(Topic ID: 233269)

Grand Prix Score Reel issues - Vid included

By MikeS

5 years ago


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  • 20 posts
  • 3 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 5 years ago by MikeS
  • Topic is favorited by 2 Pinsiders

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#1 5 years ago

i picked up a project EM Grand Prix a couple weeks back. Owning/working on EM's are new to me but I'd like to get better at working on them.

I pulled the playfield out of the game and have been working on getting the score reels working correctly. If you start a game all of the reels reset except for the 100K reel (for all players) which doesn't reset. If you set the individual 100K reels to "0" it allows you to start a game.-otherwise the motor continues to run until you shut the game off. It either can't find the reel position or maybe the coil is bad?

The 10 pt and 100 pt reels seem to operate correctly for all players but when you manually forward the 1000pt scoring relay it kind of machine guns through it and locks on the 10K reel. I checked the switch blade positions and the wires on all of the score relays and they all seem to be adjusted correctly. Wires seem to be solidly connected and nothing appears to be shorting/touching that I can see.

For the 100K score reels it has two switches. Is the top supposed to be closed and the bottom open for positions 1-8, both closed for position 9 and both open for 0?

I've attached a quick vid of what is going on. If anyone has any suggestions on what to try next I'd appreciate the help! thank you.

#2 5 years ago

Here are the switch states at the various positions:

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#3 5 years ago
Quoted from Fred736:

Here are the switch states at the various positions:[quoted image]

Thank you. I just went back and double checked my switch states. For the reels with 3 switches they all are set according to this diagram. for the 100K position it only has 2 switches instead of 3. I'd assume that at the zero position that both should be open. At the 9th position should both be closed?-and at the 1 to 8 position top closed and bottom open?

#4 5 years ago

Looks like the 1k relay has some dirty/maladjusted switches on it, for a start based on your video. Should not machine gun. Any stuck switches that score 1000 on the playfield?

#5 5 years ago
Quoted from slochar:

Looks like the 1k relay has some dirty/maladjusted switches on it, for a start based on your video. Should not machine gun. Any stuck switches that score 1000 on the playfield?

Thank you! I currently have the playfield pulled out of the game to help eliminate the chance of having stuck switches. I did clean the score relays with a flextone file and rubbing alcohol but they do still show some corrosion and aren't super clean. I thought I had the switches adjusted well but I'll revisit them and see if it makes a difference.

#6 5 years ago

On the 100k drum unit, the 9th position switch is the omitted one. That's the bottom one on the diagram I posted.
So when the reel is in the 1-8 pos, both the remaining switches should be closed.

#7 5 years ago

Grand Prix won't start correctly without the playfield connected. I was chasing down some issues with mine with the playfield out and it took me a bit to realize this

#8 5 years ago
Quoted from Fred736:

On the 100k drum unit, the 9th position switch is the omitted one. That's the bottom one on the diagram I posted.
So when the reel is in the 1-8 pos, both the remaining switches should be closed.

Bingo! My 100K drums were adjusted wrong. I changed them to be closed on all steps except for the 0 position and now they reset properly (back to 0) when starting a game.

I plugged the playfield back in. I'm able to start a game as long as a ball isn't in the drain hole. -if it is the score motor continuously runs. Still have some other issues to figure out. The 10K and 100K relays still have the same issue as before with the 100K locking on. (it also won't allow me to score above 10K points. but I am at least one step closer to getting the game running! thank you all!

#9 5 years ago

All 4 were adjusted wrong? That usually doesn't happen!

#10 5 years ago

Lets adress the 100k Drum Units (DU) not reseting first.

Below is the portion of the schematic that controls the reset of your 100k DU. The fact that ALL your 100k DUs don't reset may point to the no3 Reset relay which is common to all the 100k DUs.
However the no3 Reset relay also controls the reset ot the 10k DUs. If the complete relay was not working then both 10k and 100k DU would not reset. Have a look at the no3 Reset switches anyway just to rule this out. Maybe 4 out if the 8 switches are messed up for some reason.

Another lead would be the zero pos switches on the 100k DU. Not sure if its the top or middle ones (no bottom ine on the 100k DU) , but they should both be closed when the 100k reels are NOT at the Zero pos. If any one is open, that would prevent the corresponding DU from reseting. Your post #1 seems to suggest one might be open in 1-8 pos! If true, that would be part of your problem.

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#11 5 years ago

Just posted my answer above and realized you has solved that problem... good.

Now onto the next problem.
When you say you cant score above 10k, do you really mean that your 100k DU does not increment by one when your 10k DU rolls over from 9 to 0?

#12 5 years ago
Quoted from Fred736:

Just posted my answer above and realized you has solved that problem... good.
Now onto the next problem.
When you say you cant score above 10k, do you really mean that your 100k DU does not increment by one when your 10k DU rolls over from 9 to 0?

Correct. It actually doesn't go above 9999. When the 1k DU rolls over the 10k doesn't increment off of 0. Thanks again for the help!

#13 5 years ago

Is tHere any reason that there's be a grey wire going from the outhole relay to the Jones plugs in the back of the game? And does the green and blue wires look correct on the outhole relay? The reason I ask is that the motor continuously runs if a ball is placed in the outhole. the

There was a lot of hacked up wiring on this game when I got it and I'm trying to figure out the purpose of some of it. For example the start button was wired up to add credits and the wires to the coil in the backbox that decreases credits was cut.

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#14 5 years ago
Quoted from MikeS:

Correct. It actually doesn't go above 9999. When the 1k DU rolls over the 10k doesn't increment off of 0.

Here is the circuit that makes the 10k DU step up when the the 1k goes from 9 to 0.

If the problem happens for all players, then potential culprit might be the corresponding snow-shoe wiper on the player unit disk. Maybe it fall in between pads. But if that would be the case, you'd have other problems elsewere because all the pads would be misalingned. Check anyway.
Maybe wires connecting to the top strip of the player unit are disconnected. The ones in question here are 5, (affecting all players) and E, F, G and H ( affecting only the corresponding players). See pic below. (Working off my phone here. Uploaded it and later wanted to marked it up but can no longer figure out how to remove that one and replace it with the marked up one. Pinside changed the interface it seems.)

Can also be the contact on the 1000pt relay. More likely. Find the proper contact by refering to the wire colors. Red/yellow and red/orange in this case. Make sure it closes when the 1000pt relay energises. If it stays open, it wont step-up the 10k DU.

Last obvious resort (from looking at the schematic) is that the 9th position switches on ALL the 100 DUs remain open when reels are on pos 9. Unlikely, but then, that was the case for your previous issue.

Test these out. On stanby sitting in the bleachers here waiting for my kid to finish her lessons. Still have some time for another round of trouble shooting.

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#15 5 years ago
Quoted from MikeS:

Is tHere any reason that there's be a grey wire going from the outhole relay to the Jones plugs in the back of the game? And does the green and blue wires look correct on the outhole relay?
[quoted image][quoted image]

Here is the added gray wire. Shown in blue on the schematic below. intent was to bypass the switch on the score motor that energizes the ball release coil. Certainly not a factory thing. But was Jerry-rigged for a reason. In general theae mods are often part of a larger mod and removing them often breaks the overall mod and messes up the game. I always remove those but only after i understand the big picture.

For now have a look at score-motor switch 4A (6th cam from the index cam, bottom of switch stack). Maybe it's defective and that's the reason it was bypassed causing the ball release coil to fire for the whole duration of the score-motor cycle. This would still allow the ball to be served but woud keep the ball release coil energized for long time and have it overheat and possibly fail. Could be the cause of your ball-not-serving problem.... Check the ball release coil.

On your pictures of the outhole relay, i notice an other gray wire on one of the lugs of the outhole relay's coil. Cant see where its going. Looks suspicious . Unless its simply a jumper to the next relay beside it.

The green and blue wires look normal. Just jumpers to the other switches common lugs.

See pic of my machine. I can get a better one when i get home.

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#16 5 years ago
Quoted from Fred736:

Here is the added gray wire. Shown in blue on the schematic below. intent was to bypass the switch on the score motor that energizes the ball release coil. Certainly not a factory thing. But was Jerry-rigged for a reason. In general theae mods are often part of a larger mod and removing them often breaks the overall mod and messes up the game. I always remove those but only after i understand the big picture.
For now have a look at score-motor switch 4A (6th cam from the index cam, bottom of switch stack). Maybe it's defective and that's the reason it was bypassed causing the ball release coil to fire for the whole duration of the score-motor cycle. This would still allow the ball to be served but woud keep the ball release coil energized for long time and have it overheat and possibly fail. Could be the cause of your ball-not-serving problem.... Check the ball release coil.
On your pictures of the outhole relay, i notice an other gray wire on one of the lugs of the outhole relay's coil. Cant see where its going. Looks suspicious . Unless its simply a jumper to the next relay beside it.
The green and blue wires look normal. Just jumpers to the other switches common lugs.
See pic of my machine. I can get a better one when i get home.
[quoted image][quoted image]

Thanks for all of the info and pictures! It's greatly appreciated. I'll get a chance to dig in more once I get the kids to bed but I did do some checking on the player unit and the relays and didn't really notice anything that was incorrect or not connected. The wires all seemed tight when I tugged on them and I checked for continuity for some of them as well. The issue also happens for all players, not just one. I have yet to check out the switch on the score motor but will give that a look. I think the extra grey wire is just a jumper to the index relay beside it.

Here's some pics I took. I'll have to compare these to yours. I'm sure you're right that there's a reason that they added some hacks to the game. Now it's just a matter of tracking down the root cause. But with your help it sure makes it a lot easier!

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#17 5 years ago

Another path to explore regarding your 1k relay machine gunning and locking your 10k relay.

The normal sequence of events is this:

1) 1k relay fires and relay switch at E22 in self hold circuit closes thus keeping the 1k relay energized thru the normally closed EOS switches of the four 1k DU EOS switches. (Red)
2) At the same time, relay switch at C11 closes and energized the coil of the 1k DU thru the player unit. (In Blue and shown for player 1 only). This sets the plunger in mouvement and the reel turns by one unit.
Eventually, the plunger hits the 1k DU's EOS switch and opens it. This switch is in the self hold circuit above (red). So the circuit breaks and the 1k relay de-energizes.
3) also, if the 1k reel happens to be at its 9th pos, then what i show in post 14 above will also happen ie: 1000 re switch at E22 closes and energizes the 10k relay thru one of the 9th pos switches.

Where this could go wrong:
A) if one of the EOS doesn't open when hit by the plunger then the self hold circuit (red) doesn't break and the 1k relay stays energized.
B) or it opens, but just barely and keeps arcing essentially opening and closing rapidly. This would cause your machine gunning.
C) could this lock your 10k relay? Sure could, depending on the relative gapping of the various switches on the chattering 1k relay.

So check your EOS switches on all four of your 1k DU.
Might as well check the gapping on all EOS switch on all 20 DU.

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#18 5 years ago
Quoted from Fred736:

Another path to explore regarding your 1k relay machine gunning and locking your 10k relay.
The normal sequence of events is this:
1) 1k relay fires and relay switch at E22 in self hold circuit closes thus keeping the 1k relay energized thru the normally closed EOS switches of the four 1k DU EOS switches. (Red)
2) At the same time, relay switch at C11 closes and energized the coil of the 1k DU thru the player unit. (In Blue and shown for player 1 only). This sets the plunger in mouvement and the reel turns by one unit.
Eventually, the plunger hits the 1k DU's EOS switch and opens it. This switch is in the self hold circuit above (red). So the circuit breaks and the 1k relay de-energizes.
3) also, if the 1k reel happens to be at its 9th pos, then what i show in post 14 above will also happen ie: 1000 re switch at E22 closes and energizes the 10k relay thru one of the 9th pos switches.
Where this could go wrong:
A) if one of the EOS doesn't open when hit by the plunger then the self hold circuit (red) doesn't break and the 1k relay stays energized.
B) or it opens, but just barely and keeps arcing essentially opening and closing rapidly. This would cause your machine gunning.
C) could this lock your 10k relay? Sure could, depending on the relative gapping of the various switches on the chattering 1k relay.
So check your EOS switches on all four of your 1k DU.
Might as well check the gapping on all EOS switch on all 20 DU.
Sorry for the duplicate image in this post. Inserted it by error and still can't figure out how to remove it.
[quoted image][quoted image]
[quoted image]

Thank you so much for the detailed explanation. That really is a big help in understanding how EM machines work. I think my knowledge has increased 10 fold since picking up this machine a couple weeks ago and your posts have really helped. I've collected pins for 15 years' but have always avoided EM's until now because of not knowing how to repair them.

I took your advice and went through all 20 DU's and I think I may have solved the score reel issue. I wasn't able to test yet since the rest of my family is sleeping and it would likely wake them up but I'm anxious to to see if it's working tomorrow after work.

When I initially tested the EOS switches on my DU's I did so by pushing with my finger. The problem is that doing it this way didn't account for "slop" in the mechanism. This was especially present in the player 1 reels from years' of use but was present in other reels as well to a lesser degree. If I pushed just the metal plunger down with a flat screwdriver it would barely open the EOS whereas when pushing with my finger opened it all the way. I corrected the problem with the EOS's and I also cleaned all of the switches and the metal fingers and adjusted them better than they were previously. I also ran across 2 cold solder joints that I fixed and one of the metal fingers on my player 1 100K DU wasn't making good contact so I adjusted it.

Hopefully doing all of this will make a difference. Thanks again for the help!

#19 5 years ago

The various switches on the drum units are often the source of many startup issues. They need lots of TLC cuz the DUs are one of the most used items on old EMs. Specifically, the player one as you mention.

May contact you via PM to get a few pics of your GP if you dont mind. Completing some work on mine and need some reference pics.

#20 5 years ago
Quoted from Fred736:

The various switches on the drum units are often the source of many startup issues. They need lots of TLC cuz the DUs are one of the most used items on old EMs. Specifically, the player one as you mention.
May contact you via PM to get a few pics of your GP if you dont mind. Completing some work on mine and need some reference pics.

Sure. I'd be happy to help you out with pics. Just send me a PM for what you need.

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