(Topic ID: 288241)

Gottlieb Volley tens reel reset and scoring issues


By wawhite92025

7 days ago



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  • 66 posts
  • 9 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 5 days ago by DaMoib
  • Topic is favorited by 3 Pinsiders

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WillTarget (resized).jpg
WillTarget (resized).jpg
Playfield after cleaning & mylar installed around pops.png
lower underside of playfield.png
upper entire playfield.png
trough switch pair.png
green targets area.png
flipper area.png
entire lower portion of playfield.png
drop targets relay bank.png
Blue target area.png
back side of green targets.png
A B C D relays.png
SwitchDog (resized).jpg
VolleyTargetBankReset (resized).jpg
IMG_2168 (resized).jpeg

There are 66 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 2.
#1 7 days ago

I have a 1976 Gottlieb Volley that I have thoroughly cleaned and checked all the switches and relays. All the factory wiring is intact. I have the schematic and attempted to solve the problems with the game before I resorted to making this post. Most EM issues I can solve but two things that are happening in this game have got me stumped.
1) The tens reel operates correctly when 10 points are scored (there are 9 ten points switches on the playfield), either from the switches or by actuating the ten point relay by hand. All the reels will reset to zero, except the tens...the coil is stuck on after it makes one pull. But I know the 0-9 switches are set correctly and the reel works correctly once the reel is at zero, so the contact (EOS switch) that shuts off the coil is working. Some switch or path that allows the other 3 reels to reset is obviously not working for the tens reel. Of course when the ten is locked (energized) the score motor keeps turning. If I power on & off the game, then the coil releases and the reel increments each step with each power cycle until zero and then it stops energizing the coil. What is probably causing the tens coil not to go to zero when all the other coils do? I have cleaned and checked the operation of the switches for the zero, 1-8 position, and 9 and they are all correct, so it must be a signal from another source that is dropping out before the ten resets to zero? The AX relay gaps and switches are all clean and it appears to function correctly. If all the other reels (except tens) are at numbers besides zero they all reset to zero when the game is started.

2) Any time 100 points is scored the hundreds reel works correctly, but the ball count unit advances, so after 500 more points the game is over because each 100 points advances the ball count unit one step. I have studied the schematic until I'm dizzy and I cannot understand how the 100 points relay is moving the ball count unit. Volley seems a bit different from most wedgeheads that I have worked on because it has 2 switches on the trough instead of the usual 1 switch that advances the ball count unit. As I read from the schematic the extra trough switch is to accommodate the differences between the game set on 5 or 3 ball play, but I cannot see how the 100 relay is causing current to go to the ball count solenoid. This problem of 100 points advancing the ball count occurs in either 3 or 5 ball setting, based on the connector under the playfield. To add to this situation, when the trough switches close the 100 point relay is activated and the 100 reel advances one step. So this issue with the 100 points and the ball count unit is a two-way street.

If anyone has encountered similar issues and knows where the faults are I sure would appreciate your help and knowledge. The sticking 10s coil is probably common to any 70s Gottlieb, but the 100 points causing the ball count to move may be something unique to Volley? All the score motor switches are clean, gapped and open-close as they should. I especially made sure the 1A switches are good. I can take and attach photos as required.
Thank you.

Will

#2 7 days ago
Quoted from wawhite92025:

All the reels will reset to zero, except the tens...the coil is stuck on after it makes one pull.

What is the 00-90 unit doing then?

#3 7 days ago

Hi Will,
For problem #1, I wonder if the switch on the AX relay that affects the 10's resetting is stuck closed for some reason. The first snippet is the reset circuit....just 3 switches involved, and the Motor 1A switch is common to all the reels, so it's probably working correctly. That leaves the "10'S UNIT RUNOUT" switch that should open when the score reel gets to zero, and the AX switch that should open when the reset is complete. I wonder if the AX switch were always closed, if you'd have the score reel just lock on until it got to zero, which would open the runout switch to break the circuit.
volley problem (resized).JPG

The EOS switch on the score reel doesn't come into play during the reset - only when the 10 pt relay (N) is involved in scoring. It breaks the current to the N relay, but the N relay isn't involved in the reset circuit. And since your N relay isn't locking on, it seems to be working correctly. While in the reset process, with the 10pt score reel solenoid locked on, is the N relay also locked on?
volley problem 2 (resized).JPG

#4 7 days ago

Sounds like you have a short circuit somewhere. Check the Jones plugs for stray wire strands and also the 10's unit switches. I would check the GR+RED wire specifically.

Image 3 (resized).png
#5 7 days ago

Will, during the reset, when your 10 score reel solenoid is locked on, is your N relay also locked on?

#6 7 days ago

Hi woz - would it make more sense for the RED-BLK wire on the other side of the AX switch to be the short location since the reel only locks on during reset?
My thought was that if the GR+RED wire were shorted, the reel would lock on every time the reel wasn't at zero during play and the 10's runout switch closed.

#7 7 days ago
Quoted from paulace:

Hi woz - would it make more sense for the RED-BLK wire on the other side of the AX switch to be the short location since the reel only locks on during reset?
My thought was that if the GR-RED wire were shorted, the reel would lock on every time the reel wasn't at zero and the 10's runout switch closed.

Hmm, good point you are correct - yes it would lock on when non-zero. But if the RED-BLK was shorted that would affect the other score reels too. This is an interesting problem!

#8 7 days ago

Wow, you guys are quick, let me get to work on studying your info and checking stuff on the game....I just watched the NASA channel.. Woo hoo, Perseverance is safely on Mars.

Thanks for your help. Let me start checking and get back.

One thing I can say is the 00-90 unit is working correctly...I have got a lot of experience rebuilding those crazy units and this one works correctly including the on-off switch in the middle of the unit.

#9 7 days ago

Hey woz, yeah, you're right - the other reels would be affected. I wonder if something is locking the N relay on during reset. But I can't see what that would be - the N relay doesn't look like it should be involved in the reset.

#10 7 days ago

I've taken my laptop into the room with the Volley so I can read your help and reply back from what I find on the game. Cell phone screen too small for my old eyes.

#11 7 days ago
Quoted from paulace:

Hi Will,
For problem #1, I wonder if the switch on the AX relay that affects the 10's resetting is stuck closed for some reason. The first snippet is the reset circuit....just 3 switches involved, and the Motor 1A switch is common to all the reels, so it's probably working correctly. That leaves the "10'S UNIT RUNOUT" switch that should open when the score reel gets to zero, and the AX switch that should open when the reset is complete. I wonder if the AX switch were always closed, if you'd have the score reel just lock on until it got to zero, which would open the runout switch to break the circuit.
[quoted image]
The EOS switch on the score reel doesn't come into play during the reset - only when the 10 pt relay (N) is involved in scoring. It breaks the current to the N relay, but the N relay isn't involved in the reset circuit. And since your N relay isn't locking on, it seems to be working correctly. While in the reset process, with the 10pt score reel solenoid locked on, is the N relay also locked on?
[quoted image]

The N relay does not lock on when the tens coil is stuck energized. The AX relay is activated(locked) because the tens has not reached zero, and thus the motor is turning. If I release the AX unit then the tens coil releases and the motor stops. All the switches on the AX are clean and properly gaped and close or open correctly.

#12 7 days ago
Quoted from woz:

Sounds like you have a short circuit somewhere. Check the Jones plugs for stray wire strands and also the 10's unit switches. I would check the GR+RED wire specifically.[quoted image]

I'm rechecking all the wires and connections. I've heard and seen problems with shorts so I always use a magnifying lens to look closely for stray wires and the switch ends touching. I'll check again.
Thanks

#13 7 days ago

Guys, I am checking an anomaly in three leaf switches in the tens unit. I am taking that stack apart because it looks like two of the leaves are touching that should not be touching. Examined it with my magnifying lens and I'm sure that it is not put together quite right.....
I'll get back.

#14 7 days ago

The two bottom leaf switches in the 10s unit were in the same slot in the plastic "ladder" that moves them, but the switches were open and closed when they were supposed to, but I took the switch apart and split the two leaves apart so they are each in a separate slot, but unfortunately that did not cure any of the issues. As a test I have unplugged the 00-90 unit to see if it was somehow the problem, but that made no change.
I have gone round around in the game checking all the wires and switches and I'm sure there are no shorts are points in the wrong position (open when supposed to be closed or the opposite). I though maybe the switches on motor 2B might be an issue so I cleaned and checked them again.
I also checked the three switches on the back of the ball count unit and they are doing what they should and no wires are shorted there.

#15 7 days ago

Odd thing about Volley: there is no plug to enable or disable the match feature. First Gottlieb I've seen that is missing that plug/option.
Also my game has no coin chutes or mechs. Game is set on free play via the replay unit 0 position being shorted...what I do on all my games.

#16 7 days ago

Please post a photo of the 10's unit switch stack.

Looking at the schematic, if there is a short between the 10's runout and 10's reset switch you may get the 10's coil locked on if the other reels are at zero position. I'm not sure of the switch stackup on the score reel but if those are adjacent it may be worth another check.

Edit: According to this site http://www.pinballaustralia.com/gotreel.htm the runout and reset switches are adjacent.
Image 4 (resized).png

#17 7 days ago

Had the same problem on my Volley, took me longer than I care to admit to find the problem but it was with the AX relay switches. Can't remember which one specific but it was bent slightly off. I would check there.

#18 7 days ago

Does the "U" shaped jumper on the back of the AX switch stack look intact - all four switches are connected to the RED-BLK wire? All other solder tabs have good spacing and there is no shorting?

Also, if you block the 10's unit runout switch with a piece of paper, the 10's coil does not actuate at all during reset? How about if you block the AX switch for the 10's reel (the one with the GR+RED wire)?

IMG_2165 (resized).jpeg
#19 7 days ago

I'm leaning toward a problem with the AX relay as well - just because the clearances are so small between all the switch contacts and tabs on those things. I'd pull that relay out as far as you can, take out your magnifying glass, and make sure everything on the AX relay is working correctly with nothing touching that shouldn't be...switch leafs, switch tabs, screws. Tighten the stack screws first too, while you're in there.

#20 7 days ago

Regarding problem 2 - re-gap those trough switches, they're located right over the chime unit... maybe the vibration from the chime solenoid banging away is causing the trough switch(es) to close.

#21 7 days ago

Thanks guys. I'm going to have a look at these items and get back. Is there a way to get notifications when responses are added to forum posts?
Also I'll take and upload a photo of the tens unit switch stack.

#22 7 days ago

I have a hunch that there is something tying both these issues together (literally!).

Have you just got the game? If so, did it function correctly when you got it?

Also, please post a pic of the 3-5 ball adj plug. Thanks.

#23 7 days ago
Quoted from woz:

Please post a photo of the 10's unit switch stack.
Looking at the schematic, if there is a short between the 10's runout and 10's reset switch you may get the 10's coil locked on if the other reels are at zero position. I'm not sure of the switch stackup on the score reel but if those are adjacent it may be worth another check.
Edit: According to this site http://www.pinballaustralia.com/gotreel.htm the runout and reset switches are adjacent.
[quoted image]

Photos of TENS reel switch stack. Reading switches from top to bottom (as oriented in my photos) 0 zero position open, open, closed. 1-8 position open, closed open. 9th position closed, closed, open

Kinda hard to take good closeups but the pictures should show the switches are in the correct positions as the reel turns. When you hover on images the caption appears and shows which position the reel is in. Picts 1 & 2 are in 1-8 position, 3rd pict is 9 score reel position, 4th pict is zero position1 -8 switch positions (resized).png .switches in 1-8 reel position (resized).pngReel in 9th position (resized).pngSwitch stack in zero position (resized).png

#24 7 days ago
Quoted from DaMoib:

Does the "U" shaped jumper on the back of the AX switch stack look intact - all four switches are connected to the RED-BLK wire? All other solder tabs have good spacing and there is no shorting?
Also, if you block the 10's unit runout switch with a piece of paper, the 10's coil does not actuate at all during reset? How about if you block the AX switch for the 10's reel (the one with the GR+RED wire)?
[quoted image]

Great suggestions....there sure is a lot of solder globbed on the switch tabs on the AX, but in my game none of the tabs were touching and the U shaped connector is OK, no shorts or stray wire there. I put paper between the runout reel switches and paper between the green-red wire switch on the AX and the reel will not move when the game is started (the reel coil is not energized) , so the score motor continues to run. If I manually unlatch the AX then the score motor stops.

#25 7 days ago
Quoted from DaMoib:

Regarding problem 2 - re-gap those trough switches, they're located right over the chime unit... maybe the vibration from the chime solenoid banging away is causing the trough switch(es) to close.

The gaps in the two trough switches are good. When the ball rolls over the wire it closes both switches, but there is no way the chimes solenoids could close those switches, plus there is no chime when the ball is rolling from the kickout to the shooter lane. But interesting suggestion. Thanks.

#26 7 days ago
Quoted from woz:

I have a hunch that there is something tying both these issues together (literally!).
Have you just got the game? If so, did it function correctly when you got it?
Also, please post a pic of the 3-5 ball adj plug. Thanks.

The game did not function when I got it, other than light up. The owner had received it as a gift from a friends wife after the friend had died. I think the game had been sitting for many years, who knows when it last worked, but it had decent rubber rings and was pretty clean. Since I got it I took everything off the playfield, cleaned it all, good coat of wax and put it back together. Also went round and round looking at, cleaning, adjusting all the switches and relays. Mysteriously twice the game has not actuated the 100s reel from the trough switches and the 100s has not caused the ball played unit to move and I have been able to test all the playfield switches, including the 15 drop targets and the switches all work and the reels all moved correctly...but then at end of that game the tens would not complete the zero reset and the good old trough switches again were causing the 100s to move. As soon as you score 500 points the game is over because each 100 points moves the balls played unit one step.

I have attached two photos of the 3-5 ball adjustment plug.
Thanks for your help.

3-5 ball adjustment plugged in 5 ball position (resized).png3-5 ball adjustment unplugged (resized).png
#27 7 days ago
Quoted from morseplace:

Had the same problem on my Volley, took me longer than I care to admit to find the problem but it was with the AX relay switches. Can't remember which one specific but it was bent slightly off. I would check there.

Thanks. I have carefully examined my AX relay and all the switches are good, nothing bent, and the wires are good, no shorting between any of the wires or switch tabs. On start up the relay functions and causes all the reels to reset, except for the Tens that locks up after making one step toward zero. If I put the tens in the zero position then the game will fully start, so is sure seems the AX is working correctly.

#28 7 days ago

Good night guys, tomorrow is another day. Thanks for the help. The power has not gone out where I live, so I don't have to set fire to the game to keep warm, ha ha.

#29 6 days ago

It's hard to tell from the photos, but in the zero position, is that lower switch (closest to the metal frame) in the back closing?

#30 6 days ago
Quoted from wawhite92025:

The gaps in the two trough switches are good. When the ball rolls over the wire it closes both switches, but there is no way the chimes solenoids could close those switches, plus there is no chime when the ball is rolling from the kickout to the shooter lane. But interesting suggestion. Thanks.

On issue 2:
If the high current trough switch is gapped too closely and closes due to vibration (or there is a short) WHEN the score motor is turning (i.e. when scoring 500 points), the ball count will advance.

One quick test (with the playfield down and glass off) - after the ball has kicked into the shooter lane, block the high current trough switch with a piece of paper. Drop a target by hand, does the ball advance during the scoring of the 500 pts?

Also try it with the trough switch unblocked and the 100 point chime solenoid lead disconnected. Drop a target, does ball count advance?

One last test - with the trough switch unblocked and the 100 point chime solenoid lead disconnected. Drop a target and, while the 500 points are scoring, pound on the top side of the playfield near the apron where the trough switch is located... does the ball count advance?

It is important to do these tests with the playfield down - the forces on the trough switch are different and, if something is marginal, the issue may only happen in this position.

VolleyAddBallCount (resized).jpg
#31 6 days ago

For problem #2, as another test in addition to those DaMoib suggested, would it be helpful to fire the outer pop bumpers? They should give you 100 pts without making the score motor turn. That might tell you whether the trough switch/score motor is involved or not.

I'm curious too whether that 100pt/ball count problem happens with the playfield raised. We've all seen some shorts that happen when the pf is dropped and some wires get pinched.

Lots of test...good luck!

#32 6 days ago

Sorry, my mistake, a noisy trough switch will advance the ball count unit when the score motor is *stationary*. Both those motor switches are NC switches.

Just pound on the playfield after the game starts, no blocking switches, no dropping targets, no disconnecting chimes. Does the ball unit advance?

#33 6 days ago

Does scoring 500 cause a 5 ball advance?

I think both problems have short written all over them.

#34 6 days ago

For the 10pt reset issue, have you tried some continuity testing for the score reel coil? Clearly you're getting continuity from GR-RED to the other side of the circuit (RED-WH?). Put a meter on those two and you can start touching switches to see what stops it.

Is this game one that has two switches on the score reel frame opposite the 0/1-8/9 switches?

#35 6 days ago
Quoted from currieddog:

Does scoring 500 cause a 5 ball advance?
I think both problems have short written all over them.

Yeah, I'm slowly coming around to that conclusion also (much to Will's frustration, I'm sure). I missed this in his original issue 2 problem statement - "To add to this situation, when the trough switches close the 100 point relay is activated and the 100 reel advances one step. So this issue with the 100 points and the ball count unit is a two-way street."

Might it help to understand which of the two trough switches scores the points?

#36 6 days ago
Quoted from paulace:

It's hard to tell from the photos, but in the zero position, is that lower switch (closest to the metal frame) in the back closing?

Yes it is closing. There are two sets of contacts for the zero position and both are closed. I tested it with my meter for continuity and it is good. In the 1 through 9 positions when the switch is open there is no continuity.

#37 6 days ago

Guys, I so appreciate your help. I just discovered that when the playfield is down the 100 point/ball advance unit problem happens, but with it up for testing it is not happening and the scoring and ball advance work correctly. I'm now looking for what is different between up and down playfield. The trough switches don't appear to be affected and I have the chimes disconnected while testing, so that system is out of the mix.

I'm investigating what changes must be happening in the playfield.

Also, I know when all the targets are down and the ball leaves the playfield the targets are supposed to reset, but mine do not unless I activate the Q target reset relay by hand. What relay is supposed to tell the target reset relay to activate when all the targets are down?

I'll report back when I find what is happening under the playfield between up and down position

#38 6 days ago
Quoted from currieddog:

Does scoring 500 cause a 5 ball advance?
I think both problems have short written all over them.

Yes, 500 move the score reel and advances the ball play unit. But now I'm researching why this does not happen at the moment when the playfield is raised, but it was happening with the playfield raised,, which is how I been testing to see what is causing the 100/ball advance problem.

#39 6 days ago

When all targets are down, the targets should reset immediately (no ball drain is required).

There is a switch on the front of each target bank, the three switches in series trigger Q.

I'll get a pic...

IMG_2168 (resized).jpeg
#40 6 days ago

Hey Will - look carefully around the edges of the underside of the playfield for anything that will touch any metal or wires that might get pinched.

Also, I don't know what the underside of this playfield looks like, but is there a group of latching relays mounted to the underside? If so, they're usually held in place by a couple wingnuts on either side of the bracket that holds the relays. If all that's there on this machine, is the relay bracket all the way into its slotted holders and are the wingnuts that hold it there tight?

#41 6 days ago

Man, DaMoib....your mech is clean!

#42 6 days ago

Paul,

That's because Volley is on the rotisserie and I JUST took them all apart and cleaned them this week! Bought myself a nice set of dental picks for the job...

#43 6 days ago

Target bank reset...

VolleyTargetBankReset (resized).jpg
#44 6 days ago
Quoted from wawhite92025:

Yes, 500 move the score reel and advances the ball play unit.

Not saying that this is remotely the problem but reading this reminded of a head scratcher I had on El Dorado. Weird and wacky things were happening and the schematic was not helping. Until I noticed someone had made their own switch dog for the score motor and put it in the wrong slot thus confusing the timing in the "computer". Something that can be easily checked visually. I don't have the schematics, but someone here can clarify the L or S slot for each switch stack.

#45 6 days ago

Here it is...

SwitchDog (resized).jpg
#46 6 days ago
Quoted from DaMoib:

When all targets are down, the targets should reset immediately (no ball drain is required).
There is a switch on the front of each target bank, the three switches in series trigger Q.
I'll get a pic...[quoted image]

CLEAN MACHINE. Wow. I had cleaned and adjusted the gaps in the all targets down switches but I will check them again.

Gravity at work some place...searching. I disconnected the trough switches from the game and they do not change position whether playfield is up or down, but sure enough something is changing between up and down. The target bank relays is firmly held in place with its two wing nuts so it does not move when the game is up or down. Also the A B C D relays are in position and do not appear to move and are not touching anything and the bundle of wires that go to the relays are not affected by playfield position, but obviously something is changing.

#47 6 days ago
Quoted from Seamlesswall:

Not saying that this is remotely the problem but reading this reminded of a head scratcher I had on El Dorado. Weird and wacky things were happening and the schematic was not helping. Until I noticed someone had made their own switch dog for the score motor and put it in the wrong slot thus confusing the timing in the "computer". Something that can be easily checked visually. I don't have the schematics, but someone here can clarify the L or S slot for each switch stack.

Good suggestion. All three of the switch stacks that use the S or L position forks are in the correct positions and the state of the switches: NO, NC. BB are correct. Actually now the game does play correctly with the playfield up, though the tens still won't reset to zero. I searching for what is changing with the playfield up or down.....gravity or something touching? Looking looking.
Thanks

#48 6 days ago
Quoted from DaMoib:

Target bank reset...
[quoted image]

I found one of the "all down" switches on the yellow targets was not making good contact. I fixed that and now when all targets are down then they all reset. Woo hoo, one problem fixed. Thank you.

#49 6 days ago

Great!

The wire bundles from the playfield to the head and motor board flex differently, depending on playfield position. With the playfield up, can you flex the cables manually and see if the 100 pt/ball count problem comes back?

#50 6 days ago
Quoted from DaMoib:

Great!
The wire bundles from the playfield to the head and motor board flex differently, depending on playfield position. With the playfield up, can you flex the cables manually and see if the 100 pt/ball count problem comes back?

I'll try that. The wire bundles from the playfield to the motor board and to the back box, and the cables that go from the motor board to the backbox are quite stiffly cabled together, so they don't move very much at all but I will look more closely at all of them. I did an experiment with just raising the playfield about three inches above the lockbar latch frame and the 100/ball count problem quits, but as soon as the playfield is level the problem starts. I did lay a towel between thed playfield and the latch bar and that had no effect. There is definitely no electric short between the playfield and cabinet as the only parts that contact the playfield and cabinet are wood. There is no playfield to cabinet grounding circuit in this game and fortunately no line voltage running to the coin door.

I'm checking the connection cables now.
Thanks

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