Just when I thought all was fine with the "Add Bonus When Lit" lights. Previously I had a problem where the DX relay would not activate on ball 3 and turn on the the in-lane "Add Bonus When Lit" lights. (Posted as Top Score Dx Relay Question"

With the help of paulace and currieddog I tracked it down to a weak spring on the DX solenoid plate. Things worked as they should up to a point: At ball 3 the two DX in-lane lights come on. At ball 4 two EX lights come on. At ball 5 one FX light comes on. All good so far.

The new problem: On ball five, when non-score motor points are scored (10, 100) all five lights stay on. Still good. But any points involving the score motor turns off (resets) the DX and EX and four lights go out. Yesterday only the EX (ball 4) lights went out. This morning DX and EX lights go out.

The pathway to reset the DX and EX is on photo 3. The O relay switch, U relay, P5A, K make-break, Motor 1B. But also on this path is the FX which stays on. It doesn't add up. Unless the FX stays on since the player unit is on ball 5 and the snowshoes are touching the rivets that turn on FX. Just desperate speculation, not sure how that works. Very confusing.

I've looked during ball 5 when the score motor turns and the DX and EX definitely snap back to reset position. I don't see what would cause that.

One note: When I first got the machine, during start up the AX would stay on and the score motor would run endlessly. I followed the path from AX reset to the GR+RED "O" relay switch, cleaned and gapped it. Since then the AX shuts off and the game starts properly. I mention this since that's the same pathway to reset DX, EX, and FX.

Any help? I'm just going in circles thinking about it. Henry

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I tried the paper block and had no luck, lights still went out on ball 5 score motor turning. I think I did it right. Cam 5 was the black one in the manual. There were two switches on it, very faded wires so I tried both with no luck

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Yikes! I must be missing something. The 5th cam from the steel ratchet, black cam like in the manual, only has two switches on it. My pencil points at it. The wire bundle tapers out there with no loose wires from possible missing switches. I will try your suggestion about disconnecting the score motor.

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That's good to hear - wondered where all the switches were.

Did the score motor thing. Lights go out when score motor position 1 C (level with the top disk plate) end switch (#5) opens. Colors are faded, but it looks like blue white to brown white. But that's going to open every time the score motor turns, so I'll await your opinion.

wire is white with blue speckles. other is brown with white speckles. Or maybe faded yellow speckles

As I rotate the score motor hub the "Add Bonus When Lit" lights do flicker if I go almost to the break point of the 1C switches and go back again. If I go just a touch more the Dx Ex Fx relays click off. At that point if I push in Motor Switch 1 A three out (Very hazy on colors but looks like yellow-blue and maroon-white)from the hub the blue white - orange white switch on the FX relay releases many sparks. I then have to plug in the motor again to reset all three 'X' relays for the lights to come on. Not sure what you can make of that. The relays do go off just after the 1A switches get activated by the score motor. Looking at page 7, that doesn't add up. I'll wait if I hear back from you, then try some more in the morning.

It seems the motor 1A switch (three from hub) resets them, but I need to observe more tomorrow to make sure. But before I turn the motor I can't make the 1A switch reset the relays by closing it. Needs more looking at tomorrow.

What I've now noticed: Days ago I had bent the GR+RED switch at the "O" relay closed so that the AX relay would turn off after reset. Now, If I open the GR-RED manually at ball 5 with all DX EX FX lights on and score something that makes the score motor run, all the DX EX FX lights stay on as they should. That's what I'm after! But if I leave the GR-RED switch open, next time I start a game the AX doesn't click off (nor do the DX EX FX) and the score motor runs.

Getting somewhere at last. I do notice that during start up the "O" relay never pulls in or releases. No change in state. I think if the "O" relay was working right it would pull in and close the GR-RED switch during start up to reset AX DX EX FX, then open the GR-RED so the DX EX FX lights would work properly at ball 5.

My original 'fix' of bending the switch closed did reset the AX, but also set up the DX EX up to be closed at every motor turn. I think the "O" relay is not opening and closing on schedule, if it is setting/resetting at all.

From the "O" solenoid just below the FX reset on the schematic, I see quite a long line of switches: Q AX K E , then I get lost with the O and EE make-break, ball return switch. Suggestions?

I do thank you for the help on the organization of the P1-5 switches and especially about disconnecting the score motor to test switches. Very obvious when told about it but nothing I would have come up with by myself.
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Aha - found two burnt coils down to .1 ohms when they should be 24 ohms. One of them is in line to activate the "O" relay which never pulled in. I know the "O" is good since I jumpered it from others in the pathway and it worked, also it tested to specs. I'll post again when the PBR order arrives and the coils are installed.

Thank you. Knew that, forgot that. But both coils had severe scorch marks (one so brittle that the plastic plate holding the lugs was disintegrating) and did not budge with my 9V battery hooked up. The neighbors did, but I'm going to desolder a lug and check again.

AARGH! Lesson learned and a wasted PBR order. Coil tested fine with one lug unsoldered. Back to having no clue. Still odd that the battery wouldn't make it pull in like all the others I tested.

Hi currieddog, how did you know they weren't good if they tested right?

Maybe mine are the same situation since the battery doesn't make them pull in. I could desolder the lug again and battery test it out of the circuit.

...and I do have new ones on the way.

I desoldered the lug and battery tested. Despite how bad the solenoids look they pulled in and worked. Back to the start with no clue.

I’m not sure what the restored position is. I bent the Gr-RED switch of the O relay back to closed and left it there. That is NC in the schematic, so I’ll assume that is restored. The switch does open and close if I operate the O relay manually.

Checking the start up sequence will take me some time. I do know that the score reel reset is usually incomplete. The reels will rarely all reset to zero. Some will advance just one number, then advance another number if I turn the game off, then on, then hit the start button. It may take several cycles until all are at zero. (The game will play after start up even with non zero numbers on the score reels)

I think the start up sequence is ok up to step 5. I will check, but will take time as all this is new to me.

Maybe I’m in over my head. Very discouraging having no progress after so many days. But...you have surprised me before in impossible ‘I’m giving up’ situations.

On the start up sequence (operating instructions), 1-4 are good.

#5 is not good. The score reels partially reset, the ball kicks out and the score motor stops running. Then the game will play and score normally through five balls and go to game over.

I started this thread in hopes of solving a problem with some bonus lights going off during ball 5 play (the DX and FX relays would reset).

Now I feel it is much more important to get all the score reels to reset to zero at game start.

Should I start a new thread for that problem?

Currieddog. Thanks for letting me know.

BTW just got the score reels resetting. Each reel had the same switch misadjusted. When I originally looked I saw they were all the same and thought they were all good. Live and learn.

I'd like to revive this topic as the problem persists. (I've had a time out to fix the start up sequence, spinner, and fussy KS unit.)

I think the start up is good: player one score reels now clear to zero, then player two reels clear to zero, ball in play 1 light comes on, ball kicks out to the shooter lane.

But still, at ball 5, as the score motor turns (when scoring, say, 500 points) the DX and EX reset coils engage making the four "Add Bonus When Lit" lights go out. They should stay on.

Note that during ball 4 when the score motor turns, the DX reset does NOT engage, and its two "Add Bonus When Lit" lights stay on as they should.

Looking at the schematics it seems the DX EX FX AX should only reset at game start, which they do. Why should the DX and EX reset at ball 5, and no erroneous reset of DX at ball 4?

Maybe not related, but since it's a ball 5 'thing', the bonus scored on ball 5 draining should be 2,000 points but is only 1,000 points.

So I'm stuck - can't see why DX and FX resets engage at ball 5 when they shouldn't.
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Had looked before, and also at the DX and EX relays. All the switches change state when manually activated and deactivated. Lugs and wires look good, no lugs touching, no bare/worn wires.

I'll try manually activatjng the DX and EX relays in ball 1 (so that the Add Bonus When Lit lights come on), then ball 2,3,4, each time activating the FX relay and see if it causes the DX and EX relays to reset at each ball when the score motor turns. I think that's what you meant in the quote

Tried blocking the P5A switch again to double check, no change.

In Ball 1, if I manually activate the DX EX FX relay, scoring that turns the score motor will turn all three relays and their lights off. (Engages the DX EX FX reset solenoids.) Still ball 1, if I have just the DX and EX manually activated (NOT the FX), scoring that turns the motor does not activate the DX EX reset and the lights stay on.

In Ball 2 the same happens.

Ball three with DX EX FX manually activated, when the score motor turns, EX and FX reset, not DX - I think DX stays on since the snowshoes in the player unit on the 3-position rivets keep it activated.

Ball 4, with DX EX FX manually activated, when the score motor turns, DX FX reset, but EX stays activated since the snowshoes are in contact with the player unit ball 4 rivets.

Ball 5, (the current problem) with DX EX FX activated as they normally should be, score motor turning activates the DX EX resets and their lights go out when they should stay on. (FX stays activated maybe by the snowshoe position?)

I hope that's what you were asking about and that it's not too confusing. It still seems to be something about the FX being activated that triggers all the "x"relays to reset, and it makes no sense to me. I do see in your last schematic snippet (post 33) that the FX is in the middle of the 1,000/2,000 bonus problem also. I hope if one problem is solved it takes care of the other also. Any ideas, I'm dead out of them and going in circles.

Oh - great idea -always the obvious choice once you point it out! Will report back in a bit.

blue-white to orange white NO switch. I'm trying to find it now on the schematic

Definitely 2 OR+WH going into what I called blue -white... I can convince myself is actually faded SL-BLK. The schematic in post 33.
After dinner I can check out all the other colors on that relay and make sure. Progress? I hope.

Uh oh. Some sort of hack. On the K relay an add-on speaker wire has been soldered onto the OR-WH lug. The speaker wire goes to the O relay and hooks onto the lug opposite the GR-RED, the wire on that opposite lug looks faded white-blue, I guess I believe the schematic when it say SL-BLK. I don't know why this was done, but it would seem to activate the reset of DX EX FX AX, which is the problem I'm working on. I have no clue at this point. Unsolder the speaker wire and see what happens? But it must be 'fixing' something.

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Disconnected one end of the added wire. Game would not kick out the ball on start up. Put the wire back on and it still won’t kick out the ball. Registers ball one on the back glass and features score points when I touch bumpers etc, but no ball kick out. Don’t know what to think about that. I’ll try again tomorrow.

And KS solenoid is now locked on.

False alarm: The game didn't kick the ball out since the delay relay doesn't work right. (Issue for another thread.) When the bonus should count down at ball drain or going in either kick-out hole, the game delays for 5-10 seconds...or a minute or two before reactivating. Often if I slap both flippers twice it will start the bonus count down and be fine.

I disconnected the speaker wire again. At ball 3 the DX engages and its two "Add Bonus When Lit" lights come on. At ball 4 the DX stays engaged and its lights stay on, but the EX doesn't engage and its two lights don't come on. At ball 5 the FX engages and its one light comes on. The DX lights stay on during ball 5 play (DX reset doesn't energize when the score motor turns.) Also during ball 5, if I manually engage the EX relay, its lights stay on when the score motor turns. So progress, but the EX never engages and its two lights never come on.

I think the speaker wire activated the EX relay during ball 4 to turn on its lights, but later caused problems during ball 5 by turning on the DX and EX resets. Still not right, but better. Any suggestion, or call it close enough? But I do hate to give up!

3 ball game, DX engages right from the start on ball one. Ball two, still only DX engaged. Ball three, DX an FX engaged. So EX never engages.

What is the EX relay switch? A misadjusted switch in the EX relay? They all seem good, change state when I manually operate the EX. The EX relay never engages on ball two of a 3-ball game or ball 4 of a five ball game. It never engages ever. If I engage it manually its two lights come on. I'm missing something.

On the schematic I see RED-GR on the EX solenoid lug (picture 1), follow it on the schematic to GR+RED on the player unit (picture 2). Jump those two points? I don't think that's what you meant.

I guess I'm not sure what/WHERE the

EX switch is.

I'm having a slow day and was never great at schematics to start with

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