Or, just be fair to both parties and make a friend.

I like it. Would probably buy one but not to use as a topper.

That looks great. I'm not really a "topper person" But i think i want one.

I'd like one for my machine, loving the lit ones. But not sure it would be cost effective to postcode 2456 Australia?

How much are you selling those toppers for? I think they look great too.

PM sent.

Looking for a price check / sanity check on the Grand Lizard that I finally had the chance to go see in person today. Game belonged to an older gentleman that has recently passed away. His widow is selling the home and the real estate agent reached out to his pinball familiar friend to list it for sale. So a few extra people involved to figure out the logistics to see the game. Anyway, I got to see it today and these are my observations:

Game is currently unplayable. Game is in decent enough condition cosmetically, but the displays are out and nothing happens when you hit the start button. Admittedly, this could be anything as you can't see what is being displayed. Could be in test mode or might not be in free play mode and doesn't have any credits or it might be seeing an issue with the ball trough switches and can't start a game because it doesn't think all the balls are there. Just guessing here.

So, the displays are all out and I thought, hey, maybe it's just the fuse. Well, looking closer when I got there revealed the batteries have leaked straight down and corroded some aspect of the connector for the ribbon cable going to the displays. So the displays still could be fine if it is only the battery corrosion on the connector. Batteries were dated JAN 1997, so ya, this game hasn't been looked after in forever.

All rubber rings and post sleeves and flipper rubber is toast. Like dried out and snapped in most places. Plastics and ramps look nice, no obvious cracks or chips that I could see.

Cabinet looks quite nice. There are a handful of scuffs here and there but nothing major. It has two holes on the front for what would have been a lockbox bar, but maybe they came with that. It was probably routed at some point, but I am also guessing the owner might have bought it not long after it was made (1986).

Backglass is very nice. Most of the GI in the backbox and playfield is working it seems, even though every bulb is still incandescent. All four flippers need to be rebuilt. Not sure about coil condition, sleeves for sure, coils themselves are probably fine. No way to test that yet.

Coin door and mechanisms look to all be present and in good condition. Same for the lock box, lid and handle, tilt plumb bob pieces are all there. No manuals or documents or spares that I could see.

Playfield is filthy with dust more so than grime from years of use. Inserts felt reasonably flat in the areas I felt around. Upper playfield has some of the typical wear, but it's not that bad. Not as bad as some of the other photos I have seen of this game. It is still worn around those inserts near the drop targets, but much of the art is still there. Drop targets look to be all there, but can't test them resetting without displays working.

Underneath cabinet is clean, no water damage or gum, lol. Power cord has the grounding plug cut off so that'll be replaced tout suite. Back of cabinet has the furniture glides looking nice or new still and the backbox latch is in place. No inside bolts holding the backbox up though.

So, my overall impression is that while the game can't be played right now and there are some serious questions about the displays and main power board, it's overall just in need of elbow grease and a shop job and new rubber, LED's, flipper rebuilds, fuses, etc.

The corrosion on the power board is evident, yet when I looked inside with it on, the little LED indicator number shows a ZERO. I believe this means the CPU passed the test. Which is a good sign, right? When you turn the game on, it makes a few seconds of sounds and noises, but that's it. I don't really know if the sound system is working correctly or not. Again, can't test quite yet.

With all that said, what would you estimate the value of this pin as is to be? The wildcard of course would be if the power board needs replacing and a close second being if the displays need replacing. Those are available but pretty darn expensive from the looks of things.

I took a ton of pics and can share more if you'd like. Would love to hear your thoughts. I would like to get the game still and make it new again, just don't want to break the bank if it is going to cost more to refurb than it will ever be worth. So wondering what would be fair to offer to buy it. Cheers.

IMG_0469 (resized).JPG

IMG_0470 (resized).JPG

IMG_0473 (resized).JPG

IMG_0476 (resized).JPG

IMG_0477 (resized).JPG

IMG_0478 (resized).JPG

IMG_0483 (resized).JPG

IMG_0484 (resized).JPG

IMG_0485 (resized).JPG

IMG_0490 (resized).JPG

IMG_0491 (resized).JPG

IMG_0492 (resized).JPG

IMG_0493 (resized).JPG

IMG_0501 (resized).JPG

IMG_0502 (resized).JPG

IMG_0503 (resized).JPG

IMG_0506 (resized).JPG

IMG_0507 (resized).JPG

IMG_0512 (resized).JPG

IMG_0516 (resized).JPG

No displays isn't a surprise with the battery damage and right at the ribbon cable. It will need the MPU serviced and that ribbon cable replaced to start.

That cabinet looks clean and backglass in excellent shape. The rubber rings, etc don't matter since those aren't expensive and you'd put new ones on anyway when shopping the game.

Do you think that MPU is repairable? I know you are good at that kind of work.
That's the big concern since system 9 MPUs are hard to find.
Everything else looks really good.
That's a nice looking game.

Edit: Sys 11, not 9.

Just as a worst case scenario... is this then going to be a suitable replacement if that MPU isn't repairable?

https://www.thepinballwizard.net/rottendog-circuit-boards/williams/bally-system-11-11a-and-11b-and-11c-mpu-board-mpu9211/

That's a HUGE chunk of change, especially when converting to Canadian dollars. Exchange rates, shipping, customs, etc. and I think this is going to be close to one thousand Canadian to get this board if it comes to that.

I am leaning towards the game as it is being around $2,000 to $2,500 CAD with some big time guessing for the board (agreed that rubber rings are inexpensive and would be getting done anyway). Something around $200 CAD for the flipper rebuild kits and perhaps another $200 CAD for LED bulbs and other odds and ends and I think that would be sufficient.

Oops, my bad. I said system 9 above.
Yes, it's a sys 11, which is less rare, and at least is available.
That should work if the original is not repairable.

I do think it is repairable. Need to strip off the components in that area, clean off any corrosion and neutralize it then replace the connector for the display and ribbon cable. If any traces are rotted through then jumper wires installed.

I had to do work on my own Grand Lizard MPU to get that going.

$1800 is the most I would offer. You really don’t know what you are getting into, so don’t overshoot your initial offer.

I would never pay 1800 for that game…. You can’t assume anything with acid damage is ever even repairable (even if it might be). You should just assume it will cost you a new MPU and a new set of displays, even if it doesn’t need them. That way you will not be upside down on it. You could be looking at $600-$700 in parts to get it running. Subtract that from what you think it’s worth fully working ($2300 fully working is my estimate on its value) and make your offer. Anyone else suggesting otherwise is not doing this pinball buying thing correctly. Also, There is a ton of wear on that PF. This is just the way I always consider things as another opinion. I don’t do this for a living but I hardly EVER put any money towards a game that I know I can’t easily recoup. Would I pay 1500 for it? I probably would not even pay that for it but, I already have a GL. And I DO think it would sell at that price, it’s just not the right item for me.

I appreciate the feedback. I like the work backwards from what you think a good condition, completely sorted machine is worth. And also assuming that in the worst case scenario, you do need the MPU and displays replaced with new.

Pinball Wizard for the MPU and displays totals $1,100 CAD with shipping and the exchange rate from US to Canadian ($100 USD = $135 CAD right now).

Flipper rebuild kits (all four), rubber rings, balls, bulbs, fuses, ribbon cables, power cord, misc. at around $500 CAD.

That's $1,600 CAD of investment to make this game right, not counting my time or any other surprises of things that don't work (which there could be many as much of it couldn't be tested when I went to look at it).

There was one in Quebec a couple weeks ago that was advertised as completely sorted and it was originally listed at $4,000 CAD. With similar playfield wear as far as I could tell. No idea if it sold for that or if it sold at all. Maybe he got $3,500 to $3,750 CAD for it.

1000-1500 CAD would be my offer.

^^ THIS is the reality check that is too often missing from runaway pinball prices these days.

I guess we are living in an age where people sitting on stacks of disposable income don’t really need to care about what makes for a sensible cost analysis, but for the mere mortals need to know what is in their checking account, value needs to be tied to additional post-purchase costs. It’s gotten to the point where expecting reason in pricing is met with dismissive cries of “it’s worth whatever somebody will pay for it”, an attitude that keeps a lot of people from being able to enter the hobby.

Unless these sellers are real sharks, you should offer them the *lowest* price you can justify. Let them counter offer if they want to. Lots of times people are just eager to be rid of a big heavy dirty old machine that to them has no value whatsoever. You on the other hand need to invest in costly upgraded parts and you should also place a value on your time, hobby or no.

I was thinking $800 US, which translates to ~1,082 Canadian.

I recently purchased a GL for 2400 USD. It was working, had a better pf than the one you are looking at. Didn't have the re-glued bottom panel. needed a flipper rebuild.

I think 2400 was probably high for my machine.

How is the lizard vac-forming on the machine you are looking at?

I gently pushed and pulled on the lizard thing at the top and it felt solid. No cracks or chips anywhere and I don't think any of the tabs were broken off, although admittedly I was not in the mood to take it apart and perhaps newly break something. It seemed to be in good shape.

I'm not familiar with what you meant by the re-glued bottom panel?

In your photos it looks like there is and additional cleat glued around the inside of the bottom panel ( on bottom)

Gotcha. Like a mylar sheet? I think that would have been from the factory, wouldn't it have been? Didn't they all come that way back in the day?

Thanks for this. I completely agree. The numbers don't lie when you add them up and the minute you get specific and start putting a summary together with real costs, it can be surprising.

The engineer in me does spreadsheets like this for all kinds of stuff and I certainly do it for pinball. Rubber rings are indeed inexpensive, but not zero. I also have replacement parts and spares already in inventory but that doesn't mean they were free or don't have a current cost.

And my time, for sure. Because I enjoy doing it, doesn't mean someone else gets to prosper from that. Like those ads you see where they say "oh, simple fix, just get this $5 part and put it in." Oh really, eh? Then why don't you just do it before you list the game for sale?? lol Love those. Simple huh. Apparently not simple enough for some sellers...

I mean on the bottom of the cabinet- Looks to have had some problems and the bottom was secured with an additional cleat around the inner edge. Just an additional strip of wood that helps secure the bottom if the slots in the cabinet give way.

It looks to be neatly done. Just not original if you care...

Pinside_forum_7544646_18 (resized).jpg

Actually mine has it too, just a lot more sloppy that your machine.

Joining the club. Just rescued a decently used GL. The playfield seems an earlier one. Dated 1985 instead of the usual 86 and the Magna-Save area does not have the dotted circles.

46BDC983-8C50-4E21-817B-9D350022B48E (resized).jpeg

68DA202E-3FE6-4817-A23B-616A04206D35 (resized).jpeg

The machine looks really nice overall. The sys11 board can typically be easily repaired. So, no need to waste money on a replacement. Remember to add the extra fuses on the bridge rectifiers attached to the backbox. For the battery damage consider yourself lucky this sys11 board has been attached “upside down” so that the battery alkaline damage could only touch a few components like the resistors. Later system11a-b-c boards have the battery on the upper side. The possibly damaged resistors can still be found, if I am not mistaken. Otherwise just use single resistors like I did on mine.

He was only calculating that he MIGHT have to replace the PCB and factoring that into an offer, not that he absolutely will have to replace it.

Out of curiosity, are any of the system 11 era games that came out after Grand Lizard backwards compatible? Like if I wanted to do a temporary MPU board swap for troubleshooting? I have a Space Station and Diner but not so sure that idea would work?

I have to say I think Grand Lizard is a great bang for the buck game. I find it a little under priced, compared to some of the other games sold in it’s price range.

I tried a GL game version L-4 available on planetary but that did not work for me. Had to revert back to L-3. Eprom sizes seems to be the same so I don’t think there is any jumper to set. Sound and music are still on L1 so no change required AFAIK.

Anyone else running on L-4?

https://www.planetarypinball.com/mm5/Williams/tech/sys11roms.html

Received my topper this morning from Greg the parcel post guy.

I have to say that everything about this transaction exceed my expectations.

From the friendly sale, the hefty discount, the prompt service, the great original price to the custom cut packaging and finally the product has been well above what i expected.

Thank you mate, i have paid three times the price for toppers and got nothing more than a piece of perspex and an led strip. I was expecting a 3d printed block, but it's cool with everything hidden inside.

I'll get it mounted sometime in the next couple of days and put a pic up

Just the fact that you were willing to go out of your way to post to the other side of the world shows your commitment to pinball for everybody.

Have no doubts people, it's a nice product, from a nice guy, at a nice price.

DSCF2291[1] (resized).jpg

DSCF2290[1] (resized).jpg

I want one and I don't even have a Grand Lizard. I hope to get a machine someday soon. Still want the topper just because it's cool and I want to support the maker.

Picked this up over the weekend! Most everything appears to work.

Magna save clicks the power supply relay like crazy, I think it's supposed to do this? Black Knight doesn't.
I don't hear any sound but I think that's an issue with the cable not being plugged in.
Displays work but are missing some lines, so i'll prob do an xpin swap on it.
Backglass is flaked by the Madrill's hand. Couldn't find a repro backglass so far.
Plastic head has a piece cracked/missing on the one horn.

Playfield looks in decent shape, it's more rough on the bottom than top surprisingly. Gotta decide if I want to eventually do a hard top (My Space Shuttle and Black Knight needed one, so if I do, this would be the 3rd).

Update:

I installed an Inkochnito rectifier board I had an extra of this morning.
Adjusted the backbox light board as well so it lines up w/ the displays better.
Also found the cracked off part of my lizard head, will have to epoxy it back on carefully.
Fixed the sound (Cable was not plugged in and hanging down in the cabinet.

pic1 (resized).JPG

pic3 (resized).JPG

pic2 (resized).JPG

pic4 (resized).JPG

pic5 (resized).JPG

Check with Bgresto.com. They have both the original and the prototype back glasses.

Been a lot of coins through there and a lot of smiles like the one your grandkids showing.

Good find.

Trying to recap the background sound board, C-11029 / 5766-10929. Can't find schematics and the manual shows C-11030. Anyone know if the cap locations are the same or another game that uses C-11029? Hoping to get rid of the humming sounds. If I can't get a list, I was going to order a Kahout board.

Built some Wolffpac displays for my Grand Lizard today. What a fun kit to assemble. Turned out great, I have an xpin in my Space Station (I got them with that machine) and I don’t see a difference really.

Got the system 11 kit in green. $155 shipped to my door. Took about 2 hours to assemble and the instructions were very good (I didn’t do it all at once).

IMG_7675 (resized).jpeg

IMG_7680 (resized).jpeg

IMG_7681 (resized).jpeg

Been hard at work stripping parts, cleaning and buffing metal stuff and getting things generally ready to hard top the machine.

I bought a Vevor 30L Ultrasonic and grabbed some purple power. Usually I just end up naptha/novus'ing stuff and buffing the metal pieces til mirror finish but this makes things a lot nicer and gets everything really cleaned up. I may have found a good deal on purple power and bought way too much (10 gallons)!

I've got new inserts on the way as most are yellowed and a few other odds and ends.

stripped3 (resized).JPG

stripped1 (resized).JPG

stripped2 (resized).JPG

ultrasonic (resized).JPG

strippedplayfield (resized).JPG

parts (resized).JPG

polishedcleaned (resized).JPG

Glad to hear you’re doing something with the inserts. Seems like every time I go to check out a potential purchase on a hardtopped machine, the inserts look old and original, cracked and faded.

Only one I've kept inserts on was Black Knight because you can't get replacements for the gem inserts. I do have to sand a few due to not being able to get the same color starbursts but those are in better shape.

I have an Eightball Deluxe that I'm preping for a new hardtop. I sanded down the inserts and re cleared, but they still looked lousy. I ordered all new inserts. I can't stand using the rattle can clear coat, so I sanded each insert with 120, 220, 400, 800, and then 1500 grit. Looked good, but then I remembered reading somewhere on Pinside about using Novus 2 on inserts. Inserts look great now!

Took a couple of pics. Insert on left is sanded to 1500 grit. The one on the right is the same, but then hand polished with Novus 2 for maybe 1 minute.

20230530_183201 (resized).jpg

20230530_183234 (resized).jpg

20230530_183328 (resized).jpg

Here are some of the old inserts I had tried to sand and re clear while still installed in the playfield. Mind you someone had already installed a hardtop over these (and the other 50 old inserts). On the advice of other Pinsiders, I just ordered all new inserts.

20230601_142133 (resized).jpg

20230601_142418 (resized).jpg

I sand to 3000 grit in a dewalt 5” sander, no novus or clear. Turns out like the entire playfield
Looks clear coated.

Here’s Black Knight. I think my pads go 1500, 2000 then 3000. Takes another 5 mins to go
From 1500 to 3000.

IMG_7107 (resized).jpeg

IMG_7109 (resized).jpeg

IMG_7111 (resized).jpeg

Looks great man! Are those the original inserts, or did you get new ones?

Those are the original ones. It looks pretty nice finished. There are a few that you can tell are a little faded but made the decision to keep because I didn’t like how ones with starbursts looked as much.