(Topic ID: 107625)

Growing a league in a large city, with no locations

By swampfire

9 years ago


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    #85 9 years ago

    I can't believe I missed this thread before. I love to see all the excitement about leagues!

    Quoted from snyper2099:

    I realize this. The only criticism I really have is the "swiss style" re-seeding after each session. It is more important that the players in our league play everyone at least once. Using the FSPA system, I don't see how that is possible.

    FSPA system isn't really "Swiss style", at least not how I understand that term. FSPA rules don't rank players by either their season total of points nor by your prior meet's point total... rather, you simply move up a group if you win and move down a group if you lose. (Basically a bubble sort.) This prevents the wild swings you can get from the "rank by previous points" systems.

    Quoted from ryanwanger:

    I'd suggest that sticking to a hard and fast "everyone must play everyone" rule is really bad for:
    a) total newbies, who will now spend the *majority* of the season being beat down by better players instead of playing against similarly skilled opponents
    b) excellent players, who will now spend the majority of the season playing matches they have no chance of losing

    Disregard if your league is of players of mostly equal skill.

    This. Players with lesser skill (whether they're newbies or not) can get frustrated if they play a large number of games against players who completely dominate them, which may result in them just abandoning league play, which is no good. Expert players may be less likely to abandon league play, but they don't get much challenge or enjoyment out of stomping the low-end players.

    "Everyone must play everyone" also doesn't scale well. If you assume a typical 8-12 meet season (whether that's once per week for a ~3 month season, or once per month for an annual season), it breaks once your league gets larger than 30 or so players.

    One thing we keep in mind is that leagues provide a setting for social competition outside of official league play. So while we don't like the league's best and worst players grouped together battling for league points, we certainly encourage players to come to the location before league starts, and/or stay after league is over, and play for-fun games with others. That gives everyone the chance to socialize, and have the weaker players learn from the stronger ones, without messing up league points.

    Several people have mentioned the FSPA scoring software... it actually can run both FSPA and PPL formats now, and I'm adding support for several other league formats. Fully Web-based, so it's accessible from any device with Internet access. (New version of the software coming up also adds HTTP/JSON API support, since I've actually had a lot of requests from people wanting to build custom clients, do specialized analysis of data, etc.) If you're interested in trying out the system for your league, or just have questions about it, please don't hesitate to ping me.

    #93 9 years ago
    Quoted from jwilson:

    I know I was bummed to learn that five machines was no longer enough to host a league night. Used to be four was enough, now it's eight.

    But splitting wrecks the social aspect. Which makes me think limiting membership is better, to avoid that.

    Heck, three machines can run a league. Sure, there will be more waiting and people will get tired of playing the same machines over and over, vs a location with six or eight or twenty machines. But personally I'm OK with having people wait a bit rather than turn away people who want to play pinball! (If waiting is a problem, PAPA Classics should be cancelled forever.

    Quoted from snyper2099:

    This "handicapping" you describe is just a way of sugar-coating things in my opinion. I have always thought poorly of it. If you have someone that really wants to be a better pinball player, they will want a system that allows them to get better, while still being primarily a social endeavor. The system above allows players to just "limp along", in my opinion. Trust me, if players are primarily there for fun and to be social, they don't really care what system is being used.

    In the FSPA model, the winner of each group (except the very top) gets bumped up every week to face (theoretically) slightly better opponents. That slightly higher level of competition feels manageable to those players... they figure that if they repeat what they did the prior week, but just make a few more shots, they can beat these people. And sometimes they indeed do so, and move up again. The players who make the effort to improve themselves will do so, and work their way up the ladder. Other players might not choose to actively improve for whatever reason, but they may still enjoy a "fair fight" against similarly-skilled opponents.

    In practice, everyone does get better. I can tell you that the vast majority of our players, including lower division folks, have much stronger skills (both in techniques like catches and passes, and in final recorded machine score) than just a couple years ago.

    Quoted from snyper2099:

    Sorry for the long-windedness. This is but one opinion, and I very much like seeing how others handle their own leagues. I would not consider adapting/changing things in my group without a vote of some sort. I have learned from making that mistake. The majority rules in our league, and the majority has fun at every session. Most players find these "detail-league-type-things" fairly boring topics.

    Agreed across the board, including my own long-windedness. There is no single format that's perfect for everyone -- I always tell people who want to start new leagues to browse the Net looking at many different formats out there, and select one that works for them. The FSPA format tries really hard to balance "competitiveness" and "fun"... but if we're forced to bias one way or the other for a particular rule, we normally bias toward "competitiveness". My thinking behind this is simple: fun is easy, anyone who wants to play pinball for fun can text some buddies to meet up at a location, and play some games. But providing a formal competitive environment, with fair, thorough rules, is difficult -- and you're right, most people don't want to deal with that administrivia because it can be boring. That's exactly what the league system can provide for people who want it.

    #98 9 years ago

    For anyone who's reviewing league formats, I'd suggest this page as a quick guide to FSPA rules:

    http://www.fspazone.org/players_guide.html

    It's far from the full rulebook, but it's what we give players so they understand what's going on. Besides the grouping scheme, the way we assign points is interesting -- it awards losers who "keep it close" as well as winners who have dominating victories.

    #104 9 years ago
    Quoted from flynnibus:

    And let's put hard facts to it.. last full season I played we had 31 players in the league. I personally played against 8 different people in that league while having an average ladder rank of 1.83 - meaning by average I was #1 or #2 in the ladder over the length of the season... and in fact I only played outside of group #1 one time all season. Yet, I still played against more than 1/4 of all the players in the league... and I was the extreme low end case. Most on average played 11-12 different people...

    Actually there were 30 players who completed MMS Spring 2014, and on average, players directly competed against 13.33 opponents, or ~46% of all possible opponents. That seems to me like a pretty decent range of opponents... but I'm biased.

    #118 9 years ago
    Quoted from LOTR_breath:

    They even host our results and statistics website for free! (Thanks Joe!).

    While I did host all the league sites from my personal server for several years, these days we all have to extend thanks to PAPA and pair Networks for donating hosting services for the League Manager system.

    Lots of neat new stuff coming to the software for everyone's next season!

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