grand prix 1000 and 10000 points always score together

(Topic ID: 206929)

grand prix 1000 and 10000 points always score together


By jdapolito

5 months ago



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  • 34 posts
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  • Latest reply 5 months ago by rufessor
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#1 5 months ago

have a williams grand prix all seems to be working but I
noticed that whenever the 1000 points relay is pulsed
the 10000 point relay is pulsed also.this happens for all players
I cleaned the 1000 point and 10000point relays and the no 3 reset relay and the points seem to be opening and closing properly
but no change
where else do I look
Thanks for all your help

#2 5 months ago

This is most likely a more convoluted problem. On the bottom of the playfield there's a number of relays that change the scoring. For example, the spinner or pop bumpers can be worth 1000 or 10,000 point (for example, actually i don't really remember exactly on this game, but for this example, we'll go with that.) There's a change relay that controls this, usually with make/break switch(es). If the switch(es) are mis-adjusted, you'll get both 1000 and 10k scoring for that particular device. So bottom line... your problem may not be on the 1000 or 10k relays, but elsewhere.

#3 5 months ago

Wouldn’t it probably just be that the switch on the 10k reel that tells the 100k reel to fire is not gapped properly and is making contact each time the 10k reel fires?

But yeah since it’s all players that would be pretty strange that they all needed adjusted.

#4 5 months ago

Clay's logic is sound for many games, however I don't think there are any targets on GP that toggle between 1000 and 10,000 pts.

I suggest checking 2 other possibilities:

1) There is a 10-prong Jones plug that plugs into the lower left corner of the head (FYI: In the manual, Williams calls the component board in the head the "insert"). In that plug, there are 2 adjacent prongs/sockets that go to the 10,000 and 1000-pt relays. Inspect both the male and female ends of that plug to make sure there is no metallic debris or exposed wire that might be shorting those 2 prongs together. A short at this Jones plug could result in your issue.

2) A consultation with the schematic (area E-20/21) indicates that the #1 star relay indeed has a make/break (M/B) switch where one pole goes to the 1000-pt relay and the other to the 10,000-pt relay. This could also cause your issue and is similar to what Clay was describing as a misadjusted M/B switch where the center blade is actually touching both outer contacts.

Please check these 2 possibilities and report back. If it isn't one of those, it may be a more convoluted problem.

Lee

#5 5 months ago

More info:

In the 10-plug Jones plug that goes into the backbox, the wire colors to the 10,000-pt and 1000-pt relays are red/orange and brown/yellow, respectively. The plugs are located at the end where the wiring bundle is. Inspect those closely for a short.

The exact same colors are utilized for the two switched poles of M/B switch in the #1 star relay. Brown/yellow goes to the 1000-pt relay and red/orange to the 10,000-pt relay. A grey/yellow wire comes into the switched middle blade on that M/B. That should help locate the proper switch.

#6 5 months ago

Good advice from @runbikeskilee :

Quoted from Runbikeskilee:A consultation with the schematic (area E-20/21) indicates that the #1 star relay indeed has a make/break (M/B) switch where one pole goes to the 1000-pt relay and the other to the 10,000-pt relay. This could also cause your issue and is similar to what Clay was describing as a misadjusted M/B switch where the center blade is actually touching both outer contacts.

If that doesn't help, start by finding out which circuit if any on the 1000 Point relay is causing the problem:
Manually push the 1000 Point relay. If the 10,000 Point relay pulses, jumper the switches on the 1000 Point relay one at a time until you find the switch that pulses the 10,000 Point relay.

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#7 5 months ago

thanks for the great advice
i will get to it again after work tonight and report
it really is a great game ,with alot going on on the playfield, love those gates !

#8 5 months ago
Quoted from jdapolito:

love those gates

You mean spinners?

I've made some changes to mine to make it harder. I rewired the A-B-C-D targets in series so that you have to get all 4 down to advance the star bonus for double bonus and knock them all down again on the same ball to light EB. I also removed two wires from the spinner relay so it only advances the bonus 1 spot for every 10 spinner revolutions. I just felt it needs to be a bit tougher.

It is definitely a great game regardless!

#9 5 months ago
Quoted from schudel5:

You mean spinners?
I've made some changes to mine to make it harder. I rewired the A-B-C-D targets in series so that you have to get all 4 down to advance the star bonus for double bonus and knock them all down again on the same ball to light EB. I also removed two wires from the spinner relay so it only advances the bonus 1 spot for every 10 spinner revolutions. I just felt it needs to be a bit tougher.
It is definitely a great game regardless!

I may have to try these mods, I rolled my over a few times now, need something a little more challenging.

#10 5 months ago
Quoted from HD_Fatboy:

I may have to try these mods, I rolled my over a few times now, need something a little more challenging.

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/has-anyone-changed-rules-on-their-em#post-3973565

#11 5 months ago

Page 9 of the manual shows post adjustments to make the game harder
http://mirror2.ipdb.org/files/1072/Williams_1976_Grand_Prix_Manual.pdf

#12 5 months ago

Thanks!

#13 5 months ago

well I went thru the above suggestions,the change relay .Jones plugs and cost stat relay and didn't get anywhere
then started going thru the 1000 point score reels and on that one i checked a wire was unsoldoered and i think may have been making contact with the metal on the score reel coil bracket anyway I soldered it and it's scoring correctly now
but now a new problem when the ball lands in the top eject hole it triggers the appropriate bonus unit but is fires continuously until I remove the ball from the hole
I checked the top eject relay
the delay relay all look ok
ideas ?

20180109_234253 (resized).jpg

#14 5 months ago
Quoted from jdapolito:

when the ball lands in the top eject hole it triggers the appropriate bonus unit but is fires continuously until I remove the ball from the hole
ideas ?

Tell us what's firing continuously. Also, see if unsoldering the wire you soldered makes whatever-it-is stop firing continuously.

#15 5 months ago

On williams score reels, as part of any repair, you should tug on each and every wire on the score reel switches. Williams often didn't use enough heat to solder the wires, and often they delaminate their solder off the switch solder lug. If one came off, i'm betting you'll find more.

#16 5 months ago

when the ball lands in the top eject hole it triggers the bonus advance.but the ball isn't ejected it just sits there in the hole causing the bonus advance to continuously advance until I manually remove the ball .

#17 5 months ago
Quoted from jdapolito:

when the ball lands in the top eject hole it triggers the bonus advance.but the ball isn't ejected it just sits there in the hole causing the bonus advance to continuously advance until I manually remove the ball .

What happens when the ball lands into the bonus collect saucers on the right or left?

#18 5 months ago

so far they work properly
bonus points are scored, ball is ejected

#19 5 months ago

Check at 13.5 on the schematic for Top Eject relay. There is a make/break on the score motor that could be the cause.

#20 5 months ago

Agree- that sounds like a score motor switch is not closing/opening correctly and that the hold relay on the bonus saucer is not being reset. Also at least possible the hold switch on the relay is gapped closed... check for switches that dont change state on the relay and on the correct stack on the score motor

#21 5 months ago

If the Top Eject relay is activating, check these switches and this circuit.

Pinball (resized).png

#22 5 months ago

Ok ,got the top eject hole working,poor contact on relay
Now scores fine top eject works but occasionally when left or right standup switches are hit ,these score 500 points and advance bonus, it's like they get stuck the game continuously scores 500points the bonus lights on the corresponding side that the target was hit on continuously advances,the bonus advance relay intermittently fires during this and advances the bonus unit
When the ball drains after being ejected from the rt or left eject hole this continues and then when the ball is ejected from the out hole it continues but now scores on the next player(when a multiplayer game is played)
I looked at the rt and left standup switches they are not stuck closed looked at their switches under playfield they look good also

#23 5 months ago

I am slightly confused- so before proving a dumb answer... when you say stand up switches do you mean the switches behind the rubber on the left and right side just below the bonus award saucers/hole?

It scores 500 and advances bonus continuously every time? Or does it stop sometimes and if it does what makes it stop?

#24 5 months ago

You may have some "floating" contacts. Crimp the contacts on the relays involved with a pair of needle nose pliers.

And if not, check the whole sequence leading up to the two bonus relays at 15 on the schematic.

#25 5 months ago

yes those are the switches im talking about
sometimes it happens the first time they are hit sometimes after 3 or more times .but if I manually hit the rubber and trigger them 3 or 4 x waiting a few seconds in between it always occurs .nothing stops it ,triggering the eject holes or the pop numbers nothing except shutting the game off .and on thinking about it in not sure if it's 500 scores each time, but it's the point value awarded by those switches
Thanks

#26 5 months ago

Those switches behind the rebound rubber are two sets of switches for adding the bonus (front set) and adding the score (back set). If the front set of switches is gapped too tightly and touching it will keep adding bonus continuously. If the back set is gapped too closely and touching it will keep ringing the chime and adding points continuously. Take the plastic off from above and see how close those contacts are. Should be about 1/16" with the rubber ring in place and pressed up against the first leaf blade. Increase the gap as necessary.

#27 5 months ago

got it thanks ill let you know how I male out

#28 5 months ago

ok I adjusted the gaps between stand up switches that control bonus relay and that soved the problem of the bonus lites continuously advancing (I feel so dumb should have taken the plastics off before and taken a good look )
but still had the endless scoring of 500 points
then adjusted the top switch on no.5 motor disc and this solved the problem it seemed like it was bouncing and always making contact
but I'm having trouble getting it just right
if I get it to where the standup switches work right then the ball eject doesnt always work or the drop targets dont reset
right away it can also affect the top ejwct hole
I've tried it several times and can't get all functions to work consistently all the time
maybe there is another place to look for the stand up switch problem or should there be a stiffener under the top contact on the 5 disc or a piece of cardboard ,doesnt look like there should be though
any hints
And thanks for all the help

#29 5 months ago

All I can say is the key to switches is to watch carefully as you move the score motor. A close should slightly move the stationary switch when it hits- and an open should fully open with clear air. The gap is kinda a function of travel. Most score motor switches actually take a good hit and move a bit but its fast when you move it- so ya gotta look really carefully.

It could be somewhere else but its usually not. If you fixed 80 % of a constant problem adjusting one thing- its 99.5% its beacuse you adjusted it 80% correctly. EMs are just not that complicated.

Of course if this is a jacked up machine your rescuing anything is possible and the next switch could be bad but its only one or two places in the whole game. So your really close to done.

Keep up the good work!!

#30 5 months ago

Just a thought here, did you check the contact on the 500 point relay? this relay is attached to the underside of the playfield. I had a set of contacts a little too close on mine and through vibration it was being made and scoring points.

#31 5 months ago

the score motor switch seems to be opening and closing ok bit something is keeping the 500 relay activated its not the standup switch
I looked at the schematic but couldnt see if there is anything else that could be activating that 500 point relay
otherwise the game is working fine and alot of fun.i adjusted the 500 switch so that it is barely touching ,switch b 22 in manual, so the bonus advances bit you get only 100 points instead of 500

#32 5 months ago

This is a little bit of a guess because I don't remember for sure, but I think the 500 relay has a hold switch through the score motor?.. that circuit could be the issue. The manual for this game is awesome. Check that relay switch and find the hold switch if it has on (confirm then trace on schematic first). If that switch is Ok it's one of the other switches down from there to the score reel. Not positive but the release is probably coming from the score motor.... please confirm hold with manual then if yes, I think you are there and will find the issue. If no... I will have to look on schematic and can do so. Let us know.

Use the manual on this game, it's really really good. Maybe it's just me, but I "Just Get" this manual... some other EM manuals I find to be far less inviting.

If your not sure what a hold is, I think There is a sticky thread in the EM hang out that Steve wrote which has animations for many common EM circuits. I think he goes over a hold function in there... it basically lets the machine count To 5 to pulse the 100 point reel 5 times through the score motor rotation and other things like that.

#33 5 months ago

yes it has a hold switch and it is i believe controlled by that top switch on disc 5 of the score motor
it opens and closes properly and adjusted it to get it just right is there another switch in between that could release the hold relay .I did look at schematics but didn't see any thing
but I am by far no expert at reading schematics
Thanks for all the help

#34 5 months ago

Hmmm... at this point it still seems like a stuck switch on the playfield- but there are only two possibilities which you appear to have checked. I would start by throwing paper between all the contacts on the play field switches behind the rubber ring on the left and then the right side of the game and see if you can isolate the issue to one or the other side switch- also check for solder drops and other issues with switch stacks to ensure no shorts!

If both sides cause the same problem then isolate all contacts on the 500 point relay and remove paper from playfield switches and confirm problem goes away (but no scoring). If you take 500 point relay it should stop this for sure- and depending on what happens with isolation of the playfield switches you may have a better idea of whats going on.

I like looked at schematic briefly and this is probably as good a place to dig in as any- it really seems like a shorted or closed switch but this should help confirm.

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