Quoted from pinhead52:"Some" folks high tap their game to get better play..
Better play sucks. We don't want better play on our games.
Quoted from D-Gottlieb:That occurred to me when I noticed it. Not unlike overclocking the computer.
You should have absolutely no issues whichever way you chose to run it. If you prefer the lower voltage, do that. If you prefer the higher voltage, run it that way.
Some games play better on high tap, other games it makes the game too easy. If you want a steeper playfield angle, then high tap may be the way to go. if you put in the orange dot gottlieb coils and high tap a pop-a-card it makes the game too easy.
-c
I connected it to normal and don't notice much of a difference except that the gate relay doesn't buzz as loudly. I did have a couple of odd things happen after the switchover, but cleaning some relay contacts seems to have fixed them. Could be that the higher voltage flowed across dirty contacts better, but being that it's only three more volts I doubt it.
3 volts is 10%. so if you want a 10% power boast, go with high tap. but frankly it is personal preference and dependent on the particular game. I use it sometimes, and other times not. it just depends.
All my games are on Normal Tap, but I usually run Orange Dot coils for Gottlieb Flippers to give the ball the extra zip back to the top of the Playfield.
It should be noted too I have never broken a Drop Target to date (period) and that is using Orange Dot Coils as well as Regular.
Ken
Quoted from D-Gottlieb:I connected it to normal and don't notice much of a difference except that the gate relay doesn't buzz as loudly.
Exactly. Hi-tap overstresses non-gameplay components. More voltage, more force, more heat, more wear. Shop the game properly with new coil sleeves in the gameplay related coils, clean and wax the playfield, install new rubber rings and a new pinball, clean switch contacts (don't forget the "tilt" and "game over" relays which the playfield voltage runs through) and if your line voltage is normal, the game should play fine.
I've been going over all the contacts as I get more familiar with this. After all, this is my first Pin. It is my intention to replace any worn parts with new ones and make the machine run as it should. Already I have cleaned, waxed, replaced sockets, flipper workings and bulbs and the game works better than 100% now that I have separated the pop bumper circuits. Next I plan on repainting the cabinet as it could use it badly.
Top Score has some long shots and no drops correct? If it is sluggish after your cleanup and rebuild try a slightly higher power flipper coils...might make nailing that spinner more fun.
Quoted from Wickerman2:Seems like I heard that PBR claims no extra wear or damage when hi-tap...some sort of wives tale.
Wives tale? Just common sense. More juice=more power=more stress and wear. Just like with a car engine. Getting more power out of a given design has a trade off; accelerated wear, and added stress on the working components of the engine.
Quoted from Wickerman2:Top Score has some long shots and no drops correct? If it is sluggish after your cleanup and rebuild try a slightly higher power flipper coils...might make nailing that spinner more fun.
Unless you have the game grossly overpitched, why would it be sluggish? Didn't the original designers know what they were doing?
Quoted from jrpinball:Unless you have the game grossly overpitched, why would it be sluggish? Didn't the original designers know what they were doing?
I was just giving him some ideas...since it seemed there was some question of needing high tap--not looking for a bar room internet brawl. And yes, a wives tale is my understanding...it literally is a miniscule difference in terms of "wearing out" coils etc. Meaning, you will NOT wear out anything any faster on high tap in your lifetime(what would wear out?? The slingshot rubbers?). That was from Steve at PBR...
Did the designers know what they were doing? Who knows? There are certainly titles that can be improved by extra power even after you've rebuilt everything, you may not prefer it but that doesn't at all void it as a reality. You can be a purist and try to get everything factory original...doesn't mean people that go a different direction are "wrong". How about a little inclusion? Peace and love! Can't we all just get along??! Or create yet another Sub Sub forum called "Factory Original EM Talk Only or ELSE!!!"...just spitballin
Wives tale?: If a pop bumper, flipper, or stepper plunger hits harder, you are going to get wear sooner. How much depends on how much the game is played. Coil stop wear as well as mushrooming plungers became more prevalent when games went DC and the hits were much harder. So it WILL happen on high tap sooner than it would on normal tap.
Quoted from CactusJack:So it WILL happen on high tap sooner than it would on normal tap.
Honestly, seems like this is a "purist" thing rather than boots on the ground reality. Things wear out eventually...even if a 10% increase in power made things wear out in direct correlation at 10%(which from my understanding it does not)...how many decades are we talking about? You have to replace a coil stop in 2042 instead of 2060 or whatever?? Come on.
I'm just giving you what the folks at PBR stated---wives tale...I thought they were the bible on this stuff...but as usual with the interweb, opinions abound!!
i've been doing high tap for 25 years. it has no effect on wear that i've seen. but i also don't have two exact games set up beside each other, one normal and one high. but 10% more voltage doesn't wear them out faster.
It really only matters if you're playing an AAB vs. a Replay game though. Or a 3" flipper game vs. a 2".
There, that ought to do it.
(I'll say the debate causes wear.)
Quoted from Wickerman2:I'm just giving you what the folks at PBR stated---wives tale...I thought they were the bible on this stuff...but as usual with the interweb, opinions abound!!
The discussion on mech wear really makes little sense. Most of the high use circuits are designed to cut the power before a the plunger hits the (generally replaceable) coil stop anyway. When you add that to the fact that a game has probably 50,000 plays on it before you get it and maybe 500 after you get it in your home, well.....
Quoted from newmantjn:has probably 50,000 plays on it before you get it and maybe 500 after you get it in your home, well.....
my thinking as well...it has survived being treated like s%#! for 30 years until it became collectable...now with regular maintenance/waxing/new ball and low plays in a home environment...a little bit more power will destroy it!!
I get that. I am thinking that the warning label is meant for routes. Still, back in the 70s normal household current was 110. Now it's 120. Nice to know that when I get bored of the Normal tap I can switch over with no immediate harm.
Quoted from D-Gottlieb:I get that. I am thinking that the warning label is meant for routes. Still, back in the 70s normal household current was 110. Now it's 120. Nice to know that when I get bored of the Normal tap I can switch over with no immediate harm.
Also, if you are not an expert at soldering, it will enhance your skills.
Quoted from D-Gottlieb:Heck, I would put a connector on it.
Great comeback, but I don trust connectors. Nothing like a good solder connection.
I have a game which is wired to use the normal and high taps feeding different sections of the game. It came like it from the factory. What is that game?
Quoted from nick-the-greek:I have a game which is wired to use the normal and high taps feeding different sections of the game. It came like it from the factory. What is that game?
Quoted from CactusJack:We were helping someone a while back at on a school project that was a Chicago Coin game (title escapes me). It had two fuse holders, one for low tap, one for high or strong and normal and, as I recall, was only for playfield solenoid power. Most hi/low taps are at the transformer and effect all coils.
My Chicago Coin Casino actually had a plug jack in the inside front left by the tilt mech that all you had to do was move the plug from high to normal. I thought this was a great idea, even better then moving a fuse like on my Williams Phantom Gun Game. Too bad all the manufactures did not do that as it is a PITA to solder that damn line on the lug of the transformer back and forth.
Ken
Quoted from Straight_Shooter:Summary: If you want to give your EM a boost, an easy fix might be to change to the high tap.
Absolutely untrue. Hi-tapping doesn't do anything if the plungers, sleeves and other parts are gummy and worn (as they are usually found before shopping out). C'mon, easy fix? Hi-tap was never intended to overcome gummed up components, worn rubbers, and a dirty unwaxed playfield. Place a PBR order, get out the tools, roll up your sleeves and do that pin justice!
You will notice a difference switching to hi-tap on a properly shopped out game, but it shouldn't be necessary unless your line voltage is low.
In previous posts dealing with this subject, I've cited some examples of hi-tapping causing accelerated wear on steppers and making certain game features not function properly. I'm not a fan of hot coils etc, but to me it's more acceptable than unnecessarily hi-tapping a game. Next time I see Steve Young, I'm going to personally ask him what his feelings are on it. I find it hard to believe that he would call it a "wives tale". I know him better than to say that because maybe he wants to sell more drop targets, etc, but he's got a strong engineering mind, and is pretty much a purist when it comes to pinball machines and many other things. He does sell those curs-ed hot coils though, but I guess he's just catering to public demand as any smart business person would do.
Quoted from EM-PINMAN:My Chicago Coin Casino actually had a plug jack in the inside front left by the tilt mech that all you had to do was move the plug from high to normal. I thought this was a great idea, even better then moving a fuse like on my Williams Phantom Gun Game. Too bad all the manufactures did not do that as it is a PITA to solder that damn line on the lug of the transformer back and forth.
Ken
Some Williams woodrails have an empty fuse position on the fuse block that is used to switch to hi-tap. It's just a matter of moving the fuse to the alternate position.
Not to beat a dead horse, but I just want to set the record straight. I spoke to Steve Young today, and he told me that he never said breaking stuff on a game set to hi-tap is a "wive's tale". In fact, he went on to say (before he knew what my feelings were on the subject) that the biggest problem with hi-tapping is that it needlessly overstresses and overheats all the components of the game. By that, he meant all the non-gameplay related components. This is my biggest argument against hi-tapping a game needlessly. I didn't even think about the hold coil and coin lock-out coils which get very hot even on regular tap. Needless to say, he is not a fan of needlessly hi-tapping games, and agrees with me that it has a specific purpose which is the only time it should be used. But, y'all do what you want. They're your games.
Quoted from jrpinball:that the biggest problem with hi-tapping is that it needlessly overstresses and overheats all the components of the game.
The biggest problem I have right now is what's for dinner. That doesn't mean it is a big deal, just the biggest non-issue.
and actually, since I've probably done this to 20 games and burned up the exactly zero coils, this tells me the practice is fine.
Quoted from jrpinball:Not to beat a dead horse
uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuggggggggggh.....but here I go beating it to death!!
Quoted from newmantjn:The biggest problem I have right now is what's for dinner. That doesn't mean it is a big deal, just the biggest non-issue.
and actually, since I've probably done this to 20 games and burned up the exactly zero coils, this tells me the practice is fine.
So, what's for dinner?
Quoted from Wickerman2:uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuggggggggggh.....but here I go beating it to death!!
As I said, I'm just setting the record straight as to what PBR (Steve Young) has to say on the subject. He was a little miffed that he was misquoted as saying it's a wive's tale.
so the buzzing, burned up hold coils that could be replaced on nearly every normal tapped gottlieb from the 70's will be damaged "worse" by a little more power....Ooooooo---K. For the record, I don't have any hi-tapped games, but that seems like a wive's tale...if wive's ever discussed pinball.
Quoted from Wickerman2:I'm just giving you what the folks at PBR stated---wives tale...
You can call it what you want, but don't misquote others. Just wanted to clear up the fact that Steve Young (who knows more about pinball, engineering, manufacturing, and many other things than I certainly do) never said what he was quoted as saying here.
Quoted from jrpinball:but don't misquote others
Well, I got it 2nd hand, but let's not be over-dramatic here--this isn't a nuclear arms deal...who knows what somebody said to someone else. Also, he may have been humoring you! Regardless, you are welcome to play your game the way you want and free to use scare tactics about burned up components and I am free to be a voice of reason. Is the poor horse dead enough yet???
Hi
I like the playfield rather steep. I "must" raise the lower end sometimes - as I want to get the ball shot from the flipper-fînger securely way-up to the targets etc. on top of the playfield.
I happen to have two "Fun Fest" (a game rather "to have luck" than "skills"). One Fun Fest is normal-tapped and the other one is hi-tapped. When friends "not Pin lovers" come around and we play a couple of games: They prefer the "high-tapped" Fun Fest. To me the "5 Bumper" action is way to fast (on hi-tap) - the ball just jumps / bangs around ...
I do have an Ice Revue - I WANT the ball(s) to be kicked upwards from the bumpers THROUGH the top-Lanes: http://www.ipdb.org/showpic.pl?id=1262&picno=8897 . I raised the lower end of the playfield - and raised - and raised - almost horizontal -> the ball(s) are kicked through (now) --- but playing with an almost horizontal playfield is not much fun. The Ice Revue already is on Hi-Tap.
So I want to try (have written for / ordered) to give the BUMPERS and the SLINGSHOTS a bit more power with an "bridge rectifier / Capacitor"-Solution: To run the bumpers / slingshots by Direct-Current (same old coils). I want to make the wiring (Ice Revue) as can be seen in the schema "Fun Fest": http://www.ipdb.org/machine.cgi?id=972 . Greetings Rolf
Quoted from newmantjn:... since I've probably done this to 20 games and burned up the exactly zero coils, this tells me the practice is fine.
I've probably done it to hundreds of games, if not a thousand games!
never had any problems either.
Quoted from Wickerman2:he may have been humoring you!
Not a chance. I know Steve pretty well.
Peace, and happy pinball.
Ahhh. But can you tell when Steve is Joking? I certainly can't. Maybe he never jokes?
And, the answer is "Beef".
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