I've been reading that thread and it sucks for sure, but we also don't really know how widespread the problem is just yet. I hope this isn't GB all over again. All of the AS playfields seem to be really nice, not sure why they all can't be that way. My point was though that everyone talks about how high of quality JJP is but they have had lots of trouble in the past as well, and these DI playfields are chipping pretty bad so far looks like. Both companies need to get these playfield problems figured out because it F'ing sucks.

Lots of greed in this hobby. People misrepresenting games. Inside info on what's being released as a vault. etc., etc.

I have to disagree with this. Add-ons cost money and don't magically appear out of thin air. Ultimately it's up to the buyer to research what's on the game and determine if it's priced appropriately given what's been added to it. Think it costs too much? They can try to find one without the extras included.

For myself personally, mirror blades, side rails, LED smoothing boards, and some other add-ons are valuable to me and I take those into consideration when it comes to the price, particularly if they are games I think I will have for a while. What's the condition like overall and what does the machine usually go for in a clean/normal state? I think of that and then factor in what it will cost me to personally add the same add-ons myself. I am OK with springing extra to have that stuff already included, because in a lot of cases I am going to pay to have that stuff added anyway.

Touchy subject but this ole 62 year old man has to comment. I am selling many pins and games A.T.Moment. It pained me deeply to sell a few in the beginning at reasonable rates...well, what I thought was reasonable. I sold Gorgars, Flash's, 1950's Wurlitzers for 500-800 bucks to see them a week later for sale on Craigslist for 1500-2000 and being snapped up by buyers. I a quickly tired of the " flipper dipper" types that do this, "Quickly Tired!" This is why ya cannot find a decent priced vintage pin there anymore! I quickly tired of seeing foreign buyers outbid me at amusement auctions only to buy and ship thousands in containers overseas!.....My pins, most I have owned thirty years or more will reflect a huge increase now!!!! The ones I have left when dead will be donated to a museum. I will be #%&$$ if I sell another #$%$# a pinball so he can immediately flip it!!!!!

Also....I purchased at least 100 new pins in the late seventies. Pinball started dying, dying, dying, dead. Video was king, ya could get about 300-400 a pin on resell. I had to sell about half to survive. Sell I did! The other half I kept and stored!!!!!! Now....what is storage worth? Technically pins I paid 1800-2500 new should be worth more than that today but most are not! I can argue both sides here. I'll support the man that housed them like myself with paying a high price a hell of a lot quicker than a man that pleads to buy one at a flea market price with plans to flip and double his money! A whole lot of peeps capitalized on bankrupt arcade owners! Carpet baggas!

Ya it happens. Any sweet deal on Craigslist gets scooped up seconds after it's posted and then resold for more. Tough to find a good deal there without constant looking. But hey what can you do? Just post it for what you want for it and be happy when it's sold

I have no problem with selling a machine for what the market will support. As for Ebay, a lot of times I will be cleaning out the basement and stumble across some random collectable item. I check Ebay before I toss it into the trash and it has sold for X amount of dollars, you can bet that I will list my item at that price as well. Same with Pinball, if I check sold listings and two or three machines have sold for twice what I was going to ask, why wouldn't I price mine accordingly?

No problem there either...as long as the machines you are checking are in relatively the same condition. I see machines out there with wear down to the wood, with inflated prices not just hundreds, but thousands more - priced like restored or minty games.

I think the typical pinsiders undervalue pins...Just because you want to spend 10-15 hours shopping a routed game, does not mean that others do.

The usual buyer of a pin would want one that is fully shopped, and a shop job costs on average about $1500 from a Todd Tuckey or others in the area.

So that JP that pinside values as a 1800-2500 pin, is suddenly 3500-4k pin to an average buyer; you have to take that into account. Plus delivery, setup, warranty etc...That has value to an average buyer.

Couple that with supply and demand and voila, that's where we are right now.

I've struggled with pricing all the pins I have sold, and I've thought a lot about PinSide "average prices", eBay prices, and MPPG and here's what I've come up with.

1. Understanding the value of a machine

There are certain factors that determine value (in no particular order):

* Overall popularity of pin + supply/demand
* Popularity of theme/artwork
* Gameplay
* Rarity
* Condition (HUO, Routed, Restored, Shopped, etc)

Each of these categories are very subjective and if you look through PinSide, everyone has their differing opinions. When I go through these categories I ask myself questions that I believe a buyer would be interested in knowing.

2. Finding a value

Placing value is harder than the restore. I tend to think that "I'm too close" to a pin to accurately determine a value. I have some trusted friends that I bounce a number off prior to posting to make sure I'm in some sort of ball park.

For me, shopping / restoring isn't about making money or a profit on a pin. This isn't a job for me, but I understand that for some it's part of the livelihood (see Tuckey, Todd).

2. Where PinSide gets it wrong (aka why the average price isn't the end all / be all)

I love PinSide and I do like the average price system from an initial introduction to a pin that I may not know much about. However when I'm calculating a pin for value (whether buying or selling), the average price value is merely a starting point, not the conclusion. I dive deeper looking at the pins sold in the last 12-16 months, comparing value versus condition.

So, what does this all mean?

As with anything, there's large swaths of determining values for pins. It's important to understand actual cost of the pin per BOM versus the perceived value once completed. Currently PinSide lumps all the same titles into one default number, and I would hope that in thee future some thought would be given to expand pricing to show different tiers of condition based on price. Do you really think a HEP restored pin falls into the average price category?

Damn, my Pinside Bingo card that I posted was way too on the nose. This thread is becoming a parody of itself.

At the end of the day, the price that people buy and sell for is only the business of those two people. If somebody prices a pin for sale (high, low, or spot on) and somebody buys it, then the price was right for both parties. Nobody is forcing anybody to buy and sell. As Crazy Levi, Black Knight, and others always say, you got to do your research. Knowledge is power, and the converse is true as well.

If you sell something and the new buyer lists it for triple what you paid, why would you be mad? He is the new owner and has a right to do whatever he wishes with it. He can list it for a million dollars for throw it off a roof. Did he sign some kind of contract that said he could only sell for same price he bought it for? Also listing it does not mean he will sell it of course.

Now if the new seller SELLS it at triple price then all this means is that you sold it for less than market price or he has information that you don't have (like a different way to sell it - access to a different market). In this case you now have a right to be mad but not at the seller! It's you who sold it at that price. The best way forward is to think that you have paid for information through those transactions so that in the future you will sell differently.

My point is that you can't be mad at someone for doing exactly what you would do given that you were in their shoes. Just saying - I'm personally not into the flipping side of pinball. Me, I'm happy paying market value for pins I want and I'm happy the seller is getting what they deserve.

We're ALL happy at paying the market value for pins. The gripe is with sellers pricing pins far above market value. Even if it doesn't sell, it perpetuates higher prices for everyone, and prices the low budget owners out of the market for those titles. Right now, there's a Baywatch listed above market value, and it's going to sit for a long time - until the seller comes down to a reasonable price, if ever.
Now when other Baywatches come up for sale in my area and those sellers see this, they will think their worn out, needs-a-fuse Baywatch will also price within this range. Baywatch, which probably should be $2K give or take a few hundred based on condition is now going to be priced as a $4K pin. Basically, someone shoved $600 in parts and LEDs in this Baywatch and then doubled the fair price. I don't know if anyone else sees this or agrees with it, but this is one example.
cleveland.craigslist.org link

So how does one determine fair market value?

Not trying to be a jerk.

I can see my quote was a bit unclear. Let me help with that:

Mods worth their money: ColorDMD, upgraded sound systems that actually make a difference, LED OCD Boards, any replacement Rottendog boards in the back, PDI/Invisiglass, side rails, shaker. Mods that really add to an experience.

Some games have very specific mods that add value: Bill Ung saucer mod for AFM, total rock concert for ACDC, LCD concert screen that replaces the "mechanical band" in ACDC, LCD mod for CFTBL, Bicycle girl strobe light from pinsider, Gnassel - those are GOOD mods.

Mods I couldn't care less for: some stupid ass action figure with an LED in it for $120+, an LED light for a scoop that's like $50, 75 difference mods on a TZ adding $3000 to the game "in value", 37 different mods on a TAF adding $2000 "in value", those lit speaker grill mods, underbody light up kits...I could go on, but hey, I think the point has been made.

Would you REALLY pay $3000 for this?

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Man, with all these action figures, they should ask like $5000!!!!

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Holy cow, that RFM martian and saucer adds another $1500. And the tube girl from BBB? $1000 more!!!

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More does not always mean better, and DEFINITELY does not mean more expen$ive. I'll pay less just to have to take the time to de-mod the game and actually make it worth something again. Prolly a bunch of half-ass hacked wiring in there too just to get those $85 LEDs to light up...

I'm getting close to tossing all my pins on eBay and buy a yacht with the money I make . This hobby is getting out of control

I've always found pricing games to be difficult in the first place. Typically I consult Pinside, the actual ebay sales list that's out there, and fellow pinsides (including the OP in this case). Realistically, I always ignore the high sales and the low sales. They are called outliers for a reason. If my price is off, I know it because the only responses I get to my ads are the chirping of crickets if I've priced it too high or twenty quick responses if I've priced it too low.

I agree, those who are over pricing games make things "look bad". Quite frankly when I see an overpriced game that I'd like to buy, I make a fair offer, attempt to educate the seller and if we can't come down to reality I move on. I've had a decent looking High Speed near me that the seller won't budge from on at $2500 because "that's what he has in it". My advice to him...."enjoy it...it's your game. Just don't expect to get your money back."

In the end, if we all just ignore the high end outliers I think we will still find games at fair prices.

Just my two cents.

Facebook has def affected prices along with social media to some degree imo

Now u wanna talk outrageous when did premier titles and data east go for over 3k???

And no this isn't asking price this is sold price
I get that it's all about title/theme but let's be real I'll take a Williams Bally any day!!!

It is most definitely a sellers market right now. The window is open! It will close again, just has it has many, many times in this hobby.

In reading the 3 pages, it sounds like people are taking the act of buying and selling way too personally and letting emotion get in the way. Emotion is your enemy in buying and selling and will nag at you if you let it. As a sales professional, this is something that they teach us to ignore. You should set the price that you are willing to buy or sell and the terms of how you want to buy and go from there. If you can get a deal, great! If not, just move on. Fixating on a deal that you could not close or that was priced rediclously does not benefit you at all.

The market value does not increase just because sellers are posting higher prices - it's just not that simple.

Let's say every seller decides Baywatch is worth $10K now but no one buys a single one. This may increase demand a bit over time but only because effectively there are non available for purchase. Buyers will just buy other pins and wait it out.

On the other hand, if buyers start buying them for $10K, then this will actually change the price over time but would require multiple sales over a longer period of time.

So my point is that actual sales affect the market and not really just asking prices. Anyone else back me up on this?

And BTW, everyone needs to do themselves a favor and log into eBay and do a search for sold pins, sorted from highest price to lowest - there are very few sales on there - it's mostly a price fantasyland.

This is the same debate that rages on in every hobby once there is greater-than-typical interest. I still remember my dad buying a 1981 Corvette (can't remember the exact specs) for a great price, thinking he could eventually flip it at around the same number.

and it turned out the original seller had added some aftermarket panel or something, and reduced the value of the car significantly. I bet he lost 5k on that. And this was before eBay!

Well, yes this is true. There is the market value, determined by the actual sales and the demand. But the asking prices do affect other asking prices. You really just have to shake your head and walk away. It's difficult to find reasonable market value pins....because once someone advertises a game that is fairly market price, it really stands out in the sea of absurd prices...then folks are all over it.

everyone here thinks everything they buy goes up in value over the course of their ownership regardless of what they do with it. Its a major problem that is very akin to the real estate crisis of 2008.... at some point this bubble will pop and some people - particularily those struggling to participate in the hobby will lose big...the rich guys will shrug their shoulders and take their lumps and just move on to something else.

Did you shop your game or repair it in any way? doesn't matter price goes up!
Did you swap in LED lighting? OH yeah, that's $500 more easily!
Did you put the game on route and expose it to thousands of plays? pay no attention to that, the price is still going up!
Did comparable games sell in your area for less than you paid? pay no attention, MINE is special and worth more of course!

I have seen games that I sold for a price I thought was fair go just a month or 2 later for 20%+ more in the same or worse shape than when I sold it...

I saw a TRASHED BOP (had LED so looked ok from a distance) sell for I think $2400 a few weeks ago near me...are you kidding me? The thing badly needed a playfield swap...

I would be all for offering steeper cut deals for people if I knew that would be reciprocated but there is no indication that anyone is in that mindset anymore really.

I think this one has been up for about two years now on CL, they lowered the price from $5000 to $4500-reminds me of the giant clown head guy up on the Northeast CL. Enough already

cosprings.craigslist.org link

The seller is motivated, hurry, hurry ,hurry

Should I start a thread about you driving down the value of my pin collection by selling 50 pins a year at "very fair prices"? :0

Get your buzzword Bingo cards out. Rare, collectible, vintage. He got 2 of them.

Your statement is at the crux of the issue. While you're entitled to your opinion it's unlikely that you will ever be satisfied with how a free market economy operates. The statement, "at $1000+ over what it should be" indicates that you (and others) understand the value of a pin. You can determine the value of a pin (or anything else) for you, but a free market will determine the value of something over the long haul based on the perceptions, wants, and needs of a larger group of people.

As others have said, if high prices are perceived as outrageous the pins won't sell. If high prices are met with high demand, the prices aren't outrageous, just more than you're willing to pay and certainly more than you paid in the past.

Neither were most collectibles, really. Or at least, not the ones worth anything.

I don't like speculating in anything that was made after I learned how to talk.

Actually, pinball machines were designed as investments according to some of the flyers released advertising them.

Statements like "great returns on your investment".

Doesn't this make an assumption that the one making the investment is an Op?

https://cdn.meme.am/cache/instances/folder238/66035238.jpg

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Yes it does.

And every time I see someone say "pinball machines should never be thought of as an investment", which is quite often, it shows me they do not know what they are talking about, and if they can't get even the slightest return on that investment, it is their own fault for not putting the game out there to do what it was meant to do in the first place.

That's a totally fair point, but I would argue that new games are not really intended to be placed on location. At least not exclusively. So yer not making your money back HUO

This is a both a hobby and a business for me. I buy machines that i feel that I can clean up, add LED bulbs to, add a few other mods, add a warranty and a trade in guaranty of 80 %, and then I shoot for a 25% profit. I also offer a trade inventory of 30-50 machines at all times. Most people appreciate being able to buy a machine that is error free when they get them home; especially the ones that can't fix them themselves. However, there are times when I have people that wrongly flip out because they are not getting what they paid or full value for a machine towards another when their machine has several issues, is not shopped, has no warranty, etc. Its obvious that in most cases someone that can recondition machines is not looking to buy from a retailer, but it is not wrong for someone to try to get the best trade value for their games, and for the same reason it is not wrong for someone to sell their games for as much as they can get.

For the same reason a hobbyist is not wrong for making money for the time that he spent in reconditioning a machine; nobody should frown upon a business or individual that needs to sell his or her games at the highest price possible. These machines vary greatly in price for many reasons, especially condition. The same exact game can be worth 2-4 times as much depending on the condition, and a rare game can be sold to the a hard core collector for even more if its new in the box or close to that. If I had a Batman Forever brand new in the box and never opened, someone would pay $5000 or more for it, because it is worth that. Would that be wrong to do ?

There is no way that the prices of these older machines can stay the same or decrease when there is a fixed amount of them available and a large influx of new hobbyists which does not seem to be slowing down any time soon. As many people have said; it is supply and demand, and if someone is willing to pay for it, there is no reason not to sell it to them (as long as it is being represented properly of coarse). People are not wrong or stupid for buying or selling at what the current market dictates. If you don't like the price of something, don't buy it. Look for another deal, and don't judge the person that is trying to get the best deal for himself.

If you are dealing with a friend, or someone you have known on this site for a long time; it is a given that you should hook each other up, but expecting people that you don't know to take money out of their pockets and put it into yours makes no sense at all.

People often try to sell their used games for what I can buy the same game for brand new, and I don't judge them; i wish them luck and say maybe next time the deal will work.

Pinball is fun. Have as much fun with it for the least amount of money possible.. Don't ruin your experience trying to control what other people are doing.

Just my view...

Manny
Lights Out Pinball