Anyone have suggestions for fixing the exploit in upper play field?

Exploit: It’s possible to trap ball on upper L flipper and backhand the “cave” loop, still hold up L flipper and ball travels over to bang the “release” stand-up on right, hold up R flipper to return ball to trap on upper L flipper, rinse and repeat indefinitely.

I need to put a stop to this during tourney play.

I gapped the switch wider on the “Release” standup on R wider. This prevents maxing out bonus, but still possible to trap on L and backhand “cave” repeatedly.

Thinking about longer coil stops on both upper flips to prevent traps up there.

Suggestions?

Smaller flippers

Numerous things can be done.

1. Change the pitch. Either much higher or much lower.

2. Wax the upper PF.

3. Raise or lower the flipper resting position. This will in turn change the angle for trapping easily. Also adjust upper flipper ball guides to create “ball hop”.

4. See attached photo. The metal return ball guide located next to the stand up can be bent to change the direction of the ball.

5. See attached photo. Install a fatter rubber. This will cause the ball to bounce into the middle of the upper PF instead of safely returning to the right flipper.

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Recruit worse players?

Sorry. I'm not willing to drive to Virginia for a tournament, but thanks for thinking of me.

Did not know about this trick and will need to see if it works on mine.

Upper playfield exploit was abused again last night during a tourney at our Pinball Collective, in spite of my tweaking the upper right standup (ball release/50k shot) switch gap much wider. Made for some frustrating standing around....

It now takes a really solid hit on the upper pf right standup ball release/50k target to collect those values. Even so, a few knowledgeable folks were still exploiting, still trapping on upper pf left flipper, backhanding that orbit then letting the ball travel across to far right, hold up right flipper to easily trap back on left, rinse and repeat until everyone else has finished their matches and is standing around. It’s not as lucrative but still collects points with every orbit behind that left flipper.

Fortunately for us all the game unexpectedly reset and it was taken out of the rotation.

Next attempt to fix the exploit will be adjusting angle of upper flips, maybe adding a longer coil stop to left side.

More pressing issue are the resets.

Anyone have feedback about why my Grand Lizard might be unexpectedly resetting? It only seems to happen after it’s played continuously for a long period of time.

The power supply has been fully recapped.

I’m eager for any suggestions where to look next.

Based on what I am seeing posted about the upper-playfield exploit, and the large flipper bats, I can now imagine why so many of these have trashed upper-playfield damage. I am wrapping up the finishing touches on mine, which I got at an estate auction in town, and between supply chain challenges and my weak art skills, this was a tough project. I still haven't decided if I will keep or sell this machine - leaning towards "sell." I have some hardware coming from Marco and others to wrap up the target banks and power supply rebuild/mods. Then, I think I'll decide. My daughter, who is a much more talented artist than I am, lent a hand. The bulk of the playfield is in terrific shape, with factory Mylar still holding up, so I just didn't think a full hardtop was worth the effort. So, instead I did a 33% hardtop I designed and made myself. A few hours of PhotoShop can be fun, as long as I don't charge myself for the time against the project...

So far, I've rebuilt all the flipper mechs, repaired (epoxy/painted) the dragon, replaced the displays with Wolffpack LEDs, and cleaned cleaned cleaned.

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Mine does this, as well. I suspect that this is an old System 11 issue with dried-out caps. I'd look to replace ANY caps in the game on the MPU that are in the 5v line. Also, make sure all socketed chips are well seated, and all connectors for power are clean and solid. My High Speed never acts like this game, but I replaced every cap and power line when I refurb'd it.

Would be also good to check to see if any diodes are missing or broken on the coils. If so that could contribute to resets.

I’ve kept mine. It is really popular with friends who otherwise go comatose when you try to explain to them the rules for a modern pin. Python’s back glass is epic ugly. What’s not to love?

And your restoration looks fantastic. Enjoy the game at least for a while when you finish.

Tell us more about your process…when you say you made the hardtop yourself, what did you print on? Is the graphic underneath the plastic?
Really interested to know what you did here. Looks great!

Thanks for the nod and your point is well taken - other than the seizure-inducing #63s that go off when someone ramps a ball, it IS a lot of play that's easy to master. Its something that is going to take the place of two Silent Scopes I have headed for sale, so it'll be around for a tiny bit more...

First, thanks for saying so! I am NOT an artist by any means, so this all trial, error, sweat, and maybe seeing what others have done...

I have a flatbed scanner that I can lie down on a playfield and connect USB to my Mac, so that makes getting a scale basis of the playfield going. It is not perfect, and scale errors show up, so I have to get creative with test prints and identifying landmarks so I can test and adjust. I might make 5 to 25 black and white lo-res examples and I mark each one up with bright ink pens on where I'm wrong.

Once I have the scans in, I often need to assemble them from several scans around the area - so, say hello to PhotoShop layers! Each one comes in and is lined up with the other scans for a composite. I usually spec a fresh blank image to the exact scale (I use inches) and then turn on grids and go to work. I use a Mac trackpad, and my daughter screams that I need to move to a digital pen. I'm 50 so I'm shakier than I used to be, but I make do.

When the working image is as true to the playfield as I can make it, I look to the damage. How can I recreate what's missing? Google has gotten amazing when I search for images, and while reaching out to other owners is always a sharp idea, most only have cell phone pics of their playfield under some lighting condition that's not mine at an angle that's not directly over the area. I have to collect as many as I can and I lay them out.

I have a 40" HD monitor, curved, semi-matte finish, running a display port interface at the highest freq I can get. This makes the process a LOT easier, since I can look at things at scale and any brightness I like. I pay for PhotoShop and it's worth every penny if one knows how to use it.

Speaking to that - Photoshop: layers, magic select, regular select, shape tools, clone stamp, import/export, scaling and skewing, image format, and more - I can manage all of these, so I can get creative on the process when I have imperfect images to bring in. For example, in this job, I fixed the man and creature by hand, and it showed, but it WOULD have been basically OK. A friend of mine found a terrific image of an example playfield, in very bright light, but it was perfect. It was close on a good angle and had great resolution so it took to scaling and skewing very well. After an hour or so, I had to admit that what he found was going to be perfect, not merely OK. I spent a lot of time isolating that sample and playing with its tones to get it close to what I had for a base image, and tune.

Printing was a disaster.

I need a local shop for printing this work, as I need to speak to the shop manager and discuss what works. Unless they have experience with the image format and materials, it's a waste of time. I hunted and found a shop that is a local franchise. I uploaded the 500MB PSD file so they could explore it, and they gave me a photo paper proof for testing. I went home, cut it up and dropped it in - it was too dark. Never mind this isn't Mylar, and that matters, but I lightened up the print and asked for the final. Due to supply chain issues, it took them almost a month to get Mylar sheets, and that also restricted the size of the print - I wanted to cover MORE real estate, but the width was capped.

They printed the final and I excitedly went in to get it - and it was handed to me by a tech who was frowning as he showed me. It looked bad. It had streaks, and was TRANSLUCENT. I wanted it on white-backed adhesive-backed Mylar, and they printed it to a Mylar sheet. I could feel a tear welling up, but I got an idea. I asked for a sheet of white photo paper and laid it on that, and it POPPED. THAT was what it took - the streaks could not be seen and all the colors went the way I wanted.

This complicated the process, because I would have to map the white backing first to the playfield, and mark and cut the inserts and holes. When that was done, I did a test for fit with the graphic, and when that was done, #77 spray adhesive was applied to the backing. I dropped the Mylar on it, and then cleaned the #77 from the inserts with rubbing alcohol.

After that, I sanded the playfield with a Dremel and sanding flapwheel tool I left a small margin and then sanded the spot with 400 and then 200 grit sandpaper to level it. I then used 2000 grit wet sand to clean and polish the inserts. #77 applied to the graphic and then placed on the playfield. I use a rubber roller to get all the adhesive to catch, then I let it cure. Once cured, I put the playfield back together.

Some of the pics in that post show this process. I was circumspect with up close and isolated pics as I am not interested in a copyright issue with Williams holdings or the Planetary Pinball (?) who have the hardtop license authority. A cease and desist under the DCMA, even if I give it away, isn't worth my time. So, I made this for me.

There's a lot of time in this - it's a hobby for me, not a business, and I enjoy the process. If I had to bill for this? Meh.

Thanks for the in-depth description - I was curious to see how your process aligned with the way I take on playfield graphic repairs, and it sounds like basically the same process. I haven’t gotten into scaling/skewing or working from images online, mostly have been able to re-create graphics using a combination of photoshop and Illustrator. I did in fact buy a pen tablet to help with that, and it does make the work a little nicer to do.

The scaling thing is something I have sometimes had problems with, other times not. Saving files in TIFF format seems to mostly eliminate issues of scans not translating 1 to 1; I’m not using a fancy scanner either, it’s a good quality Epson flat bed I’ve had for 15 years. I don’t know how much of a curve ball it introduces when you start stitching images together; I did do that on one repair last year, but it only involved 2 scans. I would imagine the more images are composited, the more potential inaccuracies can creep in.

Depending on the playfield, some of the repairs I do are with masking and airbrush, others need decals. On Vid’s Guide to to restoring playfields he doesn’t really get into doing white waterslide/full color decal repairs, but I saw a guy’s thread on restoring a Diner using them a few years ago and started pursuing that option as well, and it opens up a lot of possibilities.

The irony in all this is, I have a GL here that is slated for restoration, and like all GLs, the upper playfield is scorched. Some guy did his best to re-paint it, but it’s very “done by hand.” So…I had been looking to do this exact kind of repair, and had been worrying over how well I could pull off a waterslide decal of that size. The idea of making my own hardtop repair never occurred to me.
Why is this ironic, you ask?
Because a week ago the owner found a NOS playfield and had it shipped to me.
I will definitely scan it for future GL repairs. It kind of kills me that I’m hearing about your repair only after the fact.

Anyhow - that idea of a *thin* hardtop repair is compelling. The same guy who has the GL also has *two* Solar Fires (the machine that was essentially repainted to be GL, minus the split level playfield.) He got them from some guy who was trying to get one usable game out of them (I guess the playfield on one of them was really done for.) I’d like to see if I can restore them both since it’s rare to see that machine and rarer still to see it in decent playing condition; your idea makes me think this may be more feasible to consider than I had been imagining.

I despise waterslide graphics. I will use them to remake plastic parts, and I did so with a lot of success on a Gottlieb Genesis I own. The slings were from a Firepower of all things, and the stock ones are staged with two levels. I found a pinsider that had decent ones, scanned them, and I used my PhotoShop skills to "repair" them. I made the plastic parts from black and white print scans as guides and used my scroll saw to cut them. Painstaking, but they work.

I would not think to use a waterslide on a playfield (and then cover in clear Mylar?) for fear of how hard it is to work with them. Printed Mylar let me peel it back and make a couple of attempts to set it in place as I wanted it.

I don't use TIFFs - only native PSD format and then export. I'm not sure if its RAW, but it then always exports the way I want it to, and I can preserve my layer and artwork. Stitching images together is a (fun) puzzle for me. I like the challenges!

I have never seen a Solar Flare up close, but I have examined their similarltiy.

Here's a question for the group - does anyone have scans of the prototype plastics??? I am about to pull the trigger and buy a prototype backglass that's been edited to have the score windows moved for the stock layout (was edited in PhotoShop of course) by BGResto. I think the game won't be complete for me visually if I can't find the plastic set.

Anyone have them scanned or know of a source?

I’ve had good success working with waterslide decals for playfield graphics, but always as part of a clear coat restoration - you have to place them in between layers of 2K. I’ve done some large repairs using them, and some irregular shapes as well. Weird shapes are hardest because it’s a trick to get them off the Backer without folding over onto themselves. It’s a bit hair raising for a few minutes but I’ve always been able to make them work.

I started using TIFF format after photoshop saved some files in this super huge format and only using TIFF as the format kept it one-to-one. But who knows what was causing that. The TIFF thing might not be relevant to others but it worked for me, so I just started using it for everything, since it is cross-compatible with AI as well as the Silhouette vinyl cutting software.

Sad news today….

https://www.pinballnews.com/site/2022/02/22/barry-oursler-dies/

Can someone please tell
Me when the Bell is supposed to ring during the game? Mine used to ring on occasion, and it rings test mode so I know I works, but it hasn’t gone off in a long time .

Not sure if it’s a specific achievement?

Extra Ball and Special.

Thanks don’t think I’ve ever gotten extra ball.. (did get my hi score tonight). Must have gotten special at some point and that did it. Will pull the glass and test

Still surprised this game doesn’t get higher ratings. It’s always a fun time.

With stock configurations, the game plays too long and is very samey since the major points come from keeping it up top. This is why the upper playfield is seriously worn on alot of them. I envisioned a broader ruleset and had a programmer friend interested, but he is always so busy with his day job. Not knocking it, since I did own one for years, but these things are why I believe it isn't rated higher. Fun layout with great art (the Faris art, anyway), but just not enough there, rules wise.

Any updates on your exploit?

I widened the gap on the switch on the upper far right advance/release standup target, which seriously cut down on folks exploiting... you have to really hit that target direct and solidly now to collect and advance the loop value. It's not difficult, easy enough to release a multiball, but the bounce back tends to send the ball to the lower PF, preventing quick repeat trapping on upper PF and exploiting that loop shot.

Also I changed the resting position of the upper left flipper. This didn't help much, as one can still trap easily on upper L flipper and backhand the ball behind the drops on the upper left. But without the easy adv standup scoring, this looping is just not as lucrative as before. Previously one could backhand that loop and just hold the upper L flipper up and ball would have enough speed to come around and score on the right advance target...then re-trap on L and loop again and again at progressively higher values, rinse and repeat to build a huge score. This is no longer the case, with the switch and flipper adjustment, the ball no longer has enough speed to score on the right adv standup without flipping, so that backhand loop value doesn't build so easily.

I just got the game home off location, I will likely try adding a longer coil stop to the upper L (maybe both upper flippers) to make it more difficult to trap and hold the ball on upper PF.

I love the game and enjoy playing with people using the whole PF, using the ramps and the spinner, not just trapping and exploiting on the upper. It became a problem in our league and lead to some lengthy boring games.

Now to track down the sneaky occasional resets. Power supply was recapped previously, and I did a quick check for quirky diodes. I will redo some connectors, replace cables and thoroughly wring out voltages.

djreddog I started to rebuild my flippers today I was surprised to discover a number of things.

Turns out my Grand Lizard has the wrong flipper coils in it. Overpowered uppers!

Might explain why some folks we’re unfamiliar with the “exploit” I mentioned earlier in the thread. It’s likely easier on my game’s set up than others’ games, with my stronger than factory upper flippers. Not exactly good for drop targets or minimizing pf water and tear.

Also found an installed patchwork of older serial coils and new (overpowered) parallel flipper coils. While everything was wired correctly; the parallel flipper coils didn’t have the needed spike protection capacitors on the brackets or even high voltage eos switches....consequently my game does have some really nasty looking (and one totally ruined) EOS switches.

I was led to all this when a pitted EOS switch leaf snapped. I’m so glad it didn’t short against the low voltage lane change switch behind it.

The old coil stops plungers and links were very worn. The old flippers had much more travel, and steeper hold angles than they should have.

I guarantee the upper flippers geometry will change once rebuilt and upper pf area will likely be less exploitable.

I’m still going to go against the factory spec and use medium Williams coil stops on the flips rebuild. I’ll order both and if I don’t like the shorter flipper travel, I can switch out for factory stops.

Note: this game played great before I purchased it at our heavily used club space in spite of all above. It’s gonna play even better soon with some much now that it’s getting some some needed TLC.

For anyone who cares.
Manual and multiple reputable tech’s posts spec the following for Grand Lizard.

Lower (standard) flippers coils:
FL 23/600-30/2600 (old Serial coils)
FL 11630 (equiv newer Parallel coil- red)

Upper (weak) flippers coils:
FL24/600-30/2600 (serial)
FL 11722 (parallel -green wrap)

Note: the Serial vs Parallel coils are wired differently and depending on your spring choice proper matching shaped links, springs, and coil retaining brackets are needed.

Newer style flipper brackets (with tall switch stakes) may be required for proper Parallel coil & cap installs. See Vid’s excellent flipper rebuild guide for info. https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/vids-guide-to-upgradingrebuilding-flippers#post-284661

From IPDB: “Grand Lizard' is one of three Williams games that went into production using System 11. All three games have incorrect schematics showing the same error by depicting placement of the flipper end-of-stroke switch on the wrong side of the coil. As far as we know, all games left the factory correctly wired for EOS. Only the schematics were incorrect. No Manual Amendments or Service Bulletins have been found that acknowledge or correct this error. For a correct drawing of EOSS placement, consult the schematic for Williams' 1986 'PIN·BOT' or subsequent Williams games.”

Coil Stop observations.

My manual doesn’t specify proper coil stops. Popular Part Vendors’ info is all over the place and often incomplete or contradictory regarding this, same (suraltho PinBall Life and a few tech’s sites specify early Williams short coil stops (steep flipper trap/cradling angle). My research suggest Grand Lizard shipped with factory stop A-10822 also used on same era F-14, Big Guns, Comet, Sorcerer, Pinbot.

Factory installed?
Coil stop A-10821 (silver?)
The protrusion into the coil for this Williams Short coil stop is 0.330.

I prefer a more difficult to trap/ harder to backhand gameplay.

Coil stop A-12111
Williams Medium (gold) coil stop A-12111 is what I’m using. The protrusion into the coil for the Medium Stop is 0.370.
These were used by Williams/Bally games from 02/1988 to 04/1993.

And if I still don’t like that on uppers, I can resort to Williams Tall A-12390 coil stops for even shorter flipper travel. This is what they used on late WPC era 08/1993 to 10/1998 games.

My GL started popping the lower flipper coil fuse (again) so ims tarting to wonder if i have some sort of wander fault somewhere, since the game have been working now for awhile after the last stint (changed the coils, checked the EOL switches, the trans and the diod that turn).

Could it be a rectifier?

I'd work the problem like this:

1) Check flipper coil voltages - make sure the readout is stable and as expected
2) If you don't have a breaker you can alligator clip in (my preferred method) you might lose some fuses, but you'll need to isolate first left and right flips (bang away at them) and see if one side or the other blows
3) If one side or the other causes this, then you'll need to narrow down upper or lower
4) ALWAYS inspect the movements of the pawls, solenoid pistons, EOSs, and the rest with power off, slowly, by working them by hand with a LOT of light (headlamp). Often, there can be shorts that form as things move and touch

Hello all,

Wondering if anyone makes a tongue for the ramp and the ramp itself possibly? Thanks! JR

Having similar fuse issue. My flipper fuse keeps blowing.

Looking into it I discovered:

I’ve got a special solenoid (switch 44 lower right sling) error showing switch stuck on. Switch is fine, coils look okay, but game blows fuse. Thankful -probably saving my sling coil from melting.

Switch still shows as on even with pf switch matrix cables disconnected from board. So it must be on the board somewhere?

Only thing i did last time was to change the upper coils (one ont he left which had melted during a match) to the type thats supposed to be in the game (old coil which was instaled in it was a... Gottlieb coil or something IIRC, some strange brand it was anyway) according to the schematics and change both EOS to brand new ones, and then it worked again til now.

I'll check yer list here and get back with some results i hope.

I get no errors at all, it just pops the fuse after like 5-10 flips while in game, and ive checked the fuses so its the right kind and all according to manual.

Do you have a flipper power board you can swap?( If you haven’t already done that )

That was going to be my suggestion. I had a bridge rectifier go on the flipper power board. Swapped it out and everything worked great after that.

No, sadly only williams game i own, others are gottlieb

The one on the board next to the fuses? Switched it out for s new one last time.

Install lightning flippers on upper playfield? That would make the shot more difficult but probably would not stop it completely... unless... you put mini flippers up there. Now that would stop it but, it might also make releasing multiball nearly impossible.

Removing the lower center post between the flippers would reduce ball times as well.

If anyone is looking to trade or sell their GL, I am looking for one.

Well, this is the fuse that was blowing for me and that rectifier right below it needed replaced.

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Is it a 35A rectifier? Looks old. Also redo those board connectors and your harness connectors.

I’m a “if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it” guy. My Grand Lizard is working fine. I was just showing a photo of the flipper board and the rectifier that might need replaced. I’ll worry about my board when it fails me.

Pinballpcp makes arguably the best replacement boards for GL. Or you could see if Clive at Coin Op Cauldron can recondition the board that’s blowing the fuse. He does excellent work, going through the entire board, and the cost is reasonable.

http://pinballpcb.com/

I already switched that one for a brand new last time the game popped fuses, so it cant be that. All i have left to do is that fuse mod you do on the other bridges in the backbox.

This hurt. I was missing one slingshot plastic. Had to buy the whole set. Ouch!!!

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AJGross let us know if you want to sell others. I bet some peeps might need a few here and there.

Update. New Williams “Fliptronic” style flipper brackets installed. The ones with the springs outside of flipper pawl instead of the stock ones with return spring around coil plunger.

I did opt for slightly longer coil stops (A-12111) in ALL the flippers. (Note these were not gold like I stated. I suspect they may differ in color depending on where sourced?)

The longer coil stops, correct weaker upper coils (mine had wrong coils up top) and careful setting of the flipper resting positions has completely eliminated the exploit in the upper pf area I mentioned previously, and generally makes it a quite a bit more challenging to keep ball
in upper pf area.

My game is playing fantastic. Eliminated exploiting the cave shot by trapping on upper left flipper, backhanding cave, and simply holding up left flipper to collect speed 50k on upper right stand up.

With the slightly longer coil stops, holding up left flip as ball comes out of cave loop now sends ball directly out the right side of upper pf. It’s been fun watching other players reactions who were used to the lazy exploit that was possible on my game.

Collecting the 50k speed shot now requires some really quick reactions and flipping as ball exits cave loop. Challenging and so so fun.

Also the slightly longer coil stops makes it hard to trap at all in upper pf. It is still possible, but it certainly requires some deft flipping to collect all the drops before hurry up resets them.

The extra ball speed from rebuilt flippers is fantastic, and the slightly longer coil stops didn’t change much at all down on lower pf. I can no longer backhand the A & B ramps, (but they are easy enough to make from
opposing flippers) and it’s kinda harder to trap, but I really appreciate breathing fresh life and challenge into the game.

Also adding the caps to the flippers, and new eos switches has made a noticeable difference. I dunno if it’s related, but my game hasn’t spontaneously reset since the work was done! (I did check all the supply voltages while in there and everything is in spec. 5v is dead on.)

Apologies about lengthy update but wanted to follow up.

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Old flipper mech

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New “Fliptronic” style mechs upper pf flippers.
(I haven’t finished soldering wires yet in this photo)

Hey all!! I’ve been wanting a grand lizard for a few years.. if any one knows of anyone selling one or thinking about selling one for a non astronomical price please let me know If they aren’t in a rush to sell it so it gives me time to continue to save for it works as well!! Thanks!!!

Game over game play...

Any remaining locked balls are ejected at the beginning of the enter high score initials sequence (as opposed to waiting for the match sequence). Flippers remain enabled until the sequence times out.