows the list a bit to the switches on E, K, AX, Q, motor 2B and the Anti-cheat, since all those are shared to both activate and lock on 'O'.
If you know the coil is able to work (perhaps by running a jumper wire to it and see that it energizes), then the problem lies along the path through those six switches somewhere. Dirty contact, slightly open switch, cold solder joint with a wire popped off - any of those would prevent it from working.

Thanks for looking at some other games. I'll narrow the search tonight.

#16 8 years ago

I may add, check the switches with a DMM not just visually. I learned this the hard way with my Top Score add bonus relay. It looked closed and was but until I took it apart and filed the contacts ( I had tried in the machine but didn't work) it was not working most of the time.

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