(Topic ID: 330550)

Gottlieb Vulcan won't advance to ball two

By ita47

1 year ago


Topic Heartbeat

Topic Stats

  • 48 posts
  • 6 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 1 year ago by paulace
  • Topic is favorited by 2 Pinsiders

You

Linked Games

Topic Gallery

View topic image gallery

Vul (resized).JPG
Vulcan add bonus simplified (resized).jpg
Vulcan drop targets (resized).JPG
Vulcan 1B 2 (resized).JPG
Vulcan 1B 1 (resized).JPG
Vulcan score motor switches (resized).JPG
Vulcan 100 relay (resized).JPG
Vulcan add bonus circuit (resized).JPG
Vulcan motor sequence (resized).JPG
Vulcan CDE (resized).JPG
pasted_image (resized).png
image_67213825 (resized).JPG
image_67182593 (resized).JPG
image_67222273 (resized).JPG
image_67213825 (1) (resized).JPG
image_67199489 (resized).JPG
#1 1 year ago

I am working on a Gottlieb Vulcan that has been sitting for decades. I have a couple of problems but I will start with this one. The game will go through the reset sequence including the player unit and I can play ball one on player one, but when the ball drains it goes through the bonus countdown, drop targets reset and the ball is kicked to the shooter lane but the game stays on ball one. I have checked the trough switch and cleaned it. When the trough switch is closed, the coil on the player unit will lets say twitch, but it doesn't actuate a full stroke. If I manually actuate the coil 4 times it moves to player one ball two. I'm not sure what is supposed to happen to make it cycle 4 times on the player unit. I have attached the schematics and I have located the trough switch but I'm not sure what all I need to be tracing and checking on the machine.

I guess I should mention another issue as they could be related. The coin unit doesn't advance as it should, The subtract coil works, but the advance coil will twitch sometimes but doesn't actuate like it should. I can manually actuate the advance coil and ad players.

image_67199489 (resized).JPGimage_67199489 (resized).JPGimage_67213825 (1) (resized).JPGimage_67213825 (1) (resized).JPGimage_67222273 (resized).JPGimage_67222273 (resized).JPGimage_67213825 (resized).JPGimage_67213825 (resized).JPGimage_67182593 (resized).JPGimage_67182593 (resized).JPG

#2 1 year ago
Quoted from ita47:

when the ball drains it goes through the bonus countdown, drop targets reset and the ball is kicked to the shooter lane but the game st

When the Trough switch is activated, does the Add Player Unit (P) relay stay locked on for pretty much a full 1/3 turn of the motor?

#3 1 year ago

Is the first ball relay locking on after points are scored? If not, the game will not advance.

#4 1 year ago
Quoted from HowardR:

When the Trough switch is activated, does the Add Player Unit (P) relay stay locked on for pretty much a full 1/3 turn of the motor?

Sorry I just got a chance to get back to working on my game.

The (P) relay activates when the trough switch is activated but just for a second or so but not a full 1/3 turn of the motor.

#5 1 year ago
Quoted from bonzo71:

Is the first ball relay locking on after points are scored? If not, the game will not advance.

Yes the first ball relay is locking on after points are scored.

#6 1 year ago

I’m still struggling with this, does anyone have any suggestions?

#7 1 year ago
Quoted from ita47:

I’m still struggling with this, does anyone have any suggestions?

Quoted from HowardR:

When the Trough switch is activated, does the Add Player Unit (P) relay stay locked on for pretty much a full 1/3 turn of the motor?

Quoted from ita47:

The (P) relay activates when the trough switch is activated but just for a second or so but not a full 1/3 turn of the motor.

I'm not sure what you're saying. To me, "a second or so" is a "full 1/3 turn of the motor".

#8 1 year ago
Quoted from HowardR:

I'm not sure what you're saying. To me, "a second or so" is a "full 1/3 turn of the motor".

Sorry, I guess it would be a fraction of a second, but not long enough for 1/3 turn of the motor.

#10 1 year ago

Wow thanks HowardR for the info. I'm not real familiar with EM's but I am learning. I just watched the video showing the alligator clip testing and I would have never thought about that tactic. Unfortunately I won't have time tonight or tomorrow night to work on my Vulcan. I will report back as soon as I get a chance to test that circuit which maybe this weekend.

3 weeks later
#11 1 year ago

Update: My buddy jdoz2 came out yesterday and helped me with Vulcan. We got the game playing, advancing balls and it will end the game now. It was some switches that were out of adjustment. Then we ran out of time and had to quit but definitely closer than when we started. I can't thank John enough for helping!

My issue now is the bonus and scoring. When you hit a drop target it should score 500 points and move the bonus light one space, but mine is only scoring 100 and it moves the bonus light 2 spaces. Then when the ball ends the bonus isn't calculating correctly. I can see the bonus unit on the playfield when the drop target is hit fires the coil twice to move the bonus unit. I'm not sure why this is happening. If I can get the bonus and scoring straightened out this game will be fixed! Any help would be greatly appreciated.

#12 1 year ago

Can you post a snippet of the schematic that contains the C,D, &, E relay circuits?

#13 1 year ago
Quoted from pinballdaveh:

Can you post a snippet of the schematic that contains the C,D, &, E relay circuits?

Vulcan CDE (resized).JPGVulcan CDE (resized).JPG

I'd ask too, which relay is firing to give the 100 pts and multiple bonus - D or E? Should be D until the rollovers have been rolled over, tripping 1B-5B. If E is firing, then is that bank holding 1B-6B resetting?

Regarding the 100 pts, there's a Motor 2B switch in the upper right of the schematic snippet above that might be opening early, or not closing at all, so D or E isn't staying turned on long enough to give you the 500 pts.

#14 1 year ago

This is another part of the circuit that might be of interest:

Vulcan add bonus circuit (resized).JPGVulcan add bonus circuit (resized).JPG

And the score motor sequence chart:

Vulcan motor sequence (resized).JPGVulcan motor sequence (resized).JPG

If D is firing when you hit the drops (not E) and you're still getting 2 bonus instead of 1, any of those 4 Score motor switches could allow a second pulse from Motor 1A to get through to the Add "Bonus" Unit coil if they were stuck closed.

If you were able to tell which of the 5 pulses from Motor 1A is getting through, that might help you determine which switch to look at. The first (of 5) pulses from Motor 1A should always get through once the D relay is energized. Each of those motor switches blocks one of the remaining 4 pulses from Motor 1A. According to the motor sequence chart, the Motor 2C switch opens to block the 2nd pulse, Motor 4B opens to block the 3rd pulse, Motor 1B opens to block the 4th pulse, and 4C opens to block the 5th pulse.

The E switch allows the second pulse through, or second and third pulses if you're in 3 ball mode. If that E switch were closed all the time, that would give you 2 bonus pulses also.

#15 1 year ago
Quoted from paulace:

[quoted image]
I'd ask too, which relay is firing to give the 100 pts and multiple bonus - D or E? Should be D until the rollovers have been rolled over, tripping 1B-5B. If E is firing, then is that bank holding 1B-6B resetting?

Regarding the 100 pts, there's a Motor 2B switch in the upper right of the schematic snippet above that might be opening early, or not closing at all, so D or E isn't staying turned on long enough to give you the 500 pts.

D is firing and I'm getting 100 pts. And 2 movements on the bonus unit.

I checked 2B on the score motor, there are two switches normally closed. I cleaned both contacts and both seem adjusted correctly. And I'm still getting the same thing as above.

#16 1 year ago

IF you watch D - is it staying pulled in for an entire 1/3 score motor cycle, and then releasing?

#17 1 year ago
Quoted from paulace:

IF you watch D - is it staying pulled in for an entire 1/3 score motor cycle, and then releasing?

Yes it seems to be pulling in for the entire 1/3 rotation

#18 1 year ago

Well, here's the circuit (in red) that should give you 500 pts. every time D is energized....not much to it: Motor 1A switch which should open and close 5 times when the score motor turns 1/3 of a revolution, and the n/o D switch which should be closed when D is energized.

Vulcan 100 relay (resized).JPGVulcan 100 relay (resized).JPG

If you jumper the D switch (YEL-BL-RED and OR-BLK), then trigger the D relay, do you get 500 points?

#19 1 year ago
Quoted from paulace:

Well, here's the circuit (in red) that should give you 500 pts. every time D is energized....not much to it: Motor 1A switch which should open and close 5 times when the score motor turns 1/3 of a revolution, and the n/o D switch which should be closed when D is energized.
[quoted image]
If you jumper the D switch (YEL-BL-RED and OR-BLK), then trigger the D relay, do you get 500 points?

I have been going through the switches on the score motor. On 1B on the score motor the outer most switch of the three seems to control the score and bonus. It has an orange,black wire on one side and a red/white and a blue jumper on the other side, the blue jumper goes to a switch in 2C.

Anyway, I'm now getting 500 pts, but 4 pulses on the bonus unit.

#20 1 year ago

According to this, there should only be 2 normally-closed switches at Motor 1B.

Vulcan score motor switches (resized).JPGVulcan score motor switches (resized).JPG

Neither look like they have the wire colors you're describing. Are you sure you're looking at Motor 1B?
Vulcan 1B 1 (resized).JPGVulcan 1B 1 (resized).JPGVulcan 1B 2 (resized).JPGVulcan 1B 2 (resized).JPG

Did you understand post #14?

#21 1 year ago
Quoted from paulace:

According to this, there should only be 2 normally-closed switches at Motor 1B.
[quoted image]
Neither look like they have the wire colors you're describing. Are you sure you're looking at Motor 1B?[quoted image][quoted image]

I'm sorry it's 1A I was talking about

#22 1 year ago

Ah, that makes more sense. So your Motor 1A switch was probably not opening/closing correctly, and now it is, so you're getting the 500 pts when D energizes.

The circuit snippet in post #14 is what determines how many bonuses you get when D energizes. Do you understand how that circuit works?

#23 1 year ago
Quoted from paulace:

Ah, that makes more sense. So your Motor 1A switch was probably not opening/closing correctly, and now it is, so you're getting the 500 pts when D energizes.
The circuit snippet in post #14 is what determines how many bonuses you get when D energizes. Do you understand how that circuit works?

I think I understand post 14. And I will continue to check the other score motor switches.

I did something, not sure what but I get nothing from the drop switches now. I can activate stuff at D and E though, but not through the switches.

I greatly appreciate the help. This is my first attempt at fixing an EM, so I'm trying to learn and understand the wiring schematic but getting frustrated.

#24 1 year ago

You have to be patient, and be careful when you're in there bending and cleaning switches. It's easy to bump something and cause a problem.

So do any of your drop targets do anything now? Green or white?

#25 1 year ago
Quoted from paulace:

You have to be patient, and be careful when you're in there bending and cleaning switches. It's easy to bump something and cause a problem.
So do any of your drop targets do anything now? Green or white?

No

#26 1 year ago

The common wire on the drop switches is yellow/purple, but I haven't found it on the schematic. I'm guessing the problem it's related to that wire.

#27 1 year ago

OK, here's the circuit that should let your drop target switches fire the D relay. I erased all the non-relevant stuff.

Vulcan drop targets (resized).JPGVulcan drop targets (resized).JPG

Closing any of those drop target switches should fire the D relay, but that's assuming:

1) All the wires are connected as they're supposed to be

2) the normally-closed switches Motor 1C and E (arrows) are actually closed and conducting.

3) the switches labeled 1B thru 5B are conducting. (It would be odd for them ALL to be bad, so I'm thinking that's not your problem. Besides, the green drops should work without even involving those switches.)

So I would look carefully at the wiring through the drop targets and make sure there aren't any wires that have popped off. Then check those 2 switches and see if they're actually closed.

#28 1 year ago
Quoted from paulace:

OK, here's the circuit that should let your drop target switches fire the D relay. I erased all the non-relevant stuff.
[quoted image]
Closing any of those drop target switches should fire the D relay, but that's assuming:
1) All the wires are connected as they're supposed to be
2) the normally-closed switches Motor 1C and E (arrows) are actually closed and conducting.
So I would look carefully at the wiring through the drop targets and make sure there aren't any wires that have popped off. Then check those 2 switches and see if they're actually closed.

Ok found that problem it was the switch in 1C with the yellow/purple wire. So I'm back to 500 pts and 4 pulses on the bonus unit. So now I need to go through those other switches on the score motor you mentioned in post 14.

#29 1 year ago

Yes. See - isn't this fun?

#30 1 year ago

Yeah, it's good when I find the problem. But I hate messing with the score motor, everything is so hard to get to. And yes I am trying to be patient and careful

#31 1 year ago

I don't think anybody (except me and possibly DaMoib and @MarkG) enjoys picking apart a score motor, but those switches are all so important, that sometimes you just have to get in there....carefully. They all need to work!

I'm off to bed for the night - I'll check in in the morning before I go to work. I'll be happy to explain that circuit in post #14 tomorrow if you need me to.

Good luck!

#32 1 year ago

Thanks paulace for all your help!

I went through the switches pointed out in post 14 but I'm still getting the same result, 500 pts and 4 pulses on the bonus unit. At one point it went back to giving me 100 pts and 2 pulses on the bonus unit. I went back to the switches on 2B cleaned and adjusted again, then I was back to 500 pts and 4 pulses. It was getting late so I will have to wait until I get home from work tomorrow to continue.

So why when it was scoring 100 pts was the bonus unit was pulsing 2 times and then when it scores 500 pts it pulse 4 times?

The hard part is the switches can look like they are adjusted correctly and touching but they don't work. So it could still be some of those switches from post 14 and maybe they still aren't working.

#33 1 year ago
Quoted from ita47:

The hard part is the switches can look like they are adjusted correctly and touching but they don't work

For a switch to work 3 things are necessary:
1) When open, there should be a small space between the contact points (duh)
2) When closing, the long blade's contact point should push the short blade's contact point enough to move the short blade
3) The contact points should be clean, which they usually will be if #2 is happening

#34 1 year ago

Is your machine set to 5-ball play? Make sure it's set that way, and then look at this drawing - it's the add bonus part of the schematic simplified a bit. I left out some F relay and Green Drop target switches that complicate things. But for looking just at the D (and E) relay, this should work.

Vulcan add bonus simplified (resized).jpgVulcan add bonus simplified (resized).jpg

I don't know what you know and what you don't know, so I'll start at the beginning - plus, you never know who's gonna be reading this in the future, so don't be offended if I man-splain.

That Motor Sequence chart on the left is important because it tells you the timing of how switches open and close relative to each other on the score motor. The thick black lines indicate a change in switch state - not closed or open specifically, just a change in state from how they're drawn on the schematic. And Gottlieb schematics are usually drawn with the score motor in the home position (at zero degrees of rotation on the chart), single-player game started, machine unplugged.

So, for example, the Motor 1A switch is drawn as normally-open. That means that as the score motor rotates, and you follow the line on the chart for the Motor 1A switch, every time you see a black line, the 1A switch is changing state - that is, in this case, closing.

The other score motor switches - 2C, 4B, 1B and 4C - are all drawn as normally-closed. That means that they start as closed, and as the score motor rotates, and you trace their line from left to right, every time you hit a black line, the switch will open. It's the reverse of the Motor 1A switch on the chart.

So we're trying to figure out how many times a 25V pulse can get through the circuit to the "Add Bonus Unit" coil. Every pulse that makes it through that gauntlet of switches will fire that coil, and increase your "Add Bonus Unit" stepper one time for 1 bonus position.

*********************

The whole process starts when you hit a drop target and the D relay energizes. This closes the D switch on the drawing. D shouldn't relax until the end of a score motor cycle when a Motor 2B switch opens.

There is a switch on D that starts the score motor turning.

Once the score motor starts to turn, the Motor 1A switch is going to open and close 5 times. Think of it as providing 5 voltage pulses...so how many of those voltage pulses will get through to fire the "Add Bonus Unit" coil?

The 1st pulse from Motor 1A gets all the way through to the "Add Bonus Unit" coil because none of the 4 motor switch in series have opened yet and the D switch is closed...so 1 pulse. Your bonus is increased by 1K.

The 2nd pulse from Motor 1A occurs at the same time as switch Motor 2C (look at the chart) is opening. That blocks the 2nd pulse....doesn't get through.

The 3rd pulse from Motor 1A occurs at the same time as switch Motor 4B is opening. That blocks the 3rd pulse.

The 4th pulse from Motor 1A occurs at the same time as switch Motor 1B is opening. That blocks the 4th pulse.

And finally, the 5th pulse from Motor 1A occurs at the same time as switch Motor 4C is opening. That blocks the 5th pulse.

So the effect is that only 1 pulse from Motor 1A gets through each time you hit a drop and the D relay fires. You should only get one bonus increase.

**************************

Now look at how relay E changes things. When rollover switches are hit, and any of relays 1B thru 5B are tripped, Relay E is fired when you hit a drop target tied to that relay instead of Relay D. So picture the drawing above with the D switch open and the E switch closed. E also starts the score motor turning, but this time the 1st pulse from 1A gets through to the Add Bonus Unit coil, AND the 2nd pulse gets through because the closed E switch gives it a path around the open Motor 2C switch. The remaining 3 pulses from 1A are still blocked, so the result is 2 pulses to the Add Bonus Unit coil - an increase of 2 bonus. That's why the E relay is labeled "500 POINT AND ADD 2 OR 3 BONUS RELAY".

**************************

So, anyway, that's the long version of how the D relay is supposed to add bonus - 1 at a time. If yours is adding more than 1 bonus at a time, then more of those Motor 1A pulses are getting through than should be getting there.

Putting the machine on 3-ball changes some things. So make sure your machine is on 5-ball, while we try to troubleshoot it.

I might start by blocking those 4 motor switches in series (put a strip of paper or something between the contacts), then firing the D relay and seeing if any bonus is added. There shouldn't be.

Also, as you've probably noticed, you can't always assume that a switch is conducting electrically just because it's closing visually. I had a switch that I had cleaned with a Dremel tool brush and alcohol - both contacts were so shiny and clean that I could see my handsome face reflected back in them. But I had cleared the playfield and a drop of clear fell onto one of the contacts. You couldn't see it, and the contacts were definitely touching, but one was coated with clear...so, no electrical contact. That's where a jumper was useful in troubleshooting. Or sometimes contacts are loose in the leaf and aren't making good electrical contact.

Sorry about the long post!

#35 1 year ago

By the way, your question in post #32 is a good one - especially if what you observed is repeatable and consistent. I don't have an answer for that question right now, but I notice that even though the scoring and bonus-adding circuits are separate, they do share the same Motor 1A switch.

Have you checked that switch? Made sure the screws in the switch stack are tight? It should have OR-BLK and RED+WH wires.

If you want a good primer on Gottlieb wire colors, look here - MarkG did a nice one:

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/gottlieb-wire-color-trivia

#36 1 year ago

Great write up! That is very helpful in understanding how this thing works.
I also wanted to let you know it maybe several days before I get to work on this again. My son is in the Air Force and came home tonight on leave until Sunday, so I will be spending time with him until he leaves. I will post back when I get a chance to go through the switches on the score motor. Thanks again guys for all the help!

1 week later
#37 1 year ago
Quoted from paulace:

By the way, your question in post #32 is a good one - especially if what you observed is repeatable and consistent. I don't have an answer for that question right now, but I notice that even though the scoring and bonus-adding circuits are separate, they do share the same Motor 1A switch.
Have you checked that switch? Made sure the screws in the switch stack are tight? It should have OR-BLK and RED+WH wires.
If you want a good primer on Gottlieb wire colors, look here - MarkG did a nice one:
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/gottlieb-wire-color-trivia

Sorry for the delay, my son was home and I was spending time with him and just had time today to get back on this project. I'm trying to get this working so I can take it to the Texas Pinball Festival.

I have checked the switch 2B several times, it still doesn't work consistently I don't know what else to do to it. By the way the wire colors to that switch appear to be WH-BLK and WH-RED.

I have also gone through the other switches in 2C, 4B, 1B, 4C. They are closed and do open on their rotation of the score motor. So I don't understand why the four pulses are getting through.

#38 1 year ago
Quoted from ita47:

Sorry for the delay, my son was home and I was spending time with him and just had time today to get back on this project. I'm trying to get this working so I can take it to the Texas Pinball Festival.
I have checked the switch 2B several times, it still doesn't work consistently I don't know what else to do to it. By the way the wire colors to that switch appear to be WH-BLK and WH-RED.
I have also gone through the other switches in 2C, 4B, 1B, 4C. They are closed and do open on their rotation of the score motor. So I don't understand why the four pulses are getting through.

If you are having intermittent contact on a properly adjusted switch, check the contacts on the switch. I've had them come loose and make intermittent contact.

#39 1 year ago

The contacts seem tight.

#40 1 year ago

For a switch to work 3 things are necessary:
1) When open, there should be a small space between the contact points (duh)
2) When closing, the long blade's contact point should push the short blade's contact point enough to move the short blade
3) The contact points should be clean, which they usually will be if #2 is happening

#41 1 year ago

There are only 2 electrical paths for a pulse to get to the Add Bonus Unit coil - one is through the D switch and the other is through the E switch (see post #34). I might try blocking the E switch (paper between the contacts) and see if that changes anything. If not, try blocking the D switch and see what happens. At least figure out which path the extra pulses are coming through.

#42 1 year ago
Quoted from paulace:

There are only 2 electrical paths for a pulse to get to the Add Bonus Unit coil - one is through the D switch and the other is through the E switch (see post #34). I might try blocking the E switch (paper between the contacts) and see if that changes anything. If not, try blocking the D switch and see what happens. At least figure out which path the extra pulses are coming through.

The pulse is going through D, when I put a piece of paper in between the switch the bonus doesn't advance at all, but i do get 500 pts. E isn't doing anything at this point when a drop target is hit.

#43 1 year ago

Can you block these 2 circled switches and see if that changes anything?

Vul (resized).JPGVul (resized).JPG
#44 1 year ago

Can you block these 2 circled switches and see if that changes anything?

#45 1 year ago
Quoted from paulace:

Can you block these 2 circled switches and see if that changes anything?[quoted image]

Blocking E & F didn't change anything, still four pulses on the bonus.

#46 1 year ago

Well, those pulses are definitely coming through the D switch, so they've got to be coming through that series of 4 motor switches, unless I'm not seeing something.

Do you have a 24V light bulb tester?

#47 1 year ago

Well I found an in soldered yellow-purple wire on the green drops, it was through the hole in the switch but not soldered. I resoldered it and then I had no bonus pulses. I started checking the switches motor switches again and it started working occasionally. I kept messing with the scoring motor it and it started working. I'm still not sure exactly which switch was the problem but right now it seems consistent. Yeah!!!

Paulace, THANK YOU so much for all your help and staying with me. I couldn't have got this without your help. Thank you to everyone else that helped as well I truly appreciate it!

I still have a few things to keep working on like the roll over relay switches. They are not consistent. I have a pop bumper skirt that sticks and a couple of other things, but I'm about 85-90 percent there. I hope to have some more time tomorrow. I am excited have the bonus fixed, I just hope it continues.

#48 1 year ago

That's great that you found something that's helped! I was leaning towards a short somewhere and was going to have you start probing around with the bulb tester and see how many pulses you had where. Hope you have it going 100 percent in time for the show!

Promoted items from Pinside Marketplace and Pinside Shops!
From: $ 3.00
Cabinet - Other
Space Coast Pinball
 
Hey modders!
Your shop name here

Reply

Wanna join the discussion? Please sign in to reply to this topic.

Hey there! Welcome to Pinside!

Donate to Pinside

Great to see you're enjoying Pinside! Did you know Pinside is able to run without any 3rd-party banners or ads, thanks to the support from our visitors? Please consider a donation to Pinside and get anext to your username to show for it! Or better yet, subscribe to Pinside+!


This page was printed from https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/gottlieb-vulcan-won-t-advance-to-ball-two and we tried optimising it for printing. Some page elements may have been deliberately hidden.

Scan the QR code on the left to jump to the URL this document was printed from.