Grand Lizard - Game randomly dies

Get a DMM/Voltmeter and measure the pier supply voltages. Most importantly, measure the +5 logic voltage at the MPU test point, and check AC ripple. Take measurements both when the game is cold at power up, and after running a bit warmed up. Have you ever replaced the main +5VDC capacitor?

#3 7 years ago

CHD

djreddog

Pinside member

I haven't replaced anything on this game since I have owned it. I'll reach out to my buddy for a history lesson on the Voltmeter and +5 logic lingo and will report back. Thanks!

#4 7 years ago

CDY

cody_chunn

Inactive member

Mobile, AL

9y 64,800 4,520

+5 shouldn't be below 4.75 VDC

+12 unregulated shouldn't be below +10.7 VDC

Replace the electrolytic capacitors in the power supply circuit, starting with the 18000uf 20V job.

1 month later

#5 7 years ago

CHD

djreddog

Pinside member

Haven't had a chance to work on this game yet. We just fixed No Fear over the weekend, and after a month finally narrowed down the problem with my Austin Powers, hopefully. I have a new set of trough optos coming in today and that should fix Austin. After that I gotta rebuild my flippers on Space Shuttle, and then my final task will be Grand Lizard. I will follow up with everyone so you guys know how I made out.

#6 7 years ago

TKK

ufiti

Pinside member

Chicago, IL

8y 32,900 130 4

Same thing was happening to me every once in a while. Installing the Inkochnito bridge board resolved it: http://home.kpn.nl/p.koch3/bridge_board.htm

#7 7 years ago

CHD

djreddog

Pinside member

Quoted from ufiti:
Same thing was happening to me every once in a while. Installing the Inkochnito bridge board resolved it: http://home.kpn.nl/p.koch3/bridge_board.htm

Thanks for posting. Any chance you could give a little more detail as to what was actually happening with your machine? From reading the FAQ on that bridge board, it appears it is a fix for games completely shutting off unless I'm reading it wrong. My game never shut's off, in fact my flippers still work. Just want to clarify before I order one of those boards.

#8 7 years ago

TKK

ufiti

Pinside member

Chicago, IL

8y 32,900 130 4

OP
Quoted from djreddog:
Thanks for posting. Any chance you could give a little more detail as to what was actually happening with your machine? From reading the FAQ on that bridge board, it appears it is a fix for games completely shutting off unless I'm reading it wrong. My game never shut's off, in fact my flippers still work. Just want to clarify before I order one of those boards.

Ah, I didn't realize your flippers would still work. Mine was a bit different than that. It would randomly restart in the middle of a game. Everything would go dark, than a couple seconds later the game would start up as if I just turned it on. Either way, at some point I'd still probably recommend installing those missing fuses on your own (http://www.purcellvillepinball.com/fireinformation.html) or by installing the Inkochnito bridge board.

#9 7 years ago

DAV

wayout440

Pinside member

OP
Quoted from djreddog:
My game never shut's off, in fact my flippers still work. Just want to clarify before I order one of those boards.

Wait a second... Did I miss something? Your original post says the system just dies, and you lose all void, slingshots, displays. So you lose everything, but the flippers still work???

#10 7 years ago

CHD

djreddog

Pinside member

Quoted from wayout440:
Wait a second... Did I miss something? Your original post says the system just dies, and you lose all void, slingshots, displays. So you lose everything, but the flippers still work???

You didn't miss anything. My initial post did state that, however after playing it some more this past weekend I was in the middle of the ball, flippers were working, but scoring stopped and the only sound was the bongo music playing. I don't recall if the slingshots were working or not. If it helps I can make a quick video of the issue.

#11 7 years ago

JMR

pinballplusMN

Pinball Plus Inc.

11y 84,800 2,591 1

Also check for broke or missing flipper diodes on the coils as they can be a cause of this issue too

#12 7 years ago

CHD

djreddog

Pinside member

Quick update. The girlfriend wanted to play some pinball tonight so we played a game on GL. 3rd ball for me was a killer. 3 different multiballs and 2 extra balls. Well score was up around 6 million and my 3 ball multi ball just ended (lost 2 of the 3 balls). Then I noticed that the multiball flashers didn't reset to the "flashing state" and instead all 3 remained solid green. Current ball in play was fine and all items on PF were working as well as scoring. Finally I hit the lock shot to lock what should have been ball 1 and then the game responded as if I had just locked 3 balls. It kicked out the only ball I had locked and the scoring was flashing "triple score" and then the kick out for the locked balls just kept kicking over and over and over. Not sure if this has anything to do with the previous posts or not but figured I would share. Is it possible my main board is going bad or something?

#13 7 years ago

DAV

wayout440

Pinside member

Did you run a switch test? That's the first thing you should do. I would run switch edge testing multiple times under different conditions (both warm and cold), and you must make certain to use a ball to test each and every switch - not your finger. Especially important to test each lock switch and every ball position switches (trough, shooter lane, kickout holes. I'm not satisfied unless I can get a consistent read using a ball at least 10 times.

#14 7 years ago

DJC

Don_C

Pinside member

Milwaukee, WI

12y 46,850 549 21

To me, it sounds like the program is 'jumping the tracks'. I suspect the data and address busses are losing a bit or a byte and the software does not know what to do.

Reseat all socketed chips, check their legs for corrosion or tarnish.
Do the 5V and ripple checks

Some good bulletproofing:

Replace any chip sockets if they are poor quality (Bally used brown Scanbe sockets, they were the worst. But old Williams sockets may not be much better)
Replace 40 pin interconnect between MPU and Driver boards
Replace power supply capacitors
Reflow solder on all MPU and Driver board pins
Replace MPU/ Driver board pins and connectors if any show signs of heat stress (tarnish, dull finish on pins, browned plastic)

IF you are unsure on how to lift, clean and reseat chips, get some advice or help first, you can cause more problems if you don't do it correctly (but it's not that hard to do).

Don C.

#15 7 years ago

CHD

djreddog

Pinside member

Quoted from wayout440:
Did you run a switch test? That's the first thing you should do. I would run switch edge testing multiple times under different conditions (both warm and cold), and you must make certain to use a ball to test each and every switch - not your finger. Especially important to test each lock switch and every ball position switches (trough, shooter lane, kickout holes. I'm not satisfied unless I can get a consistent read using a ball at least 10 times.

Haven't ran a switch test, although will definitely give it a try at this point.

Quoted from Don_C:
To me, it sounds like the program is 'jumping the tracks'. I suspect the data and address busses are losing a bit or a byte and the software does not know what to do.
Reseat all socketed chips, check their legs for corrosion or tarnish.
Do the 5V and ripple checks
Some good bulletproofing:
Replace any chip sockets if they are poor quality (Bally used brown Scanbe sockets, they were the worst. But old Williams sockets may not be much better)
Replace 40 pin interconnect between MPU and Driver boards
Replace power supply capacitors
Reflow solder on all MPU and Driver board pins
Replace MPU/ Driver board pins and connectors if any show signs of heat stress (tarnish, dull finish on pins, browned plastic)
IF you are unsure on how to lift, clean and reseat chips, get some advice or help first, you can cause more problems if you don't do it correctly (but it's not that hard to do).
Don C.

All of this is way above my abilities. Still new to this hobby and still struggling to solder properly. I'll share this with my buddy as he has been repairing machines for over 20 years. Thanks for the advice!

2 months later

#16 7 years ago

CHD

djreddog

Pinside member

Still no luck getting this resolved. With problem that I described, is it possible there is an issue with the board itself and it needs repair/rebuilt? As mentioned, I'm new to this hobby, and I don't know why people send boards out to be repaired/rebuilt to begin with.

#17 7 years ago

DAV

wayout440

Pinside member

The reason people send boards out is usually because they have done some troubleshooting and have diagnosed the problem is a particular board and not something elsewhere. It does no good to send out a board if the problem is elsewhere.

For your switch problem, find the section on switch testing all rows and columns at the MPU board. This procedure should confirm whether or not you have a problem on the board.
http://techniek.flipperwinkel.nl/wms11/index3.htm#opto

#18 7 years ago

???

pindel

Pinside member

12y 53,300 718 1

Pull on all of your coil wires and coil diodes. Everytime i have this problem, it's a lose or broken coil/diode problem. Only take a few seconds to check all coils. Remove batteries to make sure no problem there. I had a game with remote battery pack with +/_ reversed.

4 months later

#19 6 years ago

CHD

djreddog

Pinside member

Another update to this thread as I still have the issue happening. I didn't go through the game with a fine tooth comb yet, but after talking to a few other pinsiders some of them did suggest a possible board issue. So I took the board out and sent it off to Ed Cheung to work on and after 2.5 weeks of stress tests he hasn't seen a single issue. Is my next step what pindel mentioned, and to go through every coil/diode or is there something else I might be overlooking?

3 weeks later

#20 6 years ago

CHD

djreddog

Pinside member

For those of you who have offered suggestions for GL shutting down randomly, problem resolved. First I sent out the board to Ed Cheung for testing, no issues. Next I replaced all the caps on the PSU and this seems to have resolved the problem. Thanks for all the help!

#21 6 years ago

DAV

wayout440

Pinside member

OP
Quoted from djreddog:
For those of you who have offered suggestions for GL shutting down randomly, problem resolved. First I sent out the board to Ed Cheung for testing, no issues. Next I replaced all the caps on the PSU and this seems to have resolved the problem. Thanks for all the help!

Congrats! Glad you solved it.

Looking back on this thread, you could have had this solved nine months ago...with a little electronics knowledge,measuring the DC and AC ripple voltages with a DMM would have revealed a bad cap, and you probably did not have to replace them all...or send out the MPU board. Just food for thought for the future.

#22 6 years ago

CHD

djreddog

Pinside member

Quoted from wayout440:
Congrats! Glad you solved it.
Looking back on this thread, you could have had this solved nine months ago...with a little electronics knowledge,measuring the DC and AC ripple voltages with a DMM would have revealed a bad cap, and you probably did not have to replace them all...or send out the MPU board. Just food for thought for the future.

Still learning the ropes of troubleshooting in this hobby. Just finally learned how to use a DMM for testing voltage and fuses. Any thoughts on the Space Shuttle display issue? Confirmed the -100 on the PSU is dead. Do I have to buy a new board at this point?

#23 6 years ago

DAV

wayout440

Pinside member

Those supplies can be rebuilt, but really not worth it IMO. A lot of components to deal with, Unless it is a simple quick fix, I opt to replace them and be done with it. I just did this with my DE Secret Service. Both the +100 and -100 was shot, along with a bunch of crappy fuse holders.

#24 6 years ago

CHD

djreddog

Pinside member

Searching eBay, looks like the going price for a refurbished PS board is around $70-75?

#25 6 years ago

DAV

wayout440

Pinside member

I bought a new board at Marco, $139

#26 6 years ago

CHD

djreddog

Pinside member

Well I spoke too soon. Grand Lizard just died on me. Music is still playing, all lights working. Displays go out, and all flippers/magnets stop working. The CPU board has the number "8" on it.

#27 6 years ago

DAV

wayout440

Pinside member

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/u10-pia-failure-where-to-find-and-replacement-repair-advice

7 months later

#28 6 years ago

CHD

djreddog

Pinside member

Reviving this thread as I still experience the same issue. It's totally random. But the symptoms are the same as mentioned above. Music and lights still work but the displays go out and none of the coils/flippers/magnets work. Turn the game off and back on and the game plays fine for awhile. Where do you think the problem lies? In the PSU or the CPU? This is the first pin I bought, and the girlfriend said we are never getting rid of it. So at this point I'm thinking of just buying a new CPU and PSU and hopefully be done with it. Previously I replaced all caps on the PSU and though that resolved the issue but ultimately it didn't. Thoughts?

#29 6 years ago

RDM

boscokid

Pinside member

Chad, I would not buy a new MPU as I don't suspect that is your issue.

Have you tried wiggling the power supply connections while the game is on? My guess is you are losing either power or ground from a loose connection or short. Can you post your voltages from the PS test points and maybe post a picture of 3J5 and 3J6 (top of PS board) from front and back. Did you repin any connectors on the PS? Verify that board is screwed in tight and the ground is good.

Someone above mentioned checking all your coil and switch diodes, did you get a chance to do this yet? It's always a good idea to do this I've had a broken diode cause all sorts of weird issues but never a total shutdown.

Intermittent issues are the worst; just when you think it's fixed..........

#30 6 years ago

RDM

boscokid

Pinside member

Also, can you clarify if the flippers are now NOT working during the shutoff? Looks like you posted the opposite previously

#31 6 years ago

DAV

wayout440

Pinside member

Quoted from boscokid:
Chad, I would not buy a new MPU as I don't suspect that is your issue.
Have you tried wiggling the power supply connections while the game is on? My guess is you are losing either power or ground from a loose connection or short. Can you post your voltages from the PS test points and maybe post a picture of 3J5 and 3J6 (top of PS board) from front and back. Did you repin any connectors on the PS? Verify that board is screwed in tight and the ground is good.
Someone above mentioned checking all your coil and switch diodes, did you get a chance to do this yet? It's always a good idea to do this I've had a broken diode cause all sorts of weird issues but never a total shutdown.
Intermittent issues are the worst; just when you think it's fixed..........

+1 sounds like some repinning is needed here

#32 6 years ago

MAT

snyper2099

Cincinnati Pinball

16y 103K 7,647

I had this happen on a game with a new power supply once (TFTC). The game would play for hours (sometimes days) on location and just crash for no reason at all. It was so annoying. Every socket and power test point was checked and all were fine and the test points never fluctuated thought the months that the game was on location. It turned out to be a flakey EPROM. I burned new ones and it solved the issues. I would at least look at replacing the game and sound EPROMS before you buy a new MPU. They are not that expensive.

#33 6 years ago

CHD

djreddog

Pinside member

Quoted from boscokid:
Chad, I would not buy a new MPU as I don't suspect that is your issue.
Have you tried wiggling the power supply connections while the game is on? My guess is you are losing either power or ground from a loose connection or short. Can you post your voltages from the PS test points and maybe post a picture of 3J5 and 3J6 (top of PS board) from front and back. Did you repin any connectors on the PS? Verify that board is screwed in tight and the ground is good.
Someone above mentioned checking all your coil and switch diodes, did you get a chance to do this yet? It's always a good idea to do this I've had a broken diode cause all sorts of weird issues but never a total shutdown.
Intermittent issues are the worst; just when you think it's fixed..........

After thinking this out further, I also agree that a new MPU isn't the route to take since I sent the board over to Ed who stress tested it for days with no issues. Instead of waiting and trying to track this problem down to a new PSU, and the fact I'm keeping this game forever, would it be wise to go ahead and replace the PSU for the hell of it and then rule out all of the stuff related to power?

As for checking every diode, I believe I did this and didn't notice anything broken.

As for the flippers not working, I don't recall at the moment. I'll keep playing it and the next time it dies I will report back.

All that was done to the PSU was install all new caps, which I didn't do the install. Does installing new caps also require re-pinning or is that another step? I know for a fact my guy only put new caps in, but I don't know what all that entails.

For the voltages, do you want a reading now as the game is working as intended, or do you want a reading once the game dies? I have not wiggled any PSU cables while the game is on.

Quoted from snyper2099:
I had this happen on a game with a new power supply once (TFTC). The game would play for hours (sometimes days) on location and just crash for no reason at all. It was so annoying. Every socket and power test point was checked and all were fine and the test points never fluctuated thought the months that the game was on location. It turned out to be a flakey EPROM. I burned new ones and it solved the issues. I would at least look at replacing the game and sound EPROMS before you buy a new MPU. They are not that expensive.

Are you able to burn these ROMS for me?

#34 6 years ago

MAT

snyper2099

Cincinnati Pinball

16y 103K 7,647

OP
Quoted from djreddog:
Are you able to burn these ROMS for me?

Possibly. But I would suggest buying them from someone on Pinside that specializes in such things. I don't stock these EPROMS.

#35 6 years ago

RDM

boscokid

Pinside member

Re-pinning is different than replacing capacitors. Post a picture of the solder joints along the edge of the back of the power supply board, the male connectors on that board, and female connectors that connect to them.

If it was me I would just redo them anyway. Watch a TNT video and he talks about reflowing and re-pinning on every game they touch

Voltages while the game is on (meter on VDC, red on test point, black on ground braid)
Wiggle cables while the game is on, being careful not to touch anything other than the cable you are trying to move.

#36 6 years ago

TNT

toddtuckey

Pinside+ Frequent

Southampton, PA

12y 83,400 713

ALL of the capacitors on the power supply are over 30 years old and drying out...ALL should be changed to start!

#37 6 years ago

CHD

djreddog

Pinside member

Quoted from toddtuckey:
ALL of the capacitors on the power supply are over 30 years old and drying out...ALL should be changed to start!

Thanks Todd! That was the first step I did.

#38 6 years ago

CHD

djreddog

Pinside member

So I spent several hours playing GL last night trying to get the game to lock up, of course no issues. I even took the glass off and put the game under heavy stress by activating all of the targets and switches while in multiball to the point of rolling the scores twice and I still couldn't get it to lock up.

Going to dive into it more tonight as I have WMSpin coming over to fix a couple of other issues I'm having on other machines.

#39 6 years ago

TOM

loneranger

Pinside+ Frequent

12y 114K 626 214 1

My GL does the exact same thing. Just when you think it's fixed and have a great score going, it rears its ugly head again. The troubleshooting guide suggests that it is a bad diode so that's what I'm going to look at next.

#40 6 years ago

CHD

djreddog

Pinside member

Quoted from loneranger:
My GL does the exact same thing. Just when you think it's fixed and have a great score going, it rears its ugly head again. The troubleshooting guide suggests that it is a bad diode so that's what I'm going to look at next.

Let me know if you find out something. I will also report back and update with any findings.

#41 6 years ago

RDM

boscokid

Pinside member

OP
Quoted from djreddog:
So I spent several hours playing GL last night trying to get the game to lock up, of course no issues. I even took the glass off and put the game under heavy stress by activating all of the targets and switches while in multiball to the point of rolling the scores twice and I still couldn't get it to lock up.
Going to dive into it more tonight as I have wmspin coming over to fix a couple of other issues I'm having on other machines.

Did you guys make any progress? Its going to be next to impossible to find an intermittent problem by just playing the game then looking after it locks up.

#42 6 years ago

CHD

djreddog

Pinside member

Quoted from boscokid:
Did you guys make any progress? Its going to be next to impossible to find an intermittent problem by just playing the game then looking after it locks up.

We didn't get a chance to really mess with it. We were fine tuning all the other games and fixing known issues in then to get them ready for the tournament.

Installed new CPU in T2, and replaced a bad outlane switch.

Dirty Harry had a gun issue.

Space shuttle had a display problem.

No fear had a switch out that needed re-soldering.

We are credit for free heading into 3/10, minus the unknown with Grand Lizard. I might spend some time on it Sunday.

#43 6 years ago

DEC

GRUMPY

Pinside member

10y 95,050 8,703

Clip a voltmeter to the 5 volt TP and ground TP on the cpu. Play some games and monitor the voltage during mutiball. Make sure you have plenty of gap on the slam switch on the coin door. Report back the voltage you find.

#44 6 years ago

COX

maestro

Pinside+ Frequent

Fincastle, VA

9y 51,100 447 21

First, yes you need to do a complete rebuild kit on the PSU. If your guy did a cap kit hopefully all the necessary caps were replaced. Second at the very least pull the PSU out and reflow the solder on every connector. At the very least, again, clean the pins on the board. A better idea is to replace the pins with new ones (repin the board) and cut out the connectors, one wire at a time while putting each wire into new connectors with a molex crimp tool. Now that you have that done do the next that most people overlook. The board grounds by the metal ground trace on the back and is screwed to the metal it mounts too. Clean the exposed strips around the back of the board very well and shiny. Clean the rails that the board screws too. Then make sure the ground braid is well connected to the metal sheet this all screws to in the back box. If you have a crappy ground it will cause all kinds of mess. If you don't have the tools or know how to repin just try cleaning the pins and reflowing and getting the ground right. If that don't fix it maybe hire someone to come repin and do new connectors.

#45 6 years ago

TOM

loneranger

Pinside+ Frequent

12y 114K 626 214 1

OP
Quoted from djreddog:
Let me know if you find out something. I will also report back and update with any findings.

I did find a broken diode on one of my upper flipper coils. Replaced it and so far so good, but time will tell.

1 week later

#46 6 years ago

CHD

djreddog

Pinside member

Just a quick update on my random lock up issue. It has not locked up in almost 3 weeks. Very strange as the game gets play quite a bit and in the past it would usually lock up at least once. Didn’t really change or do anything other than removing one extra piece of electronic equipment off of the plug. Time will tell. I’m fairly confident the game will die during the 40 player tournament in hosting on 3/10.

#47 6 years ago

CHD

djreddog

Pinside member

So finally the game died on me today. First game of the day, nothing crazy going on, no multi-ball or anything. Just hitting some drop targets and it died.

CONFIRMED - Background music is still playing and all lights are on.

CONFIRMED - All coils are dead and no displays.

Powered game off and back on and have played 10+ games with no issues. I will be testing the voltage later today.

#48 6 years ago

CHD

djreddog

Pinside member

Last update for now. Since this game is never leaving the house (per the girlfriend), I'm just going to buy a new PSU. I've already replaced the displays and display driver with new, so might as well buy a new PSU. I'll report back after I get that installed.

#49 6 years ago

CHD

djreddog

Pinside member